And does everyone else see my user name as Tonebone Tonebone?
No, I see your user name as Tonebone, and your avatar also as Tonebone.
You're right! I guess I have to upload a new avatar. Thanks!
Yeah, the last time Bryan worked on the website, most of the avatars disappeared. That's why I've got a Nick Cardy painting of Jackie Gleason as my avatar now.
And does everyone else see my user name as Tonebone Tonebone?
No, I see your user name as Tonebone, and your avatar also as Tonebone.
You're right! I guess I have to upload a new avatar. Thanks!
Yeah, the last time Bryan worked on the website, most of the avatars disappeared. That's why I've got a Nick Cardy painting of Jackie Gleason as my avatar now.
And does everyone else see my user name as Tonebone Tonebone?
No, I see your user name as Tonebone, and your avatar also as Tonebone.
You're right! I guess I have to upload a new avatar. Thanks!
Yeah, the last time Bryan worked on the website, most of the avatars disappeared. That's why I've got a Nick Cardy painting of Jackie Gleason as my avatar now.
#239 - Aunt Petunia leads the FF to AZ where people are dying of fear. This one was just OK.. I was honestly underwhelmed with a story that I would have expected to find pretty heartwarming. Maybe I should re-read, I might find it better the second time around. Some key plots followed up on, with us actually seeing Aunt P for the first time, and Frankie appearing to be a little overzealous with wanting to use force against the abusive father. I like the followup and intrigue.
#240 - FF with the Inhumans and relocating Attilan.. Now this one I thought would bomb for me. I've had zero exposure to the Inhumans, nothing has ever piqued my interest to read about them. I have heard of a few characters, there were a few (I can't even remember who) that intersected with Daredevil in the Nocenti run. So I was bracing for a slog here. And I had anything but. The issue totally sold me. Byrne gave enough background on a pretty large array of new-to-me characters and it was just enough that I wasn't overwhelmed or motivated to check out. There were several GREAT moments with Black Bolt in this issue in showing why he's a heroic leader and why the FF was involved. And the art in this one was probably the best of the run so far, by some margin. Really amazing visuals.
I'm not sure what my entry points might be for more reading on Black Bolt and the Inhumans or even the mutants after this, but that's why I'm posting here.. Fire away.
I did also re-download the CGS spotlight on Byrne's FF. I listened to it when it came out but have forgotten some of the issue-by-issue minutia, so I'll re-listen up until it gets to #241 and go issue by issue with the spotlight too. That'll be a fun resource to refer back to as I read this stuff.
I don't mind Joe Besser too much. He was great with Abbot & Costello, but he wasn't great at physical comedy, and didn't have that level of energy that Curly had, so he wasn't a perfect fit with the Stooges. But I like him much more than DeRita.
I don't mind Joe Besser too much. He was great with Abbot & Costello, but he wasn't great at physical comedy, and didn't have that level of energy that Curly had, so he wasn't a perfect fit with the Stooges. But I like him much more than DeRita.
Would have to agree. There seems to be very little love out there for Curly Joe DeRita.
#240 - FF with the Inhumans and relocating Attilan.. Now this one I thought would bomb for me. I've had zero exposure to the Inhumans, nothing has ever piqued my interest to read about them. I have heard of a few characters, there were a few (I can't even remember who) that intersected with Daredevil in the Nocenti run. So I was bracing for a slog here. And I had anything but. The issue totally sold me. Byrne gave enough background on a pretty large array of new-to-me characters and it was just enough that I wasn't overwhelmed or motivated to check out. There were several GREAT moments with Black Bolt in this issue in showing why he's a heroic leader and why the FF was involved. And the art in this one was probably the best of the run so far, by some margin. Really amazing visuals.
I'm not sure what my entry points might be for more reading on Black Bolt and the Inhumans or even the mutants after this, but that's why I'm posting here.. Fire away.
I've always felt John Byrne's take on the Inhumans made them intriguing again, giving us another perspective on their royal and caste society. Only Kirby handled them better in my opinion. Issue #248 brings them back for another clever tale.
