Not trying to step on any toes here, but since we're discussing silver age Spidey...
If you want a little insight into the Ditko/Lee schism, check out that latest episode of Word Balloon. About 54 minutes into the show. Stay for the whole show, cause our beloved Pants makes a guest appearance.
This was a fantastic episode. I've been slowly making my way through my Spider-Man omnibus and am thoroughly enjoying it. Ditko is "my guy" when it comes to Spider-Man art, and I think that stems directly from the cartoons of the 60s, based directly on his artwork. I loved that show and have been able to enjoy it again with my youngest son recently through Netflix.
Having Mr. Eberle as a guest was wonderful - he brought a lot of passion and knowledge to the discussion. And I wanted to say that Ditko has made some of his feelings known regarding the ownership/creation of Spider-Man through one of his many self-published books.
The Avenging Mind has a number of short essays by Ditko, many of which revolve around his relationship with Spidey and Stan Lee. I read some of the essays quite a while ago - maybe a year back - so my recollection is not as sharp as I'd like it to be. Ditko's writing style is difficult to become accustomed to, but once you get past his literary idiosyncrasies, the content is fascinating, if you're a fan of comics history and want to hear it from one of those who created that history. This and other books repackaging a lot of Ditko's non-Marvel comics work can be found at the link below:
Just spent my lunch break watching Finding Steve Ditko on youtube... if you havent watched it yet, do it. Its fun. Nothing better than watching Stan Lee do the legal two step near the end as Johnathan Ross tries to get him to say that Ditko co-created Spider-Man..
just to be clear, I think Stan is awesome, and Marvel would not be what is was without him... I do wonder if there is some legal agreement between Marvel & Stan about how he has to describe the creation/ownership of Spider-Man... since he obviously is limiting his words, and repeating the same phrase "consider Ditko the co-creator" vs ditko was the co-creator...
When I was little Spider-Man was like a scary R rated movie to me. The Jackal scared the hell out of me. Spidey got the crap beat out of him in a totally different way than everyone else did. And that osborn hair!!!!!!
Spidey influenced my style too, early on. The cover of amazing 228 was the specific thing. Because of this cover I think it is important that men have genitalia in their costumes. It is a sad day when all of Peter Parker's women-friends are confronted with a bulgeless Spidey. That is the start of a sad evening for both and the core reason he has such problems with women.
@Caliban, thank you for posting the video. I watched with my son who enjoyed it as much as I did and bombarded me with questions for a good hour afterwards.
Have you ever read Deadpool #11 (from the first ongoing by Joe Kelly). For some reason or other (the reason wasn't really important), Deadpool and some of his supporting cast was transported back in time to when Amazing Spider-Man 47 took place. To make the book, they took the original artwork (well, not the original original, but you know what I mean) from that issue and photoshopped in Deadpool and Co., changed some word balloons etc. It also had a reprint of the real Amazing Spider-Man 47 as a flip-book. Your post reminded me of that because Deadpool was mocking the Osborn hair. I loved that issue. Actually, I loved Kelly's whole run on Deadpool, but that issue was definitely a highlight.
Spidey influenced my style too, early on. The cover of amazing 228 was the specific thing. Because of this cover I think it is important that men have genitalia in their costumes. It is a sad day when all of Peter Parker's women-friends are confronted with a bulgeless Spidey. That is the start of a sad evening for both and the core reason he has such problems with women.
Maybe he's not bulgeless when he's around the women-friends. Let's be honest here, if you were in a skin-tight costume, wouldn't you have a bigger bulge while you were around Black Cat than when you were around a dead body covered in spiders? Unless you're into that kind of stuff of course.
It is a well made documentary. I thought Ross was very fair with Stan Lee and, as he said, did not want to portray one of the greatest comic book creators ever as the villain of the piece. Mr Eberle and the CGS guys were also very fair in their assessment of Stan the Man who did have an awful lot of plates spinning at the same time back then.
Stan does use a bit of legalese but I also think he is trying to be fair to Ditko as well.
