Although he did the music for TDK trilogy & the studio was using the coattails of an older, worn out Batman from Nolan's movies, this is essentially a character reboot. That means new theme.
M
I can accept that for the TDK trilogy music, but the MoS theme is also absent from BvS which seems like a egregious oversight.
I gave the movie 2.75 out of 5 Batarangs. The low ratings by critics are kind of surprising to me but the film is a better entertainment vehicle than an actual film so that explains the box office. The first half of the movie really bored me and I kept looking at the time. The action in the second half picked things up considerably for me. I didn't hate the movie but nothing makes me want to go back to the theater to see it. I will wait and buy a used blu ray from my video store. I did enjoy the fight especially since Batman made Superman tap out.
I resigned myself to the fact that I do not like Snyder's take on Superman and outside of Justice League I don't have to go to any movie he directs Superman but that's okay. I look forward to Batfleck's take on the role. I'll look past the killing I guess but I thought Nolan and Burton's Batmans killed people. Wonder Woman looks great. So there's that. I got a Flash already. I'll see how Aquaman looks.
And the movie is dark and depressing and I am not saying that it has to be Guardians or Ant-man but just give maybe lighten it up just a smidge. Not a yuckfest but Cavill's Superman is so devoid of a personality.
I don't think I can tell someone to not see it or run to see it but it is a bit of comic and movie history that people need to see and judge for themselves.
There are definitely confirmed Batman kills in Burton's movies, arguably in Nolan's films. Neither director, however, claimed to have the truest comic book version on film. When I saw the Batmobile had guns on the hood, I knew Snyder's claim was false.
M
Snyder's Batman loves guns so much he even dreams about using them.
Superman's killing of General Zod in "Man of Steel" nauseated me (then, and probably always will) but he's really the only superhero which I'd never accept as someone who intentionally kills, regardless of my age and/or the society I find myself in, etc. As for other superheroes? While I'm personally not thrilled with killing in general, I get that times change, and perspectives change - as well as what audiences want out of these characters and settings. And if you tell me that you are making a movie inspired by Miller's *The Dark Knight Returns* ? - then of course I won't be surprised by this BvS Batman's more laissez-faire attitude with regard to the lives of murderous criminals. He even has a line to Alfred where he flatout states "we've always been criminals," highlighting how blurred the lines have been and continue to be for this Batman. That's one point of the film: that this Batman has grown too dark, and needs his original m.o. refocused. He needs character growth! (like most major characters in most movies lol, and like Superman in this one needs/gets, too.) Again, that "Martha is your mom's name" beat at the end was shot ham-fistedly, I admit. But the idea behind it was cool, and essential: that this Batman needed a humanity reboot. He needed to be reminded of what his parents' murders taught him about the taking of life, and his true purpose. Later on, would I have preferred it if BvS Batman shot the KGBeast in the knee, or hand? I don't know how believable that would've been to the situation. But he easily could have shot KGB in the chest, too - and KGB could have exploded in blood and crashed back through a stained glass window as Batman shields Martha and continues with the scene as we got. I see Batman's shooting of the flame thrower tank, instead, as a step (albeit a small, slow one) in the right direction. He just wanted to set KGB on fire, seriously enough to neutralize him for Batman to get Martha out of harm's way. That the fire engulfed and killed KGB is more poetic justice - or Snyder's, or the audience's - than Batman's.
Have seen it twice now. It suffered greatly from over-promotion, and this film is not at all what we were expecting or hoping for (i.e. easy-to-comprehend fun for kids and adults)… but once you divorce yourself of all that, what you are left with is a surprisingly interesting and realistic take on what superheroes mean to us, as well as what governments, the media, and our own identities (mortal and metahuman alike) mean to us, too.
This film’s biggest enemy is not Lex, Doomsday, or Darkseid. Or hateful Marvel fans, or disaffected DC fans, or people wishing to trash the rising phenomenon of superhero films/TV. This film’s biggest enemy is its editing; specifically its super-fast pace, but also its deletion of the “Communion” scene (which really helps to show Lex’s motivations from mid-film onward) and its unnecessary inclusion of the scenes depicting the murders of Thomas & Martha Wayne and Little Bruce falling in the Batcave. The murders, especially – because every human on Earth already knows how that couple died, it takes up time in an already long film, and deleting it actually makes the latter “Martha is your mom’s name” scene much less ham-fisted. I’m telling you – if Snyder only let me delete the Wayne murders, then let me reshoot the “Martha is your mom’s name” scene with smoother dialogue? It would’ve been even cooler.