I can see why Wolfman would upset but why would he have been jealous? At the same time Byrne was writing FF, wasn't Wolfman writing one of the top books at DC? (New Teen Titans)
Both Wolfman AND Wein left Marvel because of Shooter's getting rid of writer editors. One of the agreements they had in place at Marvel was that when they stepped down as Editor in Chief, they would get to edit their own books. Shooter eliminated that policy, telling them (as well as Roy Thomas) that they needed editors so that their work would coordinate more smoothly into the overall MU.
My speculation is that when they saw Byrne go off-spec with character design; make massive, wholesale changes; and reverse years of continuity, I can see why they might wonder why he had such freedom, when they were playing by the rules and were asked to give up a very hard earned perk.
#241 - The FF go to Wakanda and discover "New Rome".. The art has really kicked into high gear in the last several issues- this one was pretty incredible artwise as well, but again things seemed to wrap up very quickly with a very simple resolution. I had high hopes with the Wakanda adventure but was again underwhelmed with the story.
#242-244 - Outstanding. The FF battle Terrax and Galactus, with help from some of the Avengers, (while Spidey & DD comically sit and watch for a few panels). These three issues had it all- followed up on the building plots from the past several issues, as well as a lot of action and drama. Starting at about #240, the art has been consistently amazing.
So looking back- I'm 13 issues in.. I'd say a good 6 of those have been totally outstanding. The others definitely entertaining, with some having a few issues storywise to me. Good run overall and a lot of fun going through it in this way.
This was where Byrne really got the style of what he wanted to do and moved from stories where he was learning how to structure to putting together the type of adventures the FF was known for.
A few more issues down.. I am now through some of the ones that came highly recommended by @bralinator and others earlier in the thread.
#245 - Loved this one for the focus on Sue. The TV interview was really great and was a great way to showcase her personality. Things again got resolved pretty quick, and we never understand how incapacitated Reed, Ben and Johnny really were, they just seemed to come back to full consciousness out of nowhere.. Those are really minor gripes in this case though... Byrne weaved in some added mystery with Franklin's powers to provide some more intrigue for later. This was one of my favorite issues so far in the run.
#246-247 - Also great. Not surprised at all that these issues have the reputation they do. Loved that we don't see Doom apparently kill Zorba.. great touch there.
#248 was interesting with the Inhumans- again a quick wrap up detracts a little from my enjoyment of it but still good overall.
#249-250 with Gladiator, Skrulls impersonating X-Men, Spidey & Cap helping out, also were terrific. Loved the bit where Spidey references his appearances on the Electric Company- great nostalgia moment for me.
Art on all of these is consistently great at this point.. There is some serious detail in all of these machines in the Baxter Building and backgrounds in Latveria for example.. Great stuff.
Obviously differing opinions on this run in this thread.. For me it took a bit for things to pick up, and there's the whole trend of a quick denouement after a rich buildup thing, but that said- the past 14 months worth of comics I just read have been damn good.
I have a few runs that I personally champion as the cream of the crop, but no question that was a year plus worth of books on a level that would top a lot of creators' resumes. And more highly regarded stuff to come- I have another 43 issues left!
I have a few runs that I personally champion as the cream of the crop, but no question that was a year plus worth of books on a level that would top a lot of creators' resumes. And more highly regarded stuff to come- I have another 43 issues left!
Lucky Bastard! I WISH I could read FF #258 - #262 again for the first time. epic.
Negative Zone Saga was a LOT of fun. Especially #253 "The Quest" and #255-256.. Any time characters are in space, the art is really great.
Practical question at this point: #255-256 tie in with the Avengers (#233-234) and an issue of the Thing's solo series (#2). I made it through the story fine without Avengers #233- I think it would be fun to go back and get that one to see the Avengers/Earth side of things, but it seemed inessential.
However, am I missing key moments in Avengers #234 and Thing #2, or could I go on to FF #257 without missing something key to the FF (I suspect I could, but figured I'd ask the Byrne faithful here)?
I'll eventually track down those other issues just to see, but if they're essential, I'll pause until I can get over to an LCS.
