Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
This was where she began to blossom as a character and gain the confidence she showed in these titles.
Joining the FF evolved her from being a rushed, lightly-conceived IP-guarding character to a major player in the Marvel Universe.
Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
This was where she began to blossom as a character and gain the confidence she showed in these titles.
Joining the FF evolved her from being a rushed, lightly-conceived IP-guarding character to a major player in the Marvel Universe.
I haven't read her Avengers tenure that preceded her joining the FF, so maybe she was less developed there, but I do think the original Savage She-Hulk series set the character up better than that particular series is remembered for, and that's partly what I was referring to. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but there were some pretty unique concepts in it for the time, including the idea of Jen learning to voluntarily change into She-Hulk, and her wrestling with liking the She-Hulk personality better than her Jen personality. Some of that happened really early- I think she could voluntarily change by issue 10-11 or so.
It's clear Byrne developed her a lot more by the late 80s, so I'm interested to read these "Shulkie middle years", but the early Savage stuff does lay out plenty for creators to work with. It's easy to dismiss under the circumstances, I'll give you that, but the Lee/Buscema #1 is a good origin and historic as it was Lee's final character he created for Marvel.
Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
This was where she began to blossom as a character and gain the confidence she showed in these titles.
Joining the FF evolved her from being a rushed, lightly-conceived IP-guarding character to a major player in the Marvel Universe.
I haven't read her Avengers tenure that preceded her joining the FF, so maybe she was less developed there, but I do think the original Savage She-Hulk series set the character up better than that particular series is remembered for, and that's partly what I was referring to. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but there were some pretty unique concepts in it for the time, including the idea of Jen learning to voluntarily change into She-Hulk, and her wrestling with liking the She-Hulk personality better than her Jen personality. Some of that happened really early- I think she could voluntarily change by issue 10-11 or so.
It's clear Byrne developed her a lot more by the late 80s, so I'm interested to read these "Shulkie middle years", but the early Savage stuff does lay out plenty for creators to work with. It's easy to dismiss under the circumstances, I'll give you that, but the Lee/Buscema #1 is a good origin and historic as it was Lee's final character he created for Marvel.
I haven't read it since it came out, but my memory of that series was a fairly typical example of middle-aged men writing "romance comics" in superhero drag, just like all the other solo superheroine books of the era. My memory may be faulty.
Great stuff all through the 260s, but I'm looking forward to seeing Shulkie do a bit more. So far, it's just a lot of worrying how she'll belong and worrying that she'll be considered a "joke".. She was plenty confident (when green) in Savage, and afterward in her 2nd solo series too.
This was where she began to blossom as a character and gain the confidence she showed in these titles.
Joining the FF evolved her from being a rushed, lightly-conceived IP-guarding character to a major player in the Marvel Universe.
I haven't read her Avengers tenure that preceded her joining the FF, so maybe she was less developed there, but I do think the original Savage She-Hulk series set the character up better than that particular series is remembered for, and that's partly what I was referring to. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but there were some pretty unique concepts in it for the time, including the idea of Jen learning to voluntarily change into She-Hulk, and her wrestling with liking the She-Hulk personality better than her Jen personality. Some of that happened really early- I think she could voluntarily change by issue 10-11 or so.
It's clear Byrne developed her a lot more by the late 80s, so I'm interested to read these "Shulkie middle years", but the early Savage stuff does lay out plenty for creators to work with. It's easy to dismiss under the circumstances, I'll give you that, but the Lee/Buscema #1 is a good origin and historic as it was Lee's final character he created for Marvel.
I haven't read it since it came out, but my memory of that series was a fairly typical example of middle-aged men writing "romance comics" in superhero drag, just like all the other solo superheroine books of the era. My memory may be faulty.
Oh, there was definitely some of that. ;) Those moments were definitely not the greatest.. Just saying that some of the series had good ideas to build on.
Checking in again.. I'm through FF #274 and Alpha #13.
Alpha Flight #12-13 are something special. I've raided another dollar bin and picked up most of the rest of Byrne's run on that title.
I am still really enjoying FF- the two issue search for Reed's dad was really interesting (and I kept thinking how such a tale would be a year-long epic were it written today).
In one of the FF lettercols (maybe around 270?), Byrne chimed in with a note that readers should expect some changes in the art, that he was continuing to evolve his style, and trying to get better. I've been totally digging the art since the mid-late 230s.. with #273-274 I noticed the change he was referring to, the inks are definitely different and there's a noticable change. I still like it- I'm no art critic or expert so others may be better equipped to better describe what's going on here.
#275 is next although that stands as the one FF issue I'd read prior to diving into this whole run. Needless to say it's basically a Shulkie solo tale and a pretty funny one.