But back to the editing pace. To me, it truly feels like Snyder et al were trying to stuff 3.5 hours of story into a 2.5 hour movie. Technically, they sort of managed it; but not nearly enough to let people in a theater setting easily follow all the beats of this complex story. For home viewing? This film’s story will play much better. You can pause it, and think about it. There is lots of dialogue there which does set stuff up – it just races by you too fast in a movie theater. I can see how easy it would be for a theater viewer’s frustration to spiral, that way. And if you don’t like the movie in a more general sense, then no change in pacing will change your mind. BUT if you want to give this film the benefit of your doubt, then careful viewing – a second viewing, if you are so inclined – really does help a lot. In that sense, it’s the opposite of something like “The Avengers,” which is written and filmed for the simpler consumption of audiences young and old, in the theater and at home. I’m not saying that in a negative sense; I’m just underscoring that when a movie is produced for all ages versus an older demo, it can have a different tone and pace. I really liked “The Avengers!” But I only needed to see it once, I got it the first time around. This is how I chalk up the editing of BvS: in an era when we have grown so comfortable with the decompressed story style of comic books, and comic book films/TV? The super *compressed* story of BvS justifiably leaves many theater viewers nonplussed, even whiplashed. But if you take time to unpack the compression – there’s a whole lot of great stuff there.
People also criticize BvS for being a bad Superman story. But for me? – and he is my #1 favorite comic book hero – this film may have been the first time I could watch Superman fight Batman and have FUN with it! Some background on what you may see as my delirium…
Since news of this film’s title first broke, I had been nervous for BvS to hit theaters. As a Superman fan, I have *hated* how storytellers always, always rig his fights wth Batman – showing Superman as little more than naive, dumb muscle, and Batman as the brainy David to a super-Goliath. This conceit has been enforced especially since the huge success and influence of Miller’s 1986 *The Dark Knight Returns.* Miller’s portrayal of Superman as little more than a tool – as Reagan’s boy scout, a government stooge, and the antagonist (if not through the whole story than definitely during its climactic fight) – and Batman as the reader’s root-for protagonist to take Superman down? That really killed the character of Superman for decades. As much as I respect Miller’s story for helping to reinvigorate a dying comic book industry? I have also resented TDKR specifically for hurting Superman, and heroes over antiheroes, as popular characters.
So there I was in the theater on March 24… nervously waiting for Zack Snyder to give cinematic proof to the loud Bat-fanboys who incessantly trumpet how Batman would kick Superman’s ass. And how stunned I was… to see how Snyder had GUTTED Batman in this fight (if not the film) so promoted to be “inspired” by Miller’s famous graphic novel! In BvS, Batman is NOT your lone protagonist, he is not your root-for character against Superman (unless you just hate Superman so much you want him dead anyhow). The narrative of this film presents Superman as your co-protagonist. Unlike in TDKR, we are sitting in that theater knowing that Superman is a good-hearted hero who may be more fallible than we’ve seen him before, but he is a hero, and he is no one’s puppet. The movie, unlike the graphic novel, doesn’t want Batman to succeed over Superman – it wants Batman to join forces with Superman. The movie spends 2 hours showing you that Batman is wrong about him (again, as a decades-beaten Superman fan, I gotta love that). So during the fight itself, for the first time? I was able to see it more like seeing your two younger brothers fight. They had a misunderstanding. They were so filled with piss and vinegar that they had to go at each other. But like watching your little brothers fight? You know while watching that they’ll make up and love each other. So I thank BvS for giving me that relief. This movie simply stripped off the chassis of that final fight from TDKR, but then it dropped in a surprisingly pro-Superman engine. In the end? Batman saw that Superman was right :)
Trust me, I know that by liking this film as much as I do, I am in the minority. It also helps that I see it as a mere Elseworld. (i.e., don’t worry about how things are portrayed here, its okay to like some parts over others.) I’ll fully concede that BvS doesn’t come close to 1978′s “Superman: The Movie” – or a lot of other great movies – but I’ll also go to my grave knowing this movie was not as bad as the screeching reviews have made it out to be. Hey, like what you like, hate what you hate. But I liked BvS. And hopefully this post shed some light on why.
