I got a chance to watch the pilot episode back sometime late summer/early fall and really enjoyed it. I'm glad the wait is over, seemed like a fun show and I'm happy to finally be able to share it with the wife.
Did anyone like this series? I know I said I was committed... But I gave up after hearing "So when's our next caae?" one too many time.
They lost me at “police procedural.” Any interest I had of watching the show died with the format choice.
Me, too. The description sounded to me like a parody of what happens when something gets bought, and then radically changed to make it more conventional for TV.
And then once it was on, no one seemed to be watching or talking about it, at least that I heard, so I think that says something, too.
I like the show quite a bit. It's not the comic, but it never was going to be. The police procedural aspect isn't unlike the police procedural aspect of shows like Grimm, or the FBI in X-Files. It provides a weekly episodic story with subplots and character arcs that fit a larger story. It took a while to reveal the characters enough to let them start driving the bigger story, and much like other shows of this type, the police part starts either fading away or specifically servicing the larger story.
and while its tonally quite different from the comic, It does cover the similar themes. How much of lucifers rebellion was part of Gods plan. How obligated is he (or any of us) to fulfill the plans laid out for him.
The show also seems to be doing something that the comic never did, as apparently the extended contact with humans is changing the unchanging immortal characters. The demons are learning to do good, even to love, and angels are learning lust and deception. The moral ambiguity of the "lesser" humans almost seems to infect the "pure" beings, and now does that fit into Gods plan?
Under the standard TV fare there is some interesting stuff, and its slowly building an interesting mythology. And it has a fun sense of dark humor and a pretty engaging lead.
The show has been renewed, and even though its not getting a lot of mention online, it ended the season a 1.29 ratings share, and a season average of 1.47. Compare that to the Flash (1.27 at the end, 1.37 average) Arrow (.82 end, .94 average) Supergirl (1.28 end, 1.68 average), Agents of Shield (1.03 end, 1.18 average) and Gotham (1.19 end, 1.4 average) and you see its Every bit as popular as the rest of the comics TV fare. SO while people may not be talking ab out it, they are watching it. and by the season finale, more than any other comic TV show.
The takeaway here is a reminder that there is a large part of fandom that reads plenty of comics, watches plenty of movies and TV, but doesn't participate in the comics internet discussion very much. I only broke my usual silence here to make that point.
I like the show quite a bit. It's not the comic, but it never was going to be. The police procedural aspect isn't unlike the police procedural aspect of shows like Grimm, or the FBI in X-Files. It provides a weekly episodic story with subplots and character arcs that fit a larger story. It took a while to reveal the characters enough to let them start driving the bigger story, and much like other shows of this type, the police part starts either fading away or specifically servicing the larger story.
and while its tonally quite different from the comic, It does cover the similar themes. How much of lucifers rebellion was part of Gods plan. How obligated is he (or any of us) to fulfill the plans laid out for him.
The show also seems to be doing something that the comic never did, as apparently the extended contact with humans is changing the unchanging immortal characters. The demons are learning to do good, even to love, and angels are learning lust and deception. The moral ambiguity of the "lesser" humans almost seems to infect the "pure" beings, and now does that fit into Gods plan?
Under the standard TV fare there is some interesting stuff, and its slowly building an interesting mythology. And it has a fun sense of dark humor and a pretty engaging lead.
The show has been renewed, and even though its not getting a lot of mention online, it ended the season a 1.29 ratings share, and a season average of 1.47. Compare that to the Flash (1.27 at the end, 1.37 average) Arrow (.82 end, .94 average) Supergirl (1.28 end, 1.68 average), Agents of Shield (1.03 end, 1.18 average) and Gotham (1.19 end, 1.4 average) and you see its Every bit as popular as the rest of the comics TV fare. SO while people may not be talking ab out it, they are watching it. and by the season finale, more than any other comic TV show.
The takeaway here is a reminder that there is a large part of fandom that reads plenty of comics, watches plenty of movies and TV, but doesn't participate in the comics internet discussion very much. I only broke my usual silence here to make that point.
I like the show quite a bit. It's not the comic, but it never was going to be. The police procedural aspect isn't unlike the police procedural aspect of shows like Grimm, or the FBI in X-Files. It provides a weekly episodic story with subplots and character arcs that fit a larger story. It took a while to reveal the characters enough to let them start driving the bigger story, and much like other shows of this type, the police part starts either fading away or specifically servicing the larger story.
and while its tonally quite different from the comic, It does cover the similar themes. How much of lucifers rebellion was part of Gods plan. How obligated is he (or any of us) to fulfill the plans laid out for him.