I still remember picking up Alpha Flight 12 as a kid and being floored by that ending. One of the best examples of "addition by subtraction". How do you make a mess of a team even less stable? Remove the only sane one in the bunch.
Now through FF #281 and Alpha Flight #20. Might as well take this thread home.
Still very high marks for FF. I'm now in the Byrne fan club. I have other favorites that I cherish more, but this is clearly and easily one of the great Marvel runs of the 80s, and that is saying something.
Alpha has definitely sucked me in to the drama as well. I think once the famous #12 happened the book has really been clicking. I really like the daring decisions Byrne made plotwise with it- now we have a father-daughter dynamic on the team, and some real instability with Aurora, not to mention fallout still to come from her and Northstar being totally at odds. I always like longer plot threads that get followed up on over longer periods, and the fractured nature of the team ensures that you get a lot of that, while also getting some main adventures that wrap up in 1 or 2 issues.
I did notice that the great Walt Simonson wrote and drew FF for a while- anyone read that run? Worth picking up?
I did notice that the great Walt Simonson wrote and drew FF for a while- anyone read that run? Worth picking up?
It's a lot of fun—time travel, alternate dimensions, a cool Death’s Head appearance, an alien invasion, dinosaurs, a Judge Dredd parody, Kang, Galactus, etc. A very different approach than Byrne’s, in that in never really takes itself all that seriously and has more of an “anything goes” attitude. Good stuff for the most part.
I did notice that the great Walt Simonson wrote and drew FF for a while- anyone read that run? Worth picking up?
It's a lot of fun—time travel, alternate dimensions, a cool Death’s Head appearance, an alien invasion, dinosaurs, a Judge Dredd parody, Kang, Galactus, etc. A very different approach than Byrne’s, in that in never really takes itself all that seriously and has more of an “anything goes” attitude. Good stuff for the most part.
I had a hard time getting into Simonson's run when I read it in trade a few years ago. Wasn't he saddled with stuff like She-Thing, and Ben Grimm wearing a Thing suit? It just reminded me of those times in the '90s when I'd try to dive back into comics, take a book off a shelf, and then realize I had no clue what was going on anymore. I probably should have given it more of a chance, though, because I know the guy can deliver.
I had a hard time getting into Simonson's run when I read it in trade a few years ago. Wasn't he saddled with stuff like She-Thing, and Ben Grimm wearing a Thing suit? It just reminded me of those times in the '90s when I'd try to dive back into comics, take a book off a shelf, and then realize I had no clue what was going on anymore. I probably should have given it more of a chance, though, because I know the guy can deliver.
Yeah, but he handled Sharon and Ben with a touch of humor so that it worked okay. And I can see how you might have been confused with the story jumping in randomly. But at least the FF was off on its own through most of Walt's run, so once you were in you could catch up pretty quickly. And it's worth it just to see Thing punching out a dinosaur.
In the home stretch. Through FF #286 and I finished Byrne's Alpha Flight thru #28.
#285 was a great story. Really well done all around and tugged at the heartstrings. The art in FF continues to impress and it looks like in the next issue, Joe Sinnott returns to inking the book.
This is near the end of the run, during Secret Wars II. Still strong, but it's unfortunate that storylines had really critical moments taking place in SW2 (i.e. the conclusion to the battle with the Hate Monger). I mean, everyone knows why those decisions were made.. I think my negative reaction to that has more to do with my opinion that Secret Wars II wasn't much good at all.
Some SW2 tie-ins were good (DD #223 comes to mind)- when they were treated like tie-ins, but I haven't liked major FF story beats taking place in the event series. Happened to Alpha Flight between #27 & 28 as well.. FF #286 is basically an X-Men tie in and while I know it's an important turn of events, I've never been an X-Men reader (though maybe I'll dive in to the mutants.. somewhere) so my initial reading of that issue fell a bit flat.
With all the tie-ins, the run is dragging a bit here for me, but then in the midst of all that I get an issue like #285 and Byrne gets me right back on board.
By the way- Alpha Flight 1-28 is a mighty fine run. Sold me on characters I didn't know a thing about before reading it, and I may seek out more of that series post-Byrne.
I think I enjoy Byrne's FF more overall, but I'm tempted to seek out the 5-6 issues of Incredible Hulk that Byrne did after leaving Alpha Flight just to see what he did on Hulk.. obviously his tenure on the book was very short and I remember reading that there were creative concerns which led him to leave Hulk. Maybe I mean to say "leave Marvel" because he left FF at what appears to be the same time.
It's an awesome run. Loathed the SW2 tie-ins also.