A recent commission from John, featuring every character from his entire run on FF. Looks like the old bastard still has some chops. via johnbyrnedraws
Thanks @bralinator. I couldn't get the image to embed in my post. I'm surprised Byrne didn't take the opportunity to draw himself into that image. He was in #262.
I re-read that run not too long ago. It was my favorite run as a kid, it's basically the series that made me a lifelong comics fan.
Re-visiting it, though, I did find that it takes a bit to get going, so anyone feeling let down by the first few issues should try to stick with it.
I also found that I lost interest when she-Hulk joined. At the time, it seemed very fresh and daring. Reading it now, I found myself missing the way Byrne handled The Thing, and I think he left before getting the chance to really integrate him back into the team. So, that whole plot felt a little unfinished to me.
Byrne gets a lot of credit for moving Sue Storm forward as a character (I believe it was under his run that she went from the Invisible Girl to the Invisible Woman, but I may be wrong), but he also did a lot with Johnny Storm. Through his relationships with Frankie Raye to Alicia Masters, he actually developed a personality beyond "playboy who likes cars".
I re-read that run not too long ago. It was my favorite run as a kid, it's basically the series that made me a lifelong comics fan.
Re-visiting it, though, I did find that it takes a bit to get going, so anyone feeling let down by the first few issues should try to stick with it.
I also found that I lost interest when she-Hulk joined. At the time, it seemed very fresh and daring. Reading it now, I found myself missing the way Byrne handled The Thing, and I think he left before getting the chance to really integrate him back into the team. So, that whole plot felt a little unfinished to me.
Byrne gets a lot of credit for moving Sue Storm forward as a character (I believe it was under his run that she went from the Invisible Girl to the Invisible Woman, but I may be wrong), but he also did a lot with Johnny Storm. Through his relationships with Frankie Raye to Alicia Masters, he actually developed a personality beyond "playboy who likes cars".
I slowed down a bit- I found #2-13 of Byrne's Alpha Flight in a dollar bin so I got through #5 there (verdict: #5 was the best of the lot so far), then my DCBS order came and I had to say my goodbyes to Waid's DD and catch up on Secret Wars, (more on that later). With the FF, I'm through #261 at this point, so "The Trial of Reed Richards" is next up for me.
Interesting point re: She-Hulk. I actually like the character a lot.. some of my very earliest comics were Hulk issues and then when She-Hulk began I did read a lot of those too, plus Byrne's series in the late '80s which I thought was great. Banner largely got me into comics but I think Shulkie is really the more interesting character. I'd never read any of the stuff from her Avengers or FF tenures however, so I am looking forward to her joining.
HOWEVER.. I will add that one of my favorite things about Byrne's FF run so far, is that it has really sold me on the characters themselves and how they interact, especially the Thing. I have never been much of a team book guy before, but reading it now, I am enjoying the family aspects of it. (Probably because I have a family myself now). I'm sure I'll like the Shulkie dynamic with the FF but I think I'll really miss the Thing when he leaves in a few more issues.
I will say that getting some background of, and learning more about, the FF through the Byrne run, has actually helped me enjoy Secret Wars a bit more. I could tell early on in SW that it is in many ways a GIANT "Reed v. Doom" tale, and having read enough FF now to see the FF go up against Doom a bit, I can better appreciate the nods given to their shared history in the pages of Secret Wars. Even though I haven't read any Hickman FF/Avengers leading up to the event.
I re-read Byrne's Alpha Flight a couple years ago as well. It has its flaws, and even Byrne himself doesn't think much of it, but I was surprised at how well I remembered those stories three decades later. I guess I was at a pretty impressionable point in my life, as I remember many of the comics I read from 1983-85 better than ones I read last month.
I think in general Marvel in the '80s did a stronger job of letting the characters breathe. I'm not sure if it was part of Jim Shooter'sat times rigid dictates of what issues should contain, but I find as I
I re-read that run not too long ago. It was my favorite run as a kid, it's basically the series that made me a lifelong comics fan.