I don't see Kent as always being inferior which is why Batman wins. Sure Kent could pick Batman up, fly into space, drop him, then vaporize Batman's body upon impact...but then he wouldn't actually be "Superman." If Kent's personality & code of conduct is changed, why can't Batman's as well?
Why could Batman use magic based weapons? What about Batman kidnaps Lois, places her in a lead-line storage container in the lowest depths of the BatCave. Kent arrives only to find Lois, Batman, & gold Kryptonite. Batman kicks a depowered Kent's ass, then closes & buries the container.
I'm kind of torn on this movie. On the one hand, great opponents make for better competition. A great DCEU movie will make MCU step it up, so DCEU will as well, so...etc.
I also really like this version of Kent. He's always been bland to me. MoS added interesting depth.
Since the sequel was greenlit, I was one of the people telling those critiquing to wait until the movie comes out.
On the other hand, I've seen my share of DC hardo fanboys just rail into MCU movies. You don't have to like them, but the constant dismissal of the movies with "they're for kids" & "they're comedies" is such bull shit.
Hearing how "DC does it right" & is superior because they employ award winning staff made the fanbase seem pompous.
It got to the point, by the first trailer for BvS:DoJ, I was disinterested in the movie.
Now, this isn't a situation where I'm a Marvel fanboy. I actually like both. In fact, with all the bravado about Avengers, I was so hoping it fell shy of breaking the box office record of TDK. When that didn't happen, I hoped TDKR buried it...that didn't happen either.
Ultimately, the overhyping for the DCEU has damn near killed my interest in the movies. From that aspect, I hope BvS:DoJ continues to struggle.
Anthony Breznican of Entertainment Weekly has seen Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and he has revealed that Aquaman, The Flash, and Cyborg will each make cameos in the movie. His snippet review goes something like this:
1. If you loved Man of Steel, you'll love BvS 2. If you didn't like Man of Steel's ending, BvS may redeem that 3. For those that didn't like Man of Steel and its darkness? Probably not for you.
As for Wonder Woman, all he said initially is that she's "fearsome." He also noted that Batman and Superman have "a moment" that will "make even the most cynical tear-up a little.
Since I was in category #3, I still don't have a lot of hope for this movie, but I certainly plant to give it a try.
"The name" got a "Wow, never really thought of that" out of me. Because honestly, for all my comic book reading, I never really bothered to make that kind of connection. So I thought it was pretty neat when they did.
Didn't really see a "tear-up" moment in it...other than Affleck *is* Batman to me now. Well, he's still behind West, but aren't they all. :)
"The name" got a "Wow, never really thought of that" out of me. Because honestly, for all my comic book reading, I never really bothered to make that kind of connection. So I thought it was pretty neat when they did.
Didn't really see a "tear-up" moment in it...other than Affleck *is* Batman to me now. Well, he's still behind West, but aren't they all. :)
Affleck has probably been the biggest obstacle for me in the DCEU moving forward. I don't have a problem with him or his acting abilities, but rather his celebrity status.
One of the things I really liked about Bale was I really had no idea who he was. It made it easy to suspend reality & see him as Batman.
I have the complete opposite issue with Affleck. He's an A-list, iconic celebrity playing an iconic character...something had to give. I can't bring myself to even buy a movie figure because I only see Affleck. I just cannot suspend reality & see Batman instead of Ben.
I have to marvel at those who notice music in movies...It rarely registers beyond the opening credits for me.
You're not alone, but as a video producer, maybe it matters more to me. This is a re-edit of the BvS trailer with the MoS Superman theme. To me, that theme music makes a distinct difference @Mr_Cosmic
For what it's worth, I'm big into the music score as well. Back when I had XM radio, I'd listen to the Cinemagic channel quite a bit. There was a one-hour show where they'd talk to the composers, and they usually had really good, insightful interviews, but it was on at a bad time for me, and I didn't get to hear it nearly as often as I'd have liked.
Music in film is like coloring in comics—it can enhance or hurt the storytelling, or it can just sit there in the background and you hardly even notice it.
I loved Wonder Woman's awesome battle drum / electric guitar theme in BvS!! Omg, when they showed that old World War I pic of her and played that music? I got chills :) Went right home and downloaded that from iTunes.
