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Episode 1379 Talkback: Spotlight on The X-Men in the Bronze Age

Welcome to the Bronze Age, X-Men - hope you survive the experience! Join us, and CGS lecturer-in-residence Chris Eberle, as we pay homage to one of the most successful comebacks in comics history, recounting the X-Men's rise ('Like a Phoenix...!') from reprint limbo to the heady heights of the Claremont/Byrne/Austin run! With a special in-studio appearance by a genuine, first-printing copy of Giant-Size X-Men #1! (2:09:18)

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  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Awesome.

    (I figured I would say it out loud rather than just click the button)
  • luke52luke52 Posts: 1,392
    I love me a good Spotlight episode!
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    Looking forward to listening to this! All-New, All-Different was the run that really hooked me and made me the geek I am today.
  • mguy1977mguy1977 Posts: 801
    This is a quality episode! I started reading classic Claremont goodness about 5 years ago as a hardcore Superman DC guy that started w/ the Masterworks HCs & tpbs like From The Ashes & Fall of the Mutants to get my "X" experience along w/ the Claremont X-Men Forever volumes. Thanks for doing this episode Pants, Murd & Chris.

    Two thumbs way up!!!

    Matthew
  • krustycookkrustycook Posts: 42
    Thanks for covering my favorite series from childhood! I started collecting/reading comics just prior to the Dark Phoenix Saga. As thanks, I'd like to share my John Byrne story.

    Around 1982/83 (age 13/14), I regularly attended a number of Creation conventions, mostly in Boston. That period was arguably the high point for Marvel in the Marvel/DC rivalry. Miller and Byrne were the most highly-regarded artists and DC wasn't doing much of interest to hardcore fans and collectors, except maybe the start of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (all would change with Miller's Dark Knight). Being young, I considered Marvel vs. DC a holy war (I was a Marvel zombie in your parlance) and I was not aware of the history of artists crossing company lines.

    I was fortunate enough to attend a panel with Byrne and got picked to ask a question, one which had been burning in my 14-year-old mind. I asked "Would you ever consider going over to DC?"

    I can still vividly picture Byrne's response. My question caused a few murmurs in the crowd. But Byrne smiled, like he'd been anticipating the question. And he said, "Sure. I go over to DC all the time. (Pretends he's looking around) 'This is DC, huh? You guys are really putting out some s**t.'"

    Gratuitous laughter and applause followed. Imagine my surprise when he went over to re-invent Superman a few years later.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited June 2013
    Despite being a Marvel fan I've always avoided the X-Men like the plague. I had no desire to try and wade into that dense continuity.

    With the announcement that Bendis was taking over the two major X-books I decided now was a good time to jump in. On top of buying All New and Uncanny X-Men I've also picked up a bunch of X-Men Masterworks covering the Claremont era. I really enjoyed what I read and I can certainly see why so many people love the X-Men.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    Around 1982/83 (age 13/14), I regularly attended a number of Creation conventions, mostly in Boston. That period was arguably the high point for Marvel in the Marvel/DC rivalry. Miller and Byrne were the most highly-regarded artists and DC wasn't doing much of interest to hardcore fans and collectors, except maybe the start of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (all would change with Miller's Dark Knight). Being young, I considered Marvel vs. DC a holy war (I was a Marvel zombie in your parlance) and I was not aware of the history of artists crossing company lines.

    Well, there was also Wolfman and Perez starting up the New Teen Titans around then, too, and Levitz and Giffen on the Legion Of Super-Heroes.

    I was fortunate enough to attend a panel with Byrne and got picked to ask a question, one which had been burning in my 14-year-old mind. I asked "Would you ever consider going over to DC?"

    I can still vividly picture Byrne's response. My question caused a few murmurs in the crowd. But Byrne smiled, like he'd been anticipating the question. And he said, "Sure. I go over to DC all the time. (Pretends he's looking around) 'This is DC, huh? You guys are really putting out some s**t.'"

    What? Byrne have attitude!?

    Well, Byrne was really playing up his 'company man' image in those days -- a declared state that earned him a lot of criticism from a lot of his fellow pros and scrutiny from the fans. I wonder how he feels about that particular stance these days... from his place of exile at IDW?
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    edited June 2013
    Pants. You compared Cockrum's Polaris to Black Orchid. His design reminds me of Shrinking Violet.

    imageimage
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    A few of my all-time favorite Cockrum X-Men images.
    image
    image
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    rebis said:

    Pants. You compared Cockrum's Polaris to Black Orchid. His design reminds me of Shrinking Violet.

