Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Secret Life of Denny O'Neil

I've been thinking about this for awhile and, with the brouhaha over the Dark Knight Returns Part 2 movie & the quote used in the announcement for Batman/Superman, it has been brought to top of mind once again.

I love many of Frank Miller's works. Sin City was fascinating. His Wolverine had a level of honor that made him a bit more interesting than the thug he was otherwise. But what made Miller was his work in the big 2: Returns, Year One, and Daredevil: Born Again.

So, when DK2 came out, I was utterly confused. The story was not the tightly written, character-driven works I'd seen earlier. It was all over the place: completely disconnected thematically and structurally from his earlier works.

But it was when All Star Batman and Robin came out that I decided there must be SOMETHING up. Whether you love ASBAR or hate it, you must acknowledge that, aside from the costumes, it shares little with Year One and Dark Knight Returns. In fact, if you break it down it shares far more with Sin City. Miller and others said all of these works exist in the same universe, but that is an obvious cheat. The Batman that uses rubber bullets on his enemies in Returns and risks his life to save the policeman that shot him in Year One would not kill 2 cops in a car as a casual act (as he does in ASBAR).

So what's different?

The three stories of Miller I love, Returns, Year One and Born Again, all feature relatively similar story arcs. They are the arcs of most stories--superhero or not. Protagonist is brought low, protagonist struggles to overcome, protagonist overcomes.

And the characters in all stories are (for the most part) not unrecognizable from real life. We see Superman in Returns, but not much until the end. We see Thor in Born Again, but only for a second. Everyone else is human, more or less.

Then I realized. Denny O'Neil. Now, while Denny may have been EIC of the Bat-books at the time Miller wrote Returns and Year One, he obviously wasn't EIC for Marvel. But he did write for Daredevil before and after Born Again, and it wouldn't be unrealistic to assume a fledgeling Miller may have received input from O'Neil.

O'Neil's Batman was not as grim or ferocious as Miller's, but he was dark and far more noir than the character had been in the Silver Age. So here's my take. I love that Miller gets credit for these stories. He's a great idea man, and loves challenging the status quo, but, as O'Neil said himself in one interview, "Frank's secret is that he doesn't like superheroes."

I don't hear O'Neil's name as much these days, but he did some great Batman stories, and I think he deserves more credit than he gets. And I think that, while Miller was great, he has never been greater than when he had O'Neil to rein him in.

What do you guys think? Do you think I'm wrong? I'd love for people to poke holes in my theory, or even come up with ideas why I'm a genius! ;)

Comments

  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    O'Neil, if I recall rightly, was the editor on Daredevil during Miller's first run, and he did indeed mentor him during that period. And, yeah, I do agree that O'Neil likely had a hand in guiding Miller away from his worse impulses.
  • That is some interesting insight into Miller's writing. In a similar fashion I think Tim Sale reigns Loeb in when the two are collaborating as well. Very interesting!
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    While I would agree that O’Neil surely had a large impact on Miller’s earliest stories, my feeling is that the quality of those stories compared to Strikes Again and AS:BAR had less to do with O’Neil reining Miller in, and more to do with Miller becoming a “superstar”—which really was cemented with “Year One” and TDKR, and only increased over time—and his future editors finding it more difficult or being less willing to do as much editing on him.

    I know O’Neil was pretty hands off when it came to his artists. I imagine, being a writer himself, that he was a little more hands on with his writers, but even so, from what I know of him, I don’t picture him as ruling with an iron fist in the way someone like Julie Schwartz did. A guiding light, sure, but more open to letting the creators create than a lot of editors.

    Look at the first Sin City, which began in ’91. Dark, yes, but not much more racy than the ’50s noir movies, and a really solid book. 1993’s Daredevil: Man Without Fear—edited by Ralph Macchio—was fantastic, and was no more wild and crazy than his previous DD work. ’95’s Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot was a lot of fun, and even got turned into a kids’ cartoon.

    Even 1998’s 300 was a pretty darn good book. (I did not care for the movie—bored me to tears—but that’s neither here nor there.) But I think this book (or perhaps That Yellow Bastard from the previous year) is where his writing really starts taking a turn. I don’t know what made the difference—maybe the siren call of Hollywood—but that’s when he started upping the ante and being more controversial and over-the-top.

    I don't think O’Neil would have made much, if any, difference if he had come back to edit Miller on Strikes Again or AS:BAR. Just my opinion.

  • greyman24greyman24 Posts: 50

    Damn. Totally makes sense. Forgot Man Without Fear, which was a great book and very much had the flavor of his early work.

    Now that I think about it, there is a pretty noticeable progression from Man w/o Fear to 300 to Dame to Kill For (which I believe was also early 90's...Wikipedia says '93, but I thought it was earlier) to That Yellow Bastard.