Great episode, so I thought I'd drop a little knowledge:
Marvel published sales numbers for Spidey starting in 1966: 340,000 (FF was selling about 330,000 and then Thor was 3rd with 296,000) Sales in 1967: 361,000 (FF was at 329,000 and Thor in 3rd at 296,000...still) Sales in 1968: 373,000 (FF at 345,000 and Thor at 295,000. See why Marvel was so dependent upon Kirby?) Sales in 1969: 372,000 (FF at 340,000 and Thor at 266,000. Marvel also switched distributors during the period covered in the 1969 sales figures)
As for Spidey being the first comic to go without the Code...um, Dell/Gold Key NEVER submitted to the code and had their own "Pledge to Parents" that they felt covered them. Since they had Disney behind them, and that Dell was a HUGE publisher of paperbacks and magazines, they didn't worry about losing distribution. It was after Marvel "broke" the code, it was rewritten to allow for comics like the Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues and for "classic" depictions of monsters like Vampires and Werewolves, which had been prohibited.
Then we get to Gwen. Gwen did not start as the same character as she became under Romita. If you read her appearances under Ditko, she was written as part of the gang that made fun of Peter Parker and was drawn and written as a VERY Bitchy character. After Ditko left, Romita drew her as more of a romance heroine, and Lee changed her personality to the typical "Lee Girlfriend" character. It's a shame, since I would have liked it if Lee had brought in a new character to be the girlfriend and kept Gwen as the rich/mean girl to give the book a little more conflict at ESU. Pretty much when Ditko left, Parker quit being the nerd who gets picked on and become more of the Charlie Brown/Woody Allen character.
As for the letters pages, Stan treated them as a sales tool, and I can't think of ANY letters in Spidey that said anything bad about Romita when he came out. It was, at worst, writers expressing that they liked Ditko, but Romita was great. I know a lot fo older fans who are split about which artist is the definitive Spider-Man artist, and I have been in a comic shop when heated enlargements have broken out over the two artists. Me? I'm a Ditko guy. Under Romita, the comic became VERY different, and while I like his issues, it's the Ditko issues I go back and re-read every couple of years, while most of the Romita issues are....well, they are good, but I'm not going out of my way to re-read them.
Looking forward to the Bronaze Age spotlight, since that's my wheel house, and while Gerry Conway's run is well thought of now...let's just say that was not the case at the time.
While on vacation with the family, I bought Amazing Spider-man #6. I was big-time into dinosaurs, prehistoric reptiles, etc. so it may have actually been the image of the Lizard on the cover that first enticed me. My Marvel zombie phase didn't start for another year and a half. I started buying Spidey regularly off the racks around issue #19 or #20 and filled in the back issue gaps as best I could. I've mentioned in another post about paying less than cover price for a decent Amazing Spider-man #1.
Ditko is my Spider-man artist. I still like the lean, lanky look. Keep in mind he has the proportional strength of a spider. When's the last time you saw a pumped up arachnid?
I was actually disappointed when the first Romita issue came out. Not so much anti-Romita as "where the heck is Ditko?" This was the first high profile creator change of the Marvel Age and naturally you had no advance warning. Of course, the first time Romita drew a pretty girl I more or less got over it.
Loved this episode guys. While I wasn't even alive during this time period, I think it is my favorite era for Spider-Man. The Ditko issues were great and he established most of the classic villains but there is just something about the Romita run. He establishes a whole world for Spider-Man that I feel no one else was ever able to do as well.
I do hope that Chris will be back for the next Spider-Man spotlight. I loved his insight on this era and want to hear what he had to say about the death of Gwen.
Great episode! I've only read a little of the Silver Age Spidey, Masterworks Vol. 2 (#11-20), which was great. I've never read any Spider-Man comics regularly, just an issue here and an issue there. After listening to this episode I want to read more. =D>
Comments
If you want a little insight into the Ditko/Lee schism, check out that latest episode of Word Balloon. About 54 minutes into the show. Stay for the whole show, cause our beloved Pants makes a guest appearance.
Having Mr. Eberle as a guest was wonderful - he brought a lot of passion and knowledge to the discussion. And I wanted to say that Ditko has made some of his feelings known regarding the ownership/creation of Spider-Man through one of his many self-published books.