    There's a good reason for that: Cockrum redesigned most of the Legionnaires' costumes during his time on the series in the early 70's.
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820

    rebis said:

    Pants. You compared Cockrum's Polaris to Black Orchid. His design reminds me of Shrinking Violet.

    There's a good reason for that: Cockrum redesigned most of the Legionnaires' costumes during his time on the series in the early 70's.
    Oh yes! I'm a HUGE fan of Cockrum's Bikini Legion! One of me favorite funny books is the 100 page Superboy & the LOSH (202 & 206?) that have the Cockrum designs. Beautiful stuff.
  • krustycookkrustycook Posts: 42

    Around 1982/83 (age 13/14), I regularly attended a number of Creation conventions, mostly in Boston. That period was arguably the high point for Marvel in the Marvel/DC rivalry. Miller and Byrne were the most highly-regarded artists and DC wasn't doing much of interest to hardcore fans and collectors, except maybe the start of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (all would change with Miller's Dark Knight). Being young, I considered Marvel vs. DC a holy war (I was a Marvel zombie in your parlance) and I was not aware of the history of artists crossing company lines.

    Well, there was also Wolfman and Perez starting up the New Teen Titans around then, too, and Levitz and Giffen on the Legion Of Super-Heroes.
    Good points on both. Those 3 series were the start of the turnaround, I think. To say I was a Marvel zombie doesn't mean I didn't collect DC at all. I bought both of the books you mention. And there was a lot of good stuff in the early 70s (Adams' GL/GA) and early 60s (early JLA) from a collector's perspective. But X-Men seemed to overshadow everything in that period, except Miller's work. Seeing the X-Men guys (Byrne, Claremont, Cockrum, Austin) at a convention in that period was like meeting the Beatles or Led Zeppelin (that could be a whole separate thread).

    I was fortunate enough to attend a panel with Byrne and got picked to ask a question, one which had been burning in my 14-year-old mind. I asked "Would you ever consider going over to DC?"

    I can still vividly picture Byrne's response. My question caused a few murmurs in the crowd. But Byrne smiled, like he'd been anticipating the question. And he said, "Sure. I go over to DC all the time. (Pretends he's looking around) 'This is DC, huh? You guys are really putting out some s**t.'"

    What? Byrne have attitude!?

    Well, Byrne was really playing up his 'company man' image in those days -- a declared state that earned him a lot of criticism from a lot of his fellow pros and scrutiny from the fans. I wonder how he feels about that particular stance these days... from his place of exile at IDW?
    Like any rock star, Byrne really knew how to play to his crowd.
  • LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    I had that same early trade of The Dark Phoenix Saga that Chris mentioned. Way back in the day, it wasn't even called that, just The Uncanny X-Men, and it had an awesome Bill Sienkiewicz cover that, honestly, is the only cover that book should ever have.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    Something I always wondered about -- the character of Pierce, the cyborg member of the Hellfire Club always looked to me like he was modeled after actor Donald Sutherland, who, just a decade earlier, had one of the lead roles in the movie, M*A*S*H -- as Dr Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce. Does anyone else see this subtle homage, or am I just reading too much into this?
  • Great episode. Don't know about Donald Sutherland but I think Claremont really loves his UK tv references. Jason Wyngarde is clearly a mash up of the cult tv character Jason King and the actor who played him, Peter Wyngarde.
  • ajcasperiteajcasperite Posts: 221
    edited June 2013
    Long ago I went to a comic shop in South Jersey I think it was called "King Comics" and Cockrum and Claremont were there. This was right around Days of Future Past storyline, I think. Bought issue 100 and they signed as well as awesome Night Crawler sketch from Cockrum. Like Murd, I love me some Crawler, Wunderbar!

    Great Job Chris, Pants, Murd!

    image

    image
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    edited June 2013
    Pretty tight commentary this time around. I could only think of a few minor factoids to add:

    While Cockrum and Byrne were the main artists for most of this period, mention should be made of some terrific covers penciled by Gil Kane early on in the run, especially the iconic cover to Giant-Size X-Men #1 (inked by Cockrum), and a few drawn by George Perez. And while the creative teams were mostly consistent, there were a couple of fill-ins: one by Bill Mantlo, Bob Brown and Tom Sutton (issue #106, with a framing sequence by the regular team of Claremont and Cockrum), and one drawn by Tony DeZuniga (Issue #110). Also, Sal Buscema got his chance at the new team over in Marvel Team-Up Annual #1, where they were teamed up with Spider-Man. But except for those two early fill-ins, the series was very good about getting new material out on time each month.