Check out this link for some surprising homages to issue #249's cover, one even by Byrne himself!
Ha- those are great. I know one of Byrne's last FF issues has a cover homage to Action Comics #1.. Can't remember the issue number but I noticed it when I laid out the last few issues into my "to read" pile.
OK- had some reading time so I'm through FF #292, one more issue left in the run!
Had to post because after the ups and downs I mentioned in my previous post, I found issues #287-292 to be again pretty spectacular and very enjoyable. 287-288 basically restores Doom, with the Beyonder showing up which was interesting (and thankfully didn't require sifting through a SW2 issue for anything).
Then the arc which followed up on the destruction of the Baxter Building opening up a path to the Negative Zone, the FF fighting Blastaar and Annihilus, Reed apparently sacrificing himself, Sue's reaction to that, and then the FF (minus Reed, plus Nick Fury) getting stuck in 1936 where Fury attempts to assassinate Hitler. Great stuff. It was resolved pretty quickly but I was really satisfied with #289-292.. that story pretty much followed up on lots of the high points of the run, all at once.
My only question- where'd Wyatt go? He just kind of vanished from the team. Shulkie seems to reference him at one point in going to see him but that was it.
So I've got one more to go.. I've heard and read about Byrne's abrupt exit, so it'll be an interesting read.
Back in those days, when we didn't have instant news via the internet, I remember Byrne's exit being so abrupt that I was a few pages into the first issue after his departure before I realized something was off. I must have really hated what followed - when I sold my FF's a few years ago, I found that my collection stopped rather abruptly after he left. I'd always assumed I stuck around for another year or so, but I think the new team only got 2-3 months out of me. Probably the first time I dropped a series I'd been reading for a substantial amount of time.
Yeah, I remember a similar experience when I read DD monthly as a kid. Born Again happened, and then the first issue after it was a bizarre tale involving a villain named Madcap. Total change in tone. Years later I read that Miller had some more stories to tell but didn't stay due to creative reasons; Engelhart was supposed to take over writing but didn't (he did one issue) also due to a spat with editorial, and then Nocenti started her run about 5-6 issues after Born Again ended. The 5-6 issues immediately following are pretty disjointed, especially considering the high points of the previous 20 or so issues.
O'Neil's leadup to Born Again was also pretty awesome IMO, and incidentally, those issues and Born Again came out right about the same time as Byrne's final FF issues did. Simonson was in the middle of his Thor run then as well. Among other great comics of the time. What an era.
It was kind of the end of an era for me as a teenage comics reader, because Byrne leaving removed a couple key titles for me. And I think The Avengers turned into a trainwreck around that time. I think maybe Teen Titans was starting its slump, too, but I may be wrong. Anyway, it's around that year that I drifted away from comics for the first time. For some reason, I didn't follow Byrne to DC.
The Avengers were just about to start the Under Seige story. It would stay really good for the next year or so. Then it would fall off the cliff and IMO not truly recover until Busiek and Perez were on the book. (Although Galactic Storm was pretty good)
The Avengers were just about to start the Under Seige story. It would stay really good for the next year or so. Then it would fall off the cliff and IMO not truly recover until Busiek and Perez were on the book. (Although Galactic Storm was pretty good)
If by "fall off the cliff", you're referring to the whole Dr. Druid becoming team leader and all the nonsense that followed, that's what I was thinking about. That and FF were the first two times I quit a beloved title in disgust, so I've always lumped them together in my memories. But it probably was a more gradual process of drifting away from comics.
And you may be right - I don't think I came near the Avengers again until Busiek and Perez.
I stayed with Avengers till issue #300. Druid was gone but seeing Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman as Avengers seemed wrong.
I think #300 was a magic number for me with Marvel. I did not go past issue 300 with Avengers, FF, or Amazing Spiderman. I did not even come close to 300 with Iron Man or X Men.
I know I went slightly past #400 with both Thor and Captain America.
Wow- that's some cliffhanger to end a run on. I confess I want to know how the arc ends up.. although I'm sure I'll be let down by the execution if it's as jarring as has been suggested above.
So- I think my impressions haven't really changed from what I previously posted, but after this maiden voyage, I'm leaving a fan of both the FF and Byrne.. and Alpha Flight too along the way. To me- that's a job well done and a strong run well deserving of the praise it gets.
SO glad you enjoyed the journey @hornhead. I confess to having a bit of envy to you being able to enjoy it for the first time and to have it all collected for you.
SO glad you enjoyed the journey @hornhead. I confess to having a bit of envy to you being able to enjoy it for the first time and to have it all collected for you.