Re-visiting it, though, I did find that it takes a bit to get going, so anyone feeling let down by the first few issues should try to stick with it.
I also found that I lost interest when she-Hulk joined. At the time, it seemed very fresh and daring. Reading it now, I found myself missing the way Byrne handled The Thing, and I think he left before getting the chance to really integrate him back into the team. So, that whole plot felt a little unfinished to me.
Byrne gets a lot of credit for moving Sue Storm forward as a character (I believe it was under his run that she went from the Invisible Girl to the Invisible Woman, but I may be wrong), but he also did a lot with Johnny Storm. Through his relationships with Frankie Raye to Alicia Masters, he actually developed a personality beyond "playboy who likes cars".
I slowed down a bit- I found #2-13 of Byrne's Alpha Flight in a dollar bin so I got through #5 there (verdict: #5 was the best of the lot so far), then my DCBS order came and I had to say my goodbyes to Waid's DD and catch up on Secret Wars, (more on that later). With the FF, I'm through #261 at this point, so "The Trial of Reed Richards" is next up for me.
Interesting point re: She-Hulk. I actually like the character a lot.. some of my very earliest comics were Hulk issues and then when She-Hulk began I did read a lot of those too, plus Byrne's series in the late '80s which I thought was great. Banner largely got me into comics but I think Shulkie is really the more interesting character. I'd never read any of the stuff from her Avengers or FF tenures however, so I am looking forward to her joining.
HOWEVER.. I will add that one of my favorite things about Byrne's FF run so far, is that it has really sold me on the characters themselves and how they interact, especially the Thing. I have never been much of a team book guy before, but reading it now, I am enjoying the family aspects of it. (Probably because I have a family myself now). I'm sure I'll like the Shulkie dynamic with the FF but I think I'll really miss the Thing when he leaves in a few more issues.
I will say that getting some background of, and learning more about, the FF through the Byrne run, has actually helped me enjoy Secret Wars a bit more. I could tell early on in SW that it is in many ways a GIANT "Reed v. Doom" tale, and having read enough FF now to see the FF go up against Doom a bit, I can better appreciate the nods given to their shared history in the pages of Secret Wars. Even though I haven't read any Hickman FF/Avengers leading up to the event.
I re-read Byrne's Alpha Flight a couple years ago as well. It has its flaws, and even Byrne himself doesn't think much of it, but I was surprised at how well I remembered those stories three decades later. I guess I was at a pretty impressionable point in my life, as I remember many of the comics I read from 1983-85 better than ones I read last month.
I think in general Marvel in the '80s did a stronger job of letting the characters breathe and interact. I'm not sure if it was part of Jim Shooter's at times rigid dictates of what each issue should contain, but I find as I re-read many of them that they almost always take a page or two to advance something in the character's personal lives.
#267 is a classic. One of the very best of the run and certainly as memorable as any single issue from that era.
Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
I have skipped the tie-ins with the Avengers & Thing series, but I do want to check those out too. I suspect they'd make things flow a little better. It is a little jarring missing some Secret Wars events and just plowing through, but #266 was a flashback Thing tale which I assume was there to offer up one more chance to see him in the main FF book.
As a kid I read a smattering of Secret Wars issues when it came out, borrowed from friends.. I remember some of it. Did not read the "critical juncture" where the Thing decides to leave however. Plus frankly, I do want to see the Thing hanging on the original Battleworld in his solo series. I've become a fan of the guy. And I tend to be a bit more completist than most when I find a storyline or run that I like.
Alpha Flight is not up to the level of what I'm reading in the FF but the characters are growing on me. I like how each issue spends some solid time with one or two of them, so you get to know them. Sasquatch is next. And there's some different stuff going on- the team basically broke up right away, you see them get really hurt a la the Puck issue.
...but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more.
It has been a long time since I've read the She-Hulk issues. I wasn't thrilled about Ben being replaced on the team, but I remember warming up to Shulkie quickly. She has been one of my favs ever since.
Alpha Flight 9 & 10 are really great. Get to see Sasquatch is more than just another "strong guy". Then comes 11 & 12, which at the time, were a little shocking.