The show also seems to be doing something that the comic never did, as apparently the extended contact with humans is changing the unchanging immortal characters. The demons are learning to do good, even to love, and angels are learning lust and deception. The moral ambiguity of the "lesser" humans almost seems to infect the "pure" beings, and now does that fit into Gods plan?
Under the standard TV fare there is some interesting stuff, and its slowly building an interesting mythology. And it has a fun sense of dark humor and a pretty engaging lead.
The show has been renewed, and even though its not getting a lot of mention online, it ended the season a 1.29 ratings share, and a season average of 1.47. Compare that to the Flash (1.27 at the end, 1.37 average) Arrow (.82 end, .94 average) Supergirl (1.28 end, 1.68 average), Agents of Shield (1.03 end, 1.18 average) and Gotham (1.19 end, 1.4 average) and you see its Every bit as popular as the rest of the comics TV fare. SO while people may not be talking ab out it, they are watching it. and by the season finale, more than any other comic TV show.
The takeaway here is a reminder that there is a large part of fandom that reads plenty of comics, watches plenty of movies and TV, but doesn't participate in the comics internet discussion very much. I only broke my usual silence here to make that point.
Good to know there’s more to it than the format dictates. Looking at the numbers and comparing them to how you describe the show’s evolution, I wonder if moving away from the procedural formula and into the exploration of more interesting topics hurt the show in the ratings. And more importantly, will the show producers believe that to be the case or not?
For the record, I don't watch any of the shows you listed, including Grimm. I watched X-Files during the original run, but I didn’t really start watching it until the third season and find the first season pretty awful on the whole. Lucifer could be one of those shows that evolves into something I’d want to watch, if the network gives it the time and freedom to do so. But how will I know unless people talk about the show? I watch very little TV these days—I just don’t have a lot of free time—so when I do, I'm going to spend that time primarily watching shows my friends and acquaintances say are worth checking out, and there’s plenty of those shows to pick and choose from. And I don’t think I’m alone in that.
I’m not saying it’s incumbent upon fans of a show to go online and talk up that show. No one is obligated to say anything (positive or negative) about anything, nor should they feel they are. But the reason I post on this forum is 1) because I love comics, and 2) I want the titles I specifically enjoy to have as long a life as possible, and word of mouth helps.
I dont think the numbers imply any kind of shift hurt the show, thats pretty standard attrition, every show i mentioned lost viewers in a similar fashion. Flash, Gotham Arrow and Shield are all established shows that are already settled into viewer habits, so they will typically show smaller losses unless there are some major changes in the quality of the show. Supergirl was also a new show trying to find its base audience and it also had a higher drop in numbers than the established shows. I think the show producers will likely get that. If the shows budget isn't excessive, those ratings will probably be good enough to keep it on track at least for its second season.
I dont generally talk up any show, and while i like the show a lot, its far from being a "oh god you MUST see this show" situation. Its a solid show, but i wouldn't do a blanket recommendation for everyone. Its not in everyone wheel house, especially if you expect fidelity to the source material, or respond poorly to a lot of standard TV tropes. I enjoy it. I hope it stays on, but i wont lose any sleep if it gets cancelled. Theres plenty of other stuff to watch/read etc, more than i can realistically consume, so any cancellation means a spot opens to try something else.
And I'm not as sold on the strength of word of mouth, especially in terms of TV. Super girl is a good example of this. You couldn't find a more praised show across the geek internet. Just look at the praise from CGS. but across the internet i saw tons of love and praise for the show. and yet after an amazing start fueled by a lead in from the top rated show on tv the ratings were pretty much in a freefall all season, until CBS wound up dropping the show slashing the budget and moving it to the CW. I personally dont like the show at all. I tried, but couldn't get past the midseason break.
The main reason i even replied here was really in response to the idea that the lack of discussion in itself says something, which may be true, but sometimes no one talking just means no ones talking. Its easy for online communities, either small specific ones like the CGS forums, or larger broader ones like the "comics internet" sometimes get a bit myopic and need reminding that such communities do not always reflect the wider audience.
I dont think the numbers imply any kind of shift hurt the show, thats pretty standard attrition, every show i mentioned lost viewers in a similar fashion. Flash, Gotham Arrow and Shield are all established shows that are already settled into viewer habits, so they will typically show smaller losses unless there are some major changes in the quality of the show. Supergirl was also a new show trying to find its base audience and it also had a higher drop in numbers than the established shows. I think the show producers will likely get that. If the shows budget isn't excessive, those ratings will probably be good enough to keep it on track at least for its second season.
That’s most likely the case, but there are reasons for that standard attrition every show has, and I would think that the evolution of a show from one thing to a slightly different think might play a role in that. Just spitballing really.