    It's true that what I've read of O'Neil said he was no Schwartz (and certainly no Jim Shooter), but, in my heart of hearts, I'd like to believe that Mr. O'Neil's mere presence would be enough to keep Miller in check.

    I'd like to believe that...

    image
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    Yes, Dame to Kill For was ’93, but Man without Fear was written earlier, as it was originally a screenplay for a possible DD film which Miller then adapted—and added considerably to, after JR Jr. made a suggestion for an additional scene—for comics.
  • RickMRickM Posts: 407
    I like the theory because I like O'Neil a heck of a lot, and I feel he has never gotten his due as a superb writer-editor. Perhaps he doesn't get his due because he's associated with the Bronze Age of comics, when most of the industry's output was underwhelming. But I think he belongs in that strata of people like Dick Giordano and Roy Thomas who did excellent if not groundbreaking stuff and were team players.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    RickM said:

    I like the theory because I like O'Neil a heck of a lot, and I feel he has never gotten his due as a superb writer-editor. Perhaps he doesn't get his due because he's associated with the Bronze Age of comics, when most of the industry's output was underwhelming. But I think he belongs in that strata of people like Dick Giordano and Roy Thomas who did excellent if not groundbreaking stuff and were team players.

    Depends on what you consider groundbreaking. O'Neil was one of the architects of bringing Batman back to the shadows away from the camp era, and wrote the epic Ra's al Ghul stories of the 70's. He wrote the Superman 'sandman' serial, which (temporarily) got rid of Grren K. He wrote the epic Green Lantern/Green Arrow series, drawn by Neal Adams. He wrote one of my favorite Iron Man sagas, where Stark falls off the wagon and has to rebuild himself as a person, while his business falls to a competitor and his other identity is temporarily filled in by James Rhodes. He helped engineer the powerless Wonder Woman era and the introduction of Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern. As Editor, he helmed the bat-titles through the Knightfall era and the No Man's Land saga.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314

    RickM said:

    I like the theory because I like O'Neil a heck of a lot, and I feel he has never gotten his due as a superb writer-editor. Perhaps he doesn't get his due because he's associated with the Bronze Age of comics, when most of the industry's output was underwhelming. But I think he belongs in that strata of people like Dick Giordano and Roy Thomas who did excellent if not groundbreaking stuff and were team players.

    Depends on what you consider groundbreaking. O'Neil was one of the architects of bringing Batman back to the shadows away from the camp era, and wrote the epic Ra's al Ghul stories of the 70's. He wrote the Superman 'sandman' serial, which (temporarily) got rid of Grren K. He wrote the epic Green Lantern/Green Arrow series, drawn by Neal Adams. He wrote one of my favorite Iron Man sagas, where Stark falls off the wagon and has to rebuild himself as a person, while his business falls to a competitor and his other identity is temporarily filled in by James Rhodes. He helped engineer the powerless Wonder Woman era and the introduction of Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern. As Editor, he helmed the bat-titles through the Knightfall era and the No Man's Land saga.
    Both the recent Batman movies and the Iron Man films are hugely influenced by O'Neill's work.

    HUGELY.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    I would agree with both Chuck and Stewart. O’Neil may not have been the first comic book writer to introduce social consciousness into their stories—that would probably be Steve Skeates—but he was on the forefront of that movement. And as Chuck mentioned, he was largely responsible for a lot of the character development that informs how we see Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and Iron Man today.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Especially with GL/GA & Iron Man, he presented stories in which the hero couldn't solve the problem by beating up a villain.
  • No matter what you guys think on the subject, I think the one thing that can all agree with is that Denny O' Neil's work needs to be reprinted better. I wish I had solid way to read more stuff by the fantastic writer.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    No matter what you guys think on the subject, I think the one thing that can all agree with is that Denny O' Neil's work needs to be reprinted better. I wish I had solid way to read more stuff by the fantastic writer.

    I'll agree with that.

    The aforementioned Iron Man story is about to be reprinted in trade. The GL/GA stories have been collected more than once, and his Question series has two or three trades at least. They need to collect his Azrael series.
  • That GL/GA trade is super nice, I thank the lucky stars that DC printed that. Does anybody have a clue how long his Question run is?
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    That GL/GA trade is super nice, I thank the lucky stars that DC printed that. Does anybody have a clue how long his Question run is?

    Off the top of my head without checking, I believe O'Neil wrote the entire DC run, plus a couple of issues of The Question Quarterly. Plus, he wrote the paperback novel a couple of years back which was an adaptation of the first few issues of the series, guest-starring Batman, Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon - Kung-Fu Fighter.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    That GL/GA trade is super nice, I thank the lucky stars that DC printed that. Does anybody have a clue how long his Question run is?