Though I didn't know who those Native Americans were standing next to her and Steve Trevor (Chris Pine) in that pic. Did Native Americans have a beef with Kaiser Wilhelm?
Okay - for those few of you who DIDN'T hate “Batman v Superman” and aren't nauseous thinking about it – can you read my take below, and tell me if you agree / disagree? It's what I got from watching the movie twice, and the deleted scene thrice :)
From Lex's helipad speech in which he gloats to Superman that he's been sending letters to Superman/Batman, manipulating both heroes – and from the homeless appearance (if not homeless status) of Wheelchair Guy Wallace Keefe – we can assume the following:
- Lex has known Superman's and Batman's secret identities for a long time now. - Homeless-looking Keefe obviously never got Bruce Wayne's checks, because Lex arranged to have them intercepted and sent back to Bruce Wayne, in an attempt to goose Bruce into seeing yet more human tragedy which Superman has brought to Bruce's world. Bruce never got these checks (when he sees them, his aide tells him something like “we didn’t want to show them to you”) though by that time, Bruce's disgust with Superman had snowballed on its own. He has a hair-trigger... which Lex finally pulls by exploding the capitol building, via which Superman gets blamed in association.
Here's how I see Lex's / Darkseid's plans and modi operandi:
As an egomaniac, Lex would naturally hate anyone whose power and reputation threatened his. Easily, he'd hate Superman; a bit less so Batman across the bay – but if Lex has been so obsessed as to track the rise of super-powered metahumans for the past 18-24 months, I can see him fearing/hating the powerful costumed vigilante Batman enough, too. So Lex planned to challenge S/B and planned to turn them against each other even before the current events of this movie (as his early interference with Wallace Keefe's checks backs up).
Once Lex steps into Zod's Kryptonian ship, though, his plans get an intergalactic boost. We see him gaining access to “the hundred thousand known worlds” – and in the deleted scene, we then see him in the thrall of / bowing down before (what we assume is) a Motherbox-wielding Steppenwolf of Apokolips. That, plus Lex's unleashing of Doomsday, a creature sure to destroy Metropolis, if not much of the world – plus Lex's dialogue re: “ringing the bell / signaling to his friends out in space” – plus the interplay of footage of the upside-down painting, now revealing that his “demon coming from above” dialogue hints not at Superman, but a devil from space… it all underscores that Darkseid has influenced Lex's actions.
Thus, here is how I see the film's last reel, through Lex's eyes: - That asshole Batman stole my kryptonite but that's great, I can let him kill Superman with it, it'll be easier to kill Batman later on anyway. (Or did I always intend for Batman to steal my kryptonite? As long as Superman winds up dead, either works.) / - I'll kidnap Martha Kent to force Superman into the fight with Batman, by this point the two hate each other's guts anyway and there is no way they won't fight to the death, and in the slim chance that Superman wins, I'll keep his mom alive so that he won't kill me. / - Meanwhile, I'll unleash this Doomsday creature for my soon-to-arrive lord, Darkseid. The creature (which actually looks really cool, contrary to what some say) will devastate Earth and weaken it for Lord Darkseid's arrival and easy domination. Yes, it sucks that Earth is my home too… but as we all learned from that *truly* laughable Superman film, “Superman II,” I am Lex Luthor and I am totally comfortable selling out humanity if it promises me a cushy spot at the right hand of the guy in charge, especially if I am in his thrall and can't think perfectly straight anyway, like David Edelstein of Vulture.com, whose savaging review of BvS was even worse than CGS’s. / - Shit. It didn’t work. They threw me in prison and shaved my head. Batman just scared the living fuck out of me, but look… he hit the wall with his Bat branding iron, he didn’t brand ME with it… that is yet more evidence of his “character growth” for the loudest voices of Big Internet who claim there is no character growth in this film, and who must prove to the world that they are correct in their hasty rush to chastise a film they haven't really thought about enough, yes the poor editing and a super-compressed story which is actually really cool didn't help much, but still! :)
Bale started out so great but over time shifted into almost parody. By the third movie he was pretty much phoning it in. I couldn't get past the voice by the end of it. "Badman" parodies online weren't helping matters much, as it kept pointing out a lot of the ridiculousness. "Swear to ME" will always remain one of the best Bat-scenes in film, but I don't know that that's enough to last the test of time.