And I'm not as sold on the strength of word of mouth, especially in terms of TV. Super girl is a good example of this. You couldn't find a more praised show across the geek internet. Just look at the praise from CGS. but across the internet i saw tons of love and praise for the show. and yet after an amazing start fueled by a lead in from the top rated show on tv the ratings were pretty much in a freefall all season, until CBS wound up dropping the show slashing the budget and moving it to the CW. I personally dont like the show at all. I tried, but couldn't get past the midseason break.
I'm all about word of mouth. My livelihood largely depends upon it. But all word of mouth can do is convince someone to try something. It doesn’t mean that someone will like it. With Supergirl, for all the praise I saw, I saw just as much “meh,” and most of the praise centered on the lead actress more than the show as a whole. I haven’t gotten around to watching an episode yet, but nothing I read or heard made me all that anxious to do so.
While I agree that word of mouth isn’t critical when it comes to things that appeal to broad audiences, I look to the success of shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men as examples of how word of mouth can make a huge difference to a niche show, book, comic, movie.
The main reason i even replied here was really in response to the idea that the lack of discussion in itself says something, which may be true, but sometimes no one talking just means no ones talking. Its easy for online communities, either small specific ones like the CGS forums, or larger broader ones like the "comics internet" sometimes get a bit myopic and need reminding that such communities do not always reflect the wider audience.
I don’t think anyone implied that the lack of discussion said anything about the show, but I understand how someone reading the thread could take it that way. And I am fully aware of just how myopic online communities can be, even the rare ones like CGS which are more consciously aware of that sort of thing and generally try to avoid it (which is why this is the only comic forum on which I post regularly). I mean, for all the forum members who visit and browse, there are really only a couple dozen who post regularly, and I think we are all aware of that. So I, for one, am glad you spoke up. I wish more forum members would post more—the more voices the better. Lately it’s been feeling like the forum is in a bigger dive in the ratings than Supergirl.
I wish more forum members would post more—the more voices the better. Lately it’s been feeling like the forum is in a bigger dive in the ratings than Supergirl.
I agree, I worry that the url change has hindered even some of the semi-regulars from finding it. Some people don't pay attention to the url's mentioned at the end of podcasts.
I only found it because it was posted on the Facebook page. and fortunately, my browser auto fills after i type "thecomicfor". id have never have remembered the "vanilla forums" part. I actually listen to very few podcast all the way through. Usually once the main discussion ends and the wrap ups, plugs goodbyes etc begin, i stop, mostly just to move on to the meat of the next discussion (i also often skip intros too). so I didn't even remember that the url was given out at the end of the show, until a recent episode where i was just in the middle of something as the show ended and didn't have a chance to skip.
maybe some more reminders of the change during the show may help others that do the same
And I definitely agree that there is a difference between what is or isn't getting traction in discussions among comic fans, and what is actually succeeding or not in the mainstream.
Also, as I was the one that did say that I didn't hear about anyone watching or talking about it, and to me that said something, and it was great to hear a challenge to that from the informed view of someone who actually is watching it.
I just wanted to clarify, though, for what it is worth, that I didn't just mean that people here, and other self-identified comics fans, weren't digging it. It was more that I didn't hear anyone talking about it. And that it what especially dissuaded me (on top of being really turned off by the police procedural format, not as much because it was a change from comics, but because it was a move so conventional as to seem a parody of conventional TV making.
My wife works in TV, as do a lot of our friends, so I tend to rely a lot on what they are buzzing about, since there are so many strong choices out there now for content. (Truth be told, because I get so much genre and superhero content from the comics I read, I am usually much more interested in TV shows that are less "comic booky", so actually the recommendations of people outside of my comic book friends are even more influential to me. Nothing wrong with wanting good TV that is like your comics, I just find that I have most often been excited by TV that was original to TV, made with that medium fully in mind. )
Of course, seeing what is buzzing from friends and family is just another bubble, but at least that gives two bubbles to go on. So, perhaps binocular rather than myopic, but only slightly ;)
I only found it because it was posted on the Facebook page. and fortunately, my browser auto fills after i type "thecomicfor". id have never have remembered the "vanilla forums" part. I actually listen to very few podcast all the way through. Usually once the main discussion ends and the wrap ups, plugs goodbyes etc begin, i stop, mostly just to move on to the meat of the next discussion (i also often skip intros too). so I didn't even remember that the url was given out at the end of the show, until a recent episode where i was just in the middle of something as the show ended and didn't have a chance to skip.
maybe some more reminders of the change during the show may help others that do the same
Also, glad you found your way back! I agree that the plugs on the show for the forum, especially given the URL change, would be better off at the top of the show for awhile than the ending credits.