Comments
Most of the avatars went missing a while back when the site went down for maintenance.
#239 - Aunt Petunia leads the FF to AZ where people are dying of fear. This one was just OK.. I was honestly underwhelmed with a story that I would have expected to find pretty heartwarming. Maybe I should re-read, I might find it better the second time around. Some key plots followed up on, with us actually seeing Aunt P for the first time, and Frankie appearing to be a little overzealous with wanting to use force against the abusive father. I like the followup and intrigue.
#240 - FF with the Inhumans and relocating Attilan.. Now this one I thought would bomb for me. I've had zero exposure to the Inhumans, nothing has ever piqued my interest to read about them. I have heard of a few characters, there were a few (I can't even remember who) that intersected with Daredevil in the Nocenti run. So I was bracing for a slog here. And I had anything but. The issue totally sold me. Byrne gave enough background on a pretty large array of new-to-me characters and it was just enough that I wasn't overwhelmed or motivated to check out. There were several GREAT moments with Black Bolt in this issue in showing why he's a heroic leader and why the FF was involved. And the art in this one was probably the best of the run so far, by some margin. Really amazing visuals.
I'm not sure what my entry points might be for more reading on Black Bolt and the Inhumans or even the mutants after this, but that's why I'm posting here.. Fire away.
I did also re-download the CGS spotlight on Byrne's FF. I listened to it when it came out but have forgotten some of the issue-by-issue minutia, so I'll re-listen up until it gets to #241 and go issue by issue with the spotlight too. That'll be a fun resource to refer back to as I read this stuff.
Murdock sighting coming up in a few more issues..
And now back to your regular thread.
My speculation is that when they saw Byrne go off-spec with character design; make massive, wholesale changes; and reverse years of continuity, I can see why they might wonder why he had such freedom, when they were playing by the rules and were asked to give up a very hard earned perk.
#242-244 - Outstanding. The FF battle Terrax and Galactus, with help from some of the Avengers, (while Spidey & DD comically sit and watch for a few panels). These three issues had it all- followed up on the building plots from the past several issues, as well as a lot of action and drama. Starting at about #240, the art has been consistently amazing.
So looking back- I'm 13 issues in.. I'd say a good 6 of those have been totally outstanding. The others definitely entertaining, with some having a few issues storywise to me. Good run overall and a lot of fun going through it in this way.
#245 - Loved this one for the focus on Sue. The TV interview was really great and was a great way to showcase her personality. Things again got resolved pretty quick, and we never understand how incapacitated Reed, Ben and Johnny really were, they just seemed to come back to full consciousness out of nowhere.. Those are really minor gripes in this case though... Byrne weaved in some added mystery with Franklin's powers to provide some more intrigue for later. This was one of my favorite issues so far in the run.
#246-247 - Also great. Not surprised at all that these issues have the reputation they do. Loved that we don't see Doom apparently kill Zorba.. great touch there.
#248 was interesting with the Inhumans- again a quick wrap up detracts a little from my enjoyment of it but still good overall.
#249-250 with Gladiator, Skrulls impersonating X-Men, Spidey & Cap helping out, also were terrific. Loved the bit where Spidey references his appearances on the Electric Company- great nostalgia moment for me.
Art on all of these is consistently great at this point.. There is some serious detail in all of these machines in the Baxter Building and backgrounds in Latveria for example.. Great stuff.
Obviously differing opinions on this run in this thread.. For me it took a bit for things to pick up, and there's the whole trend of a quick denouement after a rich buildup thing, but that said- the past 14 months worth of comics I just read have been damn good.
I have a few runs that I personally champion as the cream of the crop, but no question that was a year plus worth of books on a level that would top a lot of creators' resumes. And more highly regarded stuff to come- I have another 43 issues left!
I WISH I could read FF #258 - #262 again for the first time. epic.
Practical question at this point:
#255-256 tie in with the Avengers (#233-234) and an issue of the Thing's solo series (#2). I made it through the story fine without Avengers #233- I think it would be fun to go back and get that one to see the Avengers/Earth side of things, but it seemed inessential.