The Avenging Mind has a number of short essays by Ditko, many of which revolve around his relationship with Spidey and Stan Lee. I read some of the essays quite a while ago - maybe a year back - so my recollection is not as sharp as I'd like it to be. Ditko's writing style is difficult to become accustomed to, but once you get past his literary idiosyncrasies, the content is fascinating, if you're a fan of comics history and want to hear it from one of those who created that history. This and other books repackaging a lot of Ditko's non-Marvel comics work can be found at the link below:
LINK
If you're a fan, you should definitely check the site out.
chris
just to be clear, I think Stan is awesome, and Marvel would not be what is was without him... I do wonder if there is some legal agreement between Marvel & Stan about how he has to describe the creation/ownership of Spider-Man... since he obviously is limiting his words, and repeating the same phrase "consider Ditko the co-creator" vs ditko was the co-creator...
And that osborn hair!!!!!!
Spidey influenced my style too, early on. The cover of amazing 228 was the specific thing. Because of this cover I think it is important that men have genitalia in their costumes. It is a sad day when all of Peter Parker's women-friends are confronted with a bulgeless Spidey. That is the start of a sad evening for both and the core reason he has such problems with women.
I thought Ross was very fair with Stan Lee and, as he said, did not want to portray one of the greatest comic book creators ever as the villain of the piece.
Mr Eberle and the CGS guys were also very fair in their assessment of Stan the Man who did have an awful lot of plates spinning at the same time back then.
Stan does use a bit of legalese but I also think he is trying to be fair to Ditko as well.
How many times did I say fair?
I've got that peculiarly feeling that I got smarter on a subject.....
Thanks guys!
Marvel published sales numbers for Spidey starting in 1966: 340,000 (FF was selling about 330,000 and then Thor was 3rd with 296,000)
Sales in 1967: 361,000 (FF was at 329,000 and Thor in 3rd at 296,000...still)
Sales in 1968: 373,000 (FF at 345,000 and Thor at 295,000. See why Marvel was so dependent upon Kirby?)
Sales in 1969: 372,000 (FF at 340,000 and Thor at 266,000. Marvel also switched distributors during the period covered in the 1969 sales figures)
As for Spidey being the first comic to go without the Code...um, Dell/Gold Key NEVER submitted to the code and had their own "Pledge to Parents" that they felt covered them. Since they had Disney behind them, and that Dell was a HUGE publisher of paperbacks and magazines, they didn't worry about losing distribution. It was after Marvel "broke" the code, it was rewritten to allow for comics like the Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues and for "classic" depictions of monsters like Vampires and Werewolves, which had been prohibited.
Then we get to Gwen. Gwen did not start as the same character as she became under Romita. If you read her appearances under Ditko, she was written as part of the gang that made fun of Peter Parker and was drawn and written as a VERY Bitchy character. After Ditko left, Romita drew her as more of a romance heroine, and Lee changed her personality to the typical "Lee Girlfriend" character. It's a shame, since I would have liked it if Lee had brought in a new character to be the girlfriend and kept Gwen as the rich/mean girl to give the book a little more conflict at ESU. Pretty much when Ditko left, Parker quit being the nerd who gets picked on and become more of the Charlie Brown/Woody Allen character.
As for the letters pages, Stan treated them as a sales tool, and I can't think of ANY letters in Spidey that said anything bad about Romita when he came out. It was, at worst, writers expressing that they liked Ditko, but Romita was great. I know a lot fo older fans who are split about which artist is the definitive Spider-Man artist, and I have been in a comic shop when heated enlargements have broken out over the two artists. Me? I'm a Ditko guy. Under Romita, the comic became VERY different, and while I like his issues, it's the Ditko issues I go back and re-read every couple of years, while most of the Romita issues are....well, they are good, but I'm not going out of my way to re-read them.
Looking forward to the Bronaze Age spotlight, since that's my wheel house, and while Gerry Conway's run is well thought of now...let's just say that was not the case at the time.
Ditko is my Spider-man artist. I still like the lean, lanky look. Keep in mind he has the proportional strength of a spider. When's the last time you saw a pumped up arachnid?
I was actually disappointed when the first Romita issue came out. Not so much anti-Romita as "where the heck is Ditko?" This was the first high profile creator change of the Marvel Age and naturally you had no advance warning. Of course, the first time Romita drew a pretty girl I more or less got over it.
Great episode, guys!
I do hope that Chris will be back for the next Spider-Man spotlight. I loved his insight on this era and want to hear what he had to say about the death of Gwen.