Thanks, it was a blast! I'm lucky I found the issues in that dollar bin. SO cool to go through it with lettercols like I would have back in the day. There is a sad postscript- the shop where I found the vast majority of the run (and all of the Alpha Flight) in dollar bins has quickly and unexpectedly closed. So getting all of those issues was a really lucky find.
Unfortunately, I missed the final blowout sale- it happened so quick I didn't even know it was closing. Another good one gone.
I think I enjoy Byrne's FF more overall, but I'm tempted to seek out the 5-6 issues of Incredible Hulk that Byrne did after leaving Alpha Flight just to see what he did on Hulk.. obviously his tenure on the book was very short and I remember reading that there were creative concerns which led him to leave Hulk. Maybe I mean to say "leave Marvel" because he left FF at what appears to be the same time.
At the time, Byrne said that it was because they rejected his "all splash page" issue, which baffles me that he could create an entire comic "on spec" without checking in with his editor as to what he was going to do. He was clashing with editorial more and more as he went on...and DC offered him a form of creative control to pull him over for Superman.
wow. speechless. It's as if it only stayed open long enough for you get those issues.
Oh, I'm not cosmically that important, but a lot of that shop's back issues have found a good home with me. I definitely love a bunch of those Byrne FF issues- there were a lot of classics in the run. It also piqued my interest in the Inhumans- finally getting to the run really opened me up to lots of characters I had never really been into. It was a great "gateway drug" to a lot of Marvel that I hadn't explored, having been a "Marvel street" guy my whole life.
Wow- that's some cliffhanger to end a run on. I confess I want to know how the arc ends up.. although I'm sure I'll be let down by the execution if it's as jarring as has been suggested above.
So- I think my impressions haven't really changed from what I previously posted, but after this maiden voyage, I'm leaving a fan of both the FF and Byrne.. and Alpha Flight too along the way. To me- that's a job well done and a strong run well deserving of the praise it gets.
This warms my heart. I've always been a cheerleader for Byrne's run on the FF, and I'm really glad you got to experience it in one big go. Very happy to hear it lived up to the hype.
Even more happy to hear that you also found Alpha Flight along the way. I look back on that era of Marvel (and Byrne's time on FF and Alpha Flight especially) as a magical time in my comic reading history, a feeling that took years to find again.
PS. I wouldn't bother following Alpha Flight after Byrne left. There was the odd good issue here and there, but mostly it limped along until cancellation around #130. Bill Mantlo introduced some good concepts, and had a long run from #29-66. However I found it was hit and miss from issue to issue, and the tone changed dramatically from Byrne's run.
The quirky 2004 twelve issue series was fun (and I kind of dug the Clayton Henry artwork) The 2011 Greg Pak & Fred Van Lente attempt at a reboot was a good homage to Byrne's original vision for the team, but it didn't get any traction.
Comments
Joining the FF evolved her from being a rushed, lightly-conceived IP-guarding character to a major player in the Marvel Universe.
It's clear Byrne developed her a lot more by the late 80s, so I'm interested to read these "Shulkie middle years", but the early Savage stuff does lay out plenty for creators to work with. It's easy to dismiss under the circumstances, I'll give you that, but the Lee/Buscema #1 is a good origin and historic as it was Lee's final character he created for Marvel.
Alpha Flight #12-13 are something special. I've raided another dollar bin and picked up most of the rest of Byrne's run on that title.
I am still really enjoying FF- the two issue search for Reed's dad was really interesting (and I kept thinking how such a tale would be a year-long epic were it written today).
In one of the FF lettercols (maybe around 270?), Byrne chimed in with a note that readers should expect some changes in the art, that he was continuing to evolve his style, and trying to get better. I've been totally digging the art since the mid-late 230s.. with #273-274 I noticed the change he was referring to, the inks are definitely different and there's a noticable change. I still like it- I'm no art critic or expert so others may be better equipped to better describe what's going on here.
#275 is next although that stands as the one FF issue I'd read prior to diving into this whole run. Needless to say it's basically a Shulkie solo tale and a pretty funny one.
Still very high marks for FF. I'm now in the Byrne fan club. I have other favorites that I cherish more, but this is clearly and easily one of the great Marvel runs of the 80s, and that is saying something.
Alpha has definitely sucked me in to the drama as well. I think once the famous #12 happened the book has really been clicking. I really like the daring decisions Byrne made plotwise with it- now we have a father-daughter dynamic on the team, and some real instability with Aurora, not to mention fallout still to come from her and Northstar being totally at odds. I always like longer plot threads that get followed up on over longer periods, and the fractured nature of the team ensures that you get a lot of that, while also getting some main adventures that wrap up in 1 or 2 issues.