However, am I missing key moments in Avengers #234 and Thing #2, or could I go on to FF #257 without missing something key to the FF (I suspect I could, but figured I'd ask the Byrne faithful here)?
I'll eventually track down those other issues just to see, but if they're essential, I'll pause until I can get over to an LCS.
via johnbyrnedraws
I'm surprised Byrne didn't take the opportunity to draw himself into that image. He was in #262.
Re-visiting it, though, I did find that it takes a bit to get going, so anyone feeling let down by the first few issues should try to stick with it.
I also found that I lost interest when she-Hulk joined. At the time, it seemed very fresh and daring. Reading it now, I found myself missing the way Byrne handled The Thing, and I think he left before getting the chance to really integrate him back into the team. So, that whole plot felt a little unfinished to me.
Byrne gets a lot of credit for moving Sue Storm forward as a character (I believe it was under his run that she went from the Invisible Girl to the Invisible Woman, but I may be wrong), but he also did a lot with Johnny Storm. Through his relationships with Frankie Raye to Alicia Masters, he actually developed a personality beyond "playboy who likes cars".
Interesting point re: She-Hulk. I actually like the character a lot.. some of my very earliest comics were Hulk issues and then when She-Hulk began I did read a lot of those too, plus Byrne's series in the late '80s which I thought was great. Banner largely got me into comics but I think Shulkie is really the more interesting character. I'd never read any of the stuff from her Avengers or FF tenures however, so I am looking forward to her joining.
HOWEVER.. I will add that one of my favorite things about Byrne's FF run so far, is that it has really sold me on the characters themselves and how they interact, especially the Thing. I have never been much of a team book guy before, but reading it now, I am enjoying the family aspects of it. (Probably because I have a family myself now). I'm sure I'll like the Shulkie dynamic with the FF but I think I'll really miss the Thing when he leaves in a few more issues.
I will say that getting some background of, and learning more about, the FF through the Byrne run, has actually helped me enjoy Secret Wars a bit more. I could tell early on in SW that it is in many ways a GIANT "Reed v. Doom" tale, and having read enough FF now to see the FF go up against Doom a bit, I can better appreciate the nods given to their shared history in the pages of Secret Wars. Even though I haven't read any Hickman FF/Avengers leading up to the event.
I think in general Marvel in the '80s did a stronger job of letting the characters breathe. I'm not sure if it was part of Jim Shooter'sat times rigid dictates of what issues should contain, but I find as I I re-read Byrne's Alpha Flight a couple years ago as well. It has its flaws, and even Byrne himself doesn't think much of it, but I was surprised at how well I remembered those stories three decades later. I guess I was at a pretty impressionable point in my life, as I remember many of the comics I read from 1983-85 better than ones I read last month.
I think in general Marvel in the '80s did a stronger job of letting the characters breathe and interact. I'm not sure if it was part of Jim Shooter's at times rigid dictates of what each issue should contain, but I find as I re-read many of them that they almost always take a page or two to advance something in the character's personal lives.
#267 is a classic. One of the very best of the run and certainly as memorable as any single issue from that era.
Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
I have skipped the tie-ins with the Avengers & Thing series, but I do want to check those out too. I suspect they'd make things flow a little better. It is a little jarring missing some Secret Wars events and just plowing through, but #266 was a flashback Thing tale which I assume was there to offer up one more chance to see him in the main FF book.
As a kid I read a smattering of Secret Wars issues when it came out, borrowed from friends.. I remember some of it. Did not read the "critical juncture" where the Thing decides to leave however. Plus frankly, I do want to see the Thing hanging on the original Battleworld in his solo series. I've become a fan of the guy. And I tend to be a bit more completist than most when I find a storyline or run that I like.
Alpha Flight is not up to the level of what I'm reading in the FF but the characters are growing on me. I like how each issue spends some solid time with one or two of them, so you get to know them. Sasquatch is next. And there's some different stuff going on- the team basically broke up right away, you see them get really hurt a la the Puck issue.