I feel like Lucifer is the DCtv fan's Agents of SHIELD... Slow start but picks up halfway through. But if you dropped it, you have a hard time believing the show got better/watchable.
I watched the entire season of Lucifer, having never read the comic other than his Sandman appearances. I have since read the first large TPB. I enjoyed both. Though vastly different, there are more similarities than you might expect at first blush.
I agree with DoctorDoom's post above. With Lucifer, as with Constantine, SHIELD, Supergirl, Dollhouse, Buffy, etc., the first half of the first season sets up the "normal" world for the show, especially for the viewer to whom everything is new. That can--and often does--give that feeling of a series' format being a killer/monster/alien-of-the-week. However, once this status quo has been firmly established, stories can burst out of that mold with the viewers having a clearer idea of how the stories affect the characters and their world.
VAGUE LUCIFER SPOILERS NEXT
In Lucifer specifically, the first handful of police-procedural episodes show him and his partner in complete control of everything in their lives (except for her inability to control him), but as the season progressed, they both lose control over just about everything. The impact of that chaos would have been lessened were it not for the initial episodes setting it up.
END VAGUE SPOILERS
Unfortunately (in some ways), with there being so much excellent television produced these days from so many sources, fans have begun to behave in exactly the manner they used to complain about. Remember when Firefly didn't get a fair shot after airing only eleven episodes? That old complaint, that the "network didn't give it a chance" (7,550 Google results when searched as an exact phrase) now applies to viewers, too. Viewer move on quickly these days (as they should if they aren't happy), and ratings often dive before the mold-breaking stories have even begun to be told. I feel that's what happened with Supergirl and Lucifer this season and for sure happened to Constantine last season.
Perhaps that means that the setup of the "normal" world doesn't need to be as long as it once did? Perhaps it's a result of the rise of the FX/AMC/HBO shorter-season model, in which no time can be wasted?
In any case, I'm glad I stuck with most of these shows, and I'm looking forward to more of them to come.
DoctorDoom
Posts: 2,586
Comments
And then once it was on, no one seemed to be watching or talking about it, at least that I heard, so I think that says something, too.
and while its tonally quite different from the comic, It does cover the similar themes. How much of lucifers rebellion was part of Gods plan. How obligated is he (or any of us) to fulfill the plans laid out for him.
The show also seems to be doing something that the comic never did, as apparently the extended contact with humans is changing the unchanging immortal characters. The demons are learning to do good, even to love, and angels are learning lust and deception. The moral ambiguity of the "lesser" humans almost seems to infect the "pure" beings, and now does that fit into Gods plan?
Under the standard TV fare there is some interesting stuff, and its slowly building an interesting mythology. And it has a fun sense of dark humor and a pretty engaging lead.
The show has been renewed, and even though its not getting a lot of mention online, it ended the season a 1.29 ratings share, and a season average of 1.47. Compare that to the Flash (1.27 at the end, 1.37 average) Arrow (.82 end, .94 average) Supergirl (1.28 end, 1.68 average), Agents of Shield (1.03 end, 1.18 average) and Gotham (1.19 end, 1.4 average) and you see its Every bit as popular as the rest of the comics TV fare. SO while people may not be talking ab out it, they are watching it. and by the season finale, more than any other comic TV show.
The takeaway here is a reminder that there is a large part of fandom that reads plenty of comics, watches plenty of movies and TV, but doesn't participate in the comics internet discussion very much. I only broke my usual silence here to make that point.
For the record, I don't watch any of the shows you listed, including Grimm. I watched X-Files during the original run, but I didn’t really start watching it until the third season and find the first season pretty awful on the whole. Lucifer could be one of those shows that evolves into something I’d want to watch, if the network gives it the time and freedom to do so. But how will I know unless people talk about the show? I watch very little TV these days—I just don’t have a lot of free time—so when I do, I'm going to spend that time primarily watching shows my friends and acquaintances say are worth checking out, and there’s plenty of those shows to pick and choose from. And I don’t think I’m alone in that.
I’m not saying it’s incumbent upon fans of a show to go online and talk up that show. No one is obligated to say anything (positive or negative) about anything, nor should they feel they are. But the reason I post on this forum is 1) because I love comics, and 2) I want the titles I specifically enjoy to have as long a life as possible, and word of mouth helps.