    The cairns of the N'gari, the demons that the X-Men fought in issues 96 and 143, were the focal point of a series of stories by Claremont and Don Heck in Giant-Size Dracula, prior to their appearance in the X-Men.

    (Personally, I usually found any story Claremont wrote involving magic to be somehow lacking, though I'd be hard-pressed to explain why. They just never felt right to me, that he was somehow off-center with the subject. The N'gari stories were okay, and his later stories with Kulan Gath succeeded wildly, but otherwise, I usually cringed when he took the stories in that direction.)

    Cockrum and Byrne each had their favorite X-Men to 'play up': Cockrum loved the swashbuckling Nightcrawler and built up his character and repertoire of interesting abilities -- such as turning invisible in the shadows -- whereas Byrne preferred to showcase Wolverine and helped to make him the most popular member of the team. (But we all knew that.)

    The new X-Men were meant to be published on a quarterly basis in the Giant-Size format, but the plug was pulled on the GIant-Size titles right after the first issue came out -- which was why Len Wein handed the writing reins over to Claremont, because he had no time to write a monthly. The second issue of Giant-Size X-Men instead featured a reprint of the Roy Thomas - Neal Adams tale of the second rising of the Sentinels.

    The sad thing about this early run of the New X-Men during this period is that as the stories developed and reached high marks in both writing and art, the creative team was finding themselves, like Fleetwood Mac, more and more at each other's throats, with Byrne becoming more and more dissatisfied with Claremont's writing and characterizations. (But these stories, both that of the X-Men and that of the creators, are nowadays the stuff of legends.)

    Now, this last point I'm not certain is factual or not -- but I recall reading somewhere in the past that Byrne's final story ("Demon" from issue #143) was actually done a bit differently from the previous stories, in that he actually did the lion-share of the plotting and did only breakdowns so that inker Terry Austin could do more of the actual art. I don't know how true that is, and it's sure hard to tell the difference between the quality of the art in this story compared to the art of the earlier issues. If anyone else knows and can either confirm or debunk, I'd be interested to know.

    That's all I could think of off the top of my head. I don't think you guys really missed much of anything in this spotlight, as it was pretty tight and a real good listen. I look forward to the Copper Age!
  • Slightly off topic but thanks to Murd, I've had Nights in White Satin in my head all day!
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    Slightly off topic but thanks to Murd, I've had Nights in White Satin in my head all day!

    Oh, yeah! Props to the gang for bringing up the Moody Blues, one of my all-time favorite bands.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748

    Great episode. Don't know about Donald Sutherland but I think Claremont really loves his UK tv references. Jason Wyngarde is clearly a mash up of the cult tv character Jason King and the actor who played him, Peter Wyngarde.

    Well, John Byrne loves his UK TV references too. In fact, he admitted that “Days of Future Past” was unintentionally taken from “Day of the Daleks”—one of those not uncommon seemingly inspired ideas that turns out to be a foggy memory of a childhood favorite.

    Now, this last point I'm not certain is factual or not -- but I recall reading somewhere in the past that Byrne's final story ("Demon" from issue #143) was actually done a bit differently from the previous stories, in that he actually did the lion-share of the plotting and did only breakdowns so that inker Terry Austin could do more of the actual art. I don't know how true that is, and it's sure hard to tell the difference between the quality of the art in this story compared to the art of the earlier issues. If anyone else knows and can either confirm or debunk, I'd be interested to know.

    I don’t remember off the top of my head, but that sounds right. Byrne was doing a lot of the plotting well before that, and it was while working on issue #140 that he decided he couldn’t work with Chris any longer and would rather write his own material.
  • hauberkhauberk Posts: 1,511
    Great episode! I've also got to hop on the Moody Blues bandwagon... Have my copy of Days of Future Past upstairs (on vinyl).
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    Back in High School, Knights in White Satin was the only song that would make the Stoners misty.
  • NickNick Posts: 284
    Great episode as always. Like many others I've not read X-men for years due to all of the huge crossovers and multitude of titles. I always knew that the Clairemont/Byrne run was chocked full of great storylines, but WOW after listening to the issue by issue breakdown this was truly amazing stuff. I'll have to hunt down some trades and read this stuff. Amazing how many plot threads and ideas are STILL being used today. Thanks for opening my eyes to some great new (to me anyway) material.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    Nick said:

    Great episode as always. Like many others I've not read X-men for years due to all of the huge crossovers and multitude of titles. I always knew that the Clairemont/Byrne run was chocked full of great storylines, but WOW after listening to the issue by issue breakdown this was truly amazing stuff. I'll have to hunt down some trades and read this stuff. Amazing how many plot threads and ideas are STILL being used today. Thanks for opening my eyes to some great new (to me anyway) material.