    I think it was 32 issues and 2 or 3 annuals. And it is an excellent read. One of my favorite series I completed out of cheap bins. It had a better than average letter column as well.
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    David_D said:

    That GL/GA trade is super nice, I thank the lucky stars that DC printed that. Does anybody have a clue how long his Question run is?

    I think it was 32 issues and 2 or 3 annuals. And it is an excellent read. One of my favorite series I completed out of cheap bins. It had a better than average letter column as well.
    I forgot the annuals! Two of which, it should also be pointed out, were crossovers with the Green Arrow and Detective Comics annuals for those years, also written by O'Neil.

    I did a quick check: the regular series ran for 36 issues, plus #37 which came out a couple of years ago as a Blackest Night crossover. The Question Quarterly ran for five issues.
  • dubbat138dubbat138 Posts: 3,200

    That GL/GA trade is super nice, I thank the lucky stars that DC printed that. Does anybody have a clue how long his Question run is?

    Off the top of my head without checking, I believe O'Neil wrote the entire DC run, plus a couple of issues of The Question Quarterly. Plus, he wrote the paperback novel a couple of years back which was an adaptation of the first few issues of the series, guest-starring Batman, Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon - Kung-Fu Fighter.

    The book was really good. I just read it last month.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Ditko may have created The Question, but O'Neill made him live.

    Same with The Creeper, come to think of it.
  • WetRats said:

    Ditko may have created The Question, but O'Neill made him live.

    Same with The Creeper, come to think of it.

    O' Neil had a Creeper run? That sounds amazing!
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    WetRats said:

    Ditko may have created The Question, but O'Neill made him live.

    Same with The Creeper, come to think of it.

    O' Neil had a Creeper run? That sounds amazing!
    O'Neil wrote the original Beware The Creeper run (six issues plus a Showcase origin) back in the 60's with Steve Ditko, under the pen name of Sergius O'Shaugnessy.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    edited July 2013
    Why do I keep giving him an extra "l"?

    That's gonna be a hard habit to break. Subconsciously from now on, I will have to sing "No L, No L".
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    WetRats said:

    Why do I keep giving him an extra "l"?

    That's gonna be a hard habit to break. Subconsciously from now on, I will have to sing "No L, No L".

    You mean like this?
  • No matter what you guys think on the subject, I think the one thing that can all agree with is that Denny O' Neil's work needs to be reprinted better. I wish I had solid way to read more stuff by the fantastic writer.

    YES. I'll be waiting patiently for a "Denny O'Neil Sale" on Comixology. ;)
  • WetRats said:

    Ditko may have created The Question, but O'Neill made him live.

    Same with The Creeper, come to think of it.

    O' Neil had a Creeper run? That sounds amazing!
    O'Neil wrote the original Beware The Creeper run (six issues plus a Showcase origin) back in the 60's with Steve Ditko, under the pen name of Sergius O'Shaugnessy.
    HOLY BATMAN I had no idea he worked with Ditko that is blowing my mind. At some point his question trades must have been reprinted. Also a Denny O Neil sale would melt my face off.
  • WetRats said:

    Ditko may have created The Question, but O'Neill made him live.

    Same with The Creeper, come to think of it.

    O' Neil had a Creeper run? That sounds amazing!
    O'Neil wrote the original Beware The Creeper run (six issues plus a Showcase origin) back in the 60's with Steve Ditko, under the pen name of Sergius O'Shaugnessy.
    HOLY BATMAN I had no idea he worked with Ditko that is blowing my mind. At some point his question trades must have been reprinted. Also a Denny O Neil sale would melt my face off.
    Well, Denny had also worked with Ditko on Dr Strange, towards the end of Ditko's run on the strip before leaving Marvel.

  • Well, Denny had also worked with Ditko on Dr Strange, towards the end of Ditko's run on the strip before leaving Marvel.

    And how was THAT?
  • greyman24 said:


    Well, Denny had also worked with Ditko on Dr Strange, towards the end of Ditko's run on the strip before leaving Marvel.

    And how was THAT?
    How is that entire Ditko strange run?
  • The entire Ditko run on Doctor Strange is the very iconic run -- it set the tone for everything that followed. It is, by turns, creepy and spectacular. It is not to be missed. (And you can get the entire thing, cheap, in the first volume of Essential Doctor Strange -- in glorious black and white!)

    Denny O'Neil only wrote two stories during that run -- the final two. And not just the final two chapters, but the final two chapters of the classic clash against Baron Mordo and the Dread Dormmamu, which had sent Strange into flight around the world. (This being Ditko, this likely meant that Ditko had actually heavily plotted the story as well as having drawn it, so O'Neil probably just did the dialogue for it.) O'Neil stayed on the strip for a few more issues with veteran Bill Everett before ceding it back to Roy Thomas and Stan Lee.
Sign In or Register to comment.