I've always had a soft spot for Affleck. I know many people like to hate on him, and yes...Gigli...but to me he's been Hollywood's whipping boy who gets little to no respect. He's brilliant behind the camera - Argo and The Town are both excellent movies - and if he directs a Bat film as has been rumored I think it'll become one of the iconic films of the character. And he did a really good performance as Batman...this isn't the Bruce Wayne/Batman who's still young and knows everything...this is an older Batman and Shit. Has. Happened. To. Him. And Affleck made that believable.
@matt, these fans who think Marvel only makes kiddie-movies, are they aware of Daredevil and Jessica Jones on Netflix, or even FOX's Deadpool? What is their response to those properties?
@matt, these fans who think Marvel only makes kiddie-movies, are they aware of Daredevil and Jessica Jones on Netflix, or even FOX's Deadpool? What is their response to those properties?
I think they're great. Is there a reason I can't like both?
I agree. After third watch last night, I was on the same track you are, along with help from other various parts of the internet/podcasts that I've listened to.
A couple additional points:
1. Three months lapse between kryptonite rock being found in Indian Ocean to the point where Bruce tells Alfred in the Batcave that it was found three months prior.
2. The deleted scene you talk about occurs between the final battle (Bats, Supes, and WW against Doomsday) and the imprisonment (shaving of head).
Did Native Americans have a beef with Kaiser Wilhelm?
Over 10,000 Native Americans fought in World War I. Both the Onondaga and Oneida nations declared war on Germany, claiming bad treatment of Onondagas in Berlin when the war broke out. Many saw it as a way to continue the warrior traditions of their cultures. But many didn't want to have anything to do with the war.
The weird part is that most Native Americans were not considered American citizens at that time, and you had to be a citizen to be drafted. But all Native Americans were required to register for the draft regardless, and this cause great tensions between the US government and some tribes. There was even a small protest movement in Oklahoma.
@nweathington - Thanks for that. You and BvS have taught me a good lesson about America, Native Americans, and World War I! Something tells me that our upcoming "Wonder Woman" film will greatly add to popculture's near-absent take on The Great War.
@luckymustard - Thanks to you, too. As someone who likes this film, I enjoy putting all the pieces of the puzzle in place, and appreciate any help.
@matt, these fans who think Marvel only makes kiddie-movies, are they aware of Daredevil and Jessica Jones on Netflix, or even FOX's Deadpool? What is their response to those properties?
I think they're great. Is there a reason I can't like both?
I've wondered the same thing. I know you can like both.
@matt, these fans who think Marvel only makes kiddie-movies, are they aware of Daredevil and Jessica Jones on Netflix, or even FOX's Deadpool? What is their response to those properties?
Aside from calling DD "red suit Batman," I don't believe those people consider the TV shows the movie universe (probably because DC doesn't).
If you reference Deadpool, The Wolverine, DoFP, etc. the response has been "they aren't made by Disney/Marvel."
See, I throw them all together. If Marvel puts their name on the front of it (that flappy Marvel intro at the beginning), it's a Marvel movie.
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
See, I throw them all together. If Marvel puts their name on the front of it (that flappy Marvel intro at the beginning), it's a Marvel movie.
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
I agree; if it's Marvel's property, it's a Marvel movie.
See, I throw them all together. If Marvel puts their name on the front of it (that flappy Marvel intro at the beginning), it's a Marvel movie.
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
I agree; if it's Marvel's property, it's a Marvel movie.
M
I agree, whether Marvel likes it or not! (I'm looking at you Fan4stic Four)
And as for the Netflix shows existing in the MCU, you can spot some headlines in Ben Ulrich's office that read "Battle of NY," referring to the events of The Avengers, while another references the Hulk's fight against the Abomination in Harlem.
See, I throw them all together. If Marvel puts their name on the front of it (that flappy Marvel intro at the beginning), it's a Marvel movie.
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
I agree; if it's Marvel's property, it's a Marvel movie.
M
I agree, whether Marvel likes it or not! (I'm looking at you Fan4stic Four)
And as for the Netflix shows existing in the MCU, you can spot some headlines in Ben Ulrich's office that read "Battle of NY," referring to the events of The Avengers, while another references the Hulk's fight against the Abomination in Harlem.