    If you just want to 'dip your toe' into the waters before committing to the plunge, you might consider getting the Essential X-Men volumes to see whether or not you'd really like the series. The first volume (in glorious black and white) features reprints of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and X-Men #'s 94 - 119, which stops just shy of the Mutant X saga; that's 26 issues for fifteen bucks. Then, if you're sufficiently blown away by the stories, you can, in good conscience, commit to tracking down the smaller and more expensive color trade collections.

  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 549
    David_D said:

    Awesome.

    (I figured I would say it out loud rather than just click the button)

    Yeah I forget about those buttons....

    Pretty tight commentary this time around. I could only think of a few minor factoids to add:

    The cairns of the N'gari, the demons that the X-Men fought in issues 96 and 143, were the focal point of a series of stories by Claremont and Don Heck in Giant-Size Dracula, prior to their appearance in the X-Men.

    Nice! I love learning things like this. These episodes will forever capture the podcasters knowledge for generations to come!

    As some who has made it a goal to map and bind everything X-Men since Giant Sized to today I really appreciated this episode.

    Currently my map is up to 87 volumes but I've only bound Volumes 1, 68 (circa X-Men #200 onwards and Whedon's run) through 78 then 80-82 (Schism). (I get help and feedback on a few forums CGS, MMW, and post finalized maps on ComicBinding.com). I've included all knids of ties and other series too...

    I have never fully read any X-Men issues before the Mutant Massacre so it was a treat to read my first volume (Giant Sized to #116 using X-Men Classic issues of course). I'll post a pic of the volume later, Claremont was kind enough to write something in it for me.

    Hearing about the Heroes for Hire and the Daughters of the Dragon being written by Claremont totally put things in prespective. Not only did they constantly appear in X-Men but Misty was also Jean's roommate!

    Ok enough of my blabbering back to the episode!

    Oh and here are some pics of my binds on the CGS gallery in the Comic Binding sub forums.
  • NickNick Posts: 284



    If you just want to 'dip your toe' into the waters before committing to the plunge, you might consider getting the Essential X-Men volumes to see whether or not you'd really like the series. The first volume (in glorious black and white) features reprints of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and X-Men #'s 94 - 119, which stops just shy of the Mutant X saga; that's 26 issues for fifteen bucks. Then, if you're sufficiently blown away by the stories, you can, in good conscience, commit to tracking down the smaller and more expensive color trade collections.

    Is the coloring on the original issues good? I read the Savage Dragon Archives in B&W and thought it was a little distracting, but I'm guessing that era of comics doesn't rely on coloring as much.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    Nick said:



    If you just want to 'dip your toe' into the waters before committing to the plunge, you might consider getting the Essential X-Men volumes to see whether or not you'd really like the series. The first volume (in glorious black and white) features reprints of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and X-Men #'s 94 - 119, which stops just shy of the Mutant X saga; that's 26 issues for fifteen bucks. Then, if you're sufficiently blown away by the stories, you can, in good conscience, commit to tracking down the smaller and more expensive color trade collections.

    Is the coloring on the original issues good? I read the Savage Dragon Archives in B&W and thought it was a little distracting, but I'm guessing that era of comics doesn't rely on coloring as much.
    The coloring in the original issues was pretty decent, but that won't likely matter if you're getting the trades -- they generally re-color them, using the originals as a guide, to bring the quality up to present-day digital standards.

  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    edited June 2013
    I don't remember hearing it mentioned, but Iron Fist 15 should have been. Another Clermont & Byrne collaboration. It fits in very nicely after X-Men 108.

    image

    Wolvie's still wearing the outfit he nicked from Fang.
  • abuddahabuddah Posts: 133
    edited June 2013
    And after all those Claremont comics and Marvel dollars, where are they now in 2013?

    Marvel pays Claremont not to write comics. From any company.

    Claremont is under a Marvel exclusive contract which prevents him from writing for any other company. However Chris just wants to write his beloved X-Men. Marvel said thanks, but no thanks. So, every month Marvel cuts a check to a legendary writer to not write comics. #theMoreYouKnow
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    abuddah said:

    And after all those Claremont comics and Marvel dollars, where are they now in 2013?

    Marvel pays Claremont not to write comics. From any company.

    Claremont is under a Marvel exclusive contract which prevents him from writing for any other company. However Chris just wants to write his beloved X-Men. Marvel said thanks, but no thanks. So, every month Marvel cuts a check to a legendary writer to not write comics. #theMoreYouKnow

    Well, at least he's got a pension. That's better than most former artists and writers get.
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