I did notice that the great Walt Simonson wrote and drew FF for a while- anyone read that run? Worth picking up?
#285 was a great story. Really well done all around and tugged at the heartstrings. The art in FF continues to impress and it looks like in the next issue, Joe Sinnott returns to inking the book.
This is near the end of the run, during Secret Wars II. Still strong, but it's unfortunate that storylines had really critical moments taking place in SW2 (i.e. the conclusion to the battle with the Hate Monger). I mean, everyone knows why those decisions were made.. I think my negative reaction to that has more to do with my opinion that Secret Wars II wasn't much good at all.
Some SW2 tie-ins were good (DD #223 comes to mind)- when they were treated like tie-ins, but I haven't liked major FF story beats taking place in the event series. Happened to Alpha Flight between #27 & 28 as well.. FF #286 is basically an X-Men tie in and while I know it's an important turn of events, I've never been an X-Men reader (though maybe I'll dive in to the mutants.. somewhere) so my initial reading of that issue fell a bit flat.
With all the tie-ins, the run is dragging a bit here for me, but then in the midst of all that I get an issue like #285 and Byrne gets me right back on board.
By the way- Alpha Flight 1-28 is a mighty fine run. Sold me on characters I didn't know a thing about before reading it, and I may seek out more of that series post-Byrne.
I think I enjoy Byrne's FF more overall, but I'm tempted to seek out the 5-6 issues of Incredible Hulk that Byrne did after leaving Alpha Flight just to see what he did on Hulk.. obviously his tenure on the book was very short and I remember reading that there were creative concerns which led him to leave Hulk. Maybe I mean to say "leave Marvel" because he left FF at what appears to be the same time.
Check out this link for some surprising homages to issue #249's cover, one even by Byrne himself!
Had to post because after the ups and downs I mentioned in my previous post, I found issues #287-292 to be again pretty spectacular and very enjoyable. 287-288 basically restores Doom, with the Beyonder showing up which was interesting (and thankfully didn't require sifting through a SW2 issue for anything).
Then the arc which followed up on the destruction of the Baxter Building opening up a path to the Negative Zone, the FF fighting Blastaar and Annihilus, Reed apparently sacrificing himself, Sue's reaction to that, and then the FF (minus Reed, plus Nick Fury) getting stuck in 1936 where Fury attempts to assassinate Hitler. Great stuff. It was resolved pretty quickly but I was really satisfied with #289-292.. that story pretty much followed up on lots of the high points of the run, all at once.
My only question- where'd Wyatt go? He just kind of vanished from the team. Shulkie seems to reference him at one point in going to see him but that was it.
So I've got one more to go.. I've heard and read about Byrne's abrupt exit, so it'll be an interesting read.
O'Neil's leadup to Born Again was also pretty awesome IMO, and incidentally, those issues and Born Again came out right about the same time as Byrne's final FF issues did. Simonson was in the middle of his Thor run then as well. Among other great comics of the time. What an era.
And you may be right - I don't think I came near the Avengers again until Busiek and Perez.
I think #300 was a magic number for me with Marvel. I did not go past issue 300 with Avengers, FF, or Amazing Spiderman. I did not even come close to 300 with Iron Man or X Men.
I know I went slightly past #400 with both Thor and Captain America.
Wow- that's some cliffhanger to end a run on. I confess I want to know how the arc ends up.. although I'm sure I'll be let down by the execution if it's as jarring as has been suggested above.
So- I think my impressions haven't really changed from what I previously posted, but after this maiden voyage, I'm leaving a fan of both the FF and Byrne.. and Alpha Flight too along the way. To me- that's a job well done and a strong run well deserving of the praise it gets.
Unfortunately, I missed the final blowout sale- it happened so quick I didn't even know it was closing. Another good one gone.
I've always been a cheerleader for Byrne's run on the FF, and I'm really glad you got to experience it in one big go. Very happy to hear it lived up to the hype.
Even more happy to hear that you also found Alpha Flight along the way.
I look back on that era of Marvel (and Byrne's time on FF and Alpha Flight especially) as a magical time in my comic reading history, a feeling that took years to find again.
PS. I wouldn't bother following Alpha Flight after Byrne left. There was the odd good issue here and there, but mostly it limped along until cancellation around #130. Bill Mantlo introduced some good concepts, and had a long run from #29-66. However I found it was hit and miss from issue to issue, and the tone changed dramatically from Byrne's run.
The quirky 2004 twelve issue series was fun (and I kind of dug the Clayton Henry artwork)
The 2011 Greg Pak & Fred Van Lente attempt at a reboot was a good homage to Byrne's original vision for the team, but it didn't get any traction.