It even has a subtle Stan Lee cameo
So it's clearly the same universe
I know it's all connected, but then again, I don't move the goalposts to support my opinion like some people do.
I've found 3 new DC hardo fanboy BvS:DoJ reasonings that I thought were cute. One is that the film "suffers from the studio's involvement instead of Snyder's vision." The shortened running time was referenced (supposedly, the studio is now considering releasing the R-rated version in theatres). This is interesting, since that same group referenced WB's policy of letting film-makers do their own thing...supposedly an advantage over Disney/Marvel.
Also, apparently, this film is "for the fans, not the critics or general audience. Fans know how to foil the plotholes." To me, making a film for just the fans to dig doesn't seem like a very business savvy plan.
Finally (and possibly my favorite), "no Marvel movie will ever hold the biggest opening weekend." I'm just hoping no other comic book movie has as big a drop in week two. Opening numbers include people locked in with advanced tickets. The proceeding weeks are a better gauge.
The beginning with Bruce Wayne trying to navigate through the destruction caused by the MoS battle.
Batfleck did better than I was expecting.
Wonder Woman was great. There is a scene where she gets smacked to the ground by Doomsday, smirks, and jumps back into the fight. Love it!
The Bad:
I'll go on record and say that I hated, hated, MoS and that this is not my Superman. Superman would have seen the bomb in the chair("I wasn't looking for it" BAH!), Superman can hear Lois drowning but not his mom's heartbeat or crying when she's a prisoner? So, fair or not, having him in this was a drag. I've also had about enough of his furrowed brow sadness.
The editing was all over the place. Others have spoken to this better so I don't need to get into it.
LINO(Lex In Name Only). Honestly, the acting wasn't bad. In fact my wife(who doesn't know Lex Luthor from Martin Luthor) thought he was great. He might have done a great job acting but that wasn't Lex Luthor he was playing.
Doomsday. UGH!
All the dreams and visions. I was spoiled about the Flash's appearance and was actually excited for it. While the vision preceding him was pretty neat the communication with Bruce was confusing and not well done.
The intro of the rest of the heroes was pretty lame. Our first view of Aquaman, Cyborg, etc was on a computer monitor? Exciting!
See, I throw them all together. If Marvel puts their name on the front of it (that flappy Marvel intro at the beginning), it's a Marvel movie.
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
I agree; if it's Marvel's property, it's a Marvel movie.
M
I agree, whether Marvel likes it or not! (I'm looking at you Fan4stic Four)
And as for the Netflix shows existing in the MCU, you can spot some headlines in Ben Ulrich's office that read "Battle of NY," referring to the events of The Avengers, while another references the Hulk's fight against the Abomination in Harlem.
It even has a subtle Stan Lee cameo
So it's clearly the same universe
I know it's all connected, but then again, I don't move the goalposts to support my opinion like some people do.
I've found 3 new DC hardo fanboy BvS:DoJ reasonings that I thought were cute. One is that the film "suffers from the studio's involvement instead of Snyder's vision." The shortened running time was referenced (supposedly, the studio is now considering releasing the R-rated version in theatres). This is interesting, since that same group referenced WB's policy of letting film-makers do their own thing...supposedly an advantage over Disney/Marvel.
Also, apparently, this film is "for the fans, not the critics or general audience. Fans know how to foil the plotholes." To me, making a film for just the fans to dig doesn't seem like a very business savvy plan.
Finally (and possibly my favorite), "no Marvel movie will ever hold the biggest opening weekend." I'm just hoping no other comic book movie has as big a drop in week two. Opening numbers include people locked in with advanced tickets. The proceeding weeks are a better gauge.
M
That last one makes 0 sense. Avengers and Age of Ultron both have considerably larger opening weekends. Avengers had the record for the largest opening ever before Jurassic World and Stsr Wars came out last year. Even Iron Man 3 had a bigger opening... Are they suggesting future Marvel movies will all fall below BvS's opening?
Comments
Why could Batman use magic based weapons? What about Batman kidnaps Lois, places her in a lead-line storage container in the lowest depths of the BatCave. Kent arrives only to find Lois, Batman, & gold Kryptonite. Batman kicks a depowered Kent's ass, then closes & buries the container.
A W in the win score column.
M
I also really like this version of Kent. He's always been bland to me. MoS added interesting depth.