I dont generally talk up any show, and while i like the show a lot, its far from being a "oh god you MUST see this show" situation. Its a solid show, but i wouldn't do a blanket recommendation for everyone. Its not in everyone wheel house, especially if you expect fidelity to the source material, or respond poorly to a lot of standard TV tropes. I enjoy it. I hope it stays on, but i wont lose any sleep if it gets cancelled. Theres plenty of other stuff to watch/read etc, more than i can realistically consume, so any cancellation means a spot opens to try something else.
And I'm not as sold on the strength of word of mouth, especially in terms of TV. Super girl is a good example of this. You couldn't find a more praised show across the geek internet. Just look at the praise from CGS. but across the internet i saw tons of love and praise for the show. and yet after an amazing start fueled by a lead in from the top rated show on tv the ratings were pretty much in a freefall all season, until CBS wound up dropping the show slashing the budget and moving it to the CW. I personally dont like the show at all. I tried, but couldn't get past the midseason break.
The main reason i even replied here was really in response to the idea that the lack of discussion in itself says something, which may be true, but sometimes no one talking just means no ones talking. Its easy for online communities, either small specific ones like the CGS forums, or larger broader ones like the "comics internet" sometimes get a bit myopic and need reminding that such communities do not always reflect the wider audience.
While I agree that word of mouth isn’t critical when it comes to things that appeal to broad audiences, I look to the success of shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men as examples of how word of mouth can make a huge difference to a niche show, book, comic, movie. I don’t think anyone implied that the lack of discussion said anything about the show, but I understand how someone reading the thread could take it that way. And I am fully aware of just how myopic online communities can be, even the rare ones like CGS which are more consciously aware of that sort of thing and generally try to avoid it (which is why this is the only comic forum on which I post regularly). I mean, for all the forum members who visit and browse, there are really only a couple dozen who post regularly, and I think we are all aware of that. So I, for one, am glad you spoke up. I wish more forum members would post more—the more voices the better. Lately it’s been feeling like the forum is in a bigger dive in the ratings than Supergirl.
maybe some more reminders of the change during the show may help others that do the same
Also, as I was the one that did say that I didn't hear about anyone watching or talking about it, and to me that said something, and it was great to hear a challenge to that from the informed view of someone who actually is watching it.
I just wanted to clarify, though, for what it is worth, that I didn't just mean that people here, and other self-identified comics fans, weren't digging it. It was more that I didn't hear anyone talking about it. And that it what especially dissuaded me (on top of being really turned off by the police procedural format, not as much because it was a change from comics, but because it was a move so conventional as to seem a parody of conventional TV making.
My wife works in TV, as do a lot of our friends, so I tend to rely a lot on what they are buzzing about, since there are so many strong choices out there now for content. (Truth be told, because I get so much genre and superhero content from the comics I read, I am usually much more interested in TV shows that are less "comic booky", so actually the recommendations of people outside of my comic book friends are even more influential to me. Nothing wrong with wanting good TV that is like your comics, I just find that I have most often been excited by TV that was original to TV, made with that medium fully in mind. )
Of course, seeing what is buzzing from friends and family is just another bubble, but at least that gives two bubbles to go on. So, perhaps binocular rather than myopic, but only slightly ;)
I agree with DoctorDoom's post above. With Lucifer, as with Constantine, SHIELD, Supergirl, Dollhouse, Buffy, etc., the first half of the first season sets up the "normal" world for the show, especially for the viewer to whom everything is new. That can--and often does--give that feeling of a series' format being a killer/monster/alien-of-the-week. However, once this status quo has been firmly established, stories can burst out of that mold with the viewers having a clearer idea of how the stories affect the characters and their world.
VAGUE LUCIFER SPOILERS NEXT
In Lucifer specifically, the first handful of police-procedural episodes show him and his partner in complete control of everything in their lives (except for her inability to control him), but as the season progressed, they both lose control over just about everything. The impact of that chaos would have been lessened were it not for the initial episodes setting it up.
END VAGUE SPOILERS
Unfortunately (in some ways), with there being so much excellent television produced these days from so many sources, fans have begun to behave in exactly the manner they used to complain about. Remember when Firefly didn't get a fair shot after airing only eleven episodes? That old complaint, that the "network didn't give it a chance" (7,550 Google results when searched as an exact phrase) now applies to viewers, too. Viewer move on quickly these days (as they should if they aren't happy), and ratings often dive before the mold-breaking stories have even begun to be told. I feel that's what happened with Supergirl and Lucifer this season and for sure happened to Constantine last season.
Perhaps that means that the setup of the "normal" world doesn't need to be as long as it once did? Perhaps it's a result of the rise of the FX/AMC/HBO shorter-season model, in which no time can be wasted?
In any case, I'm glad I stuck with most of these shows, and I'm looking forward to more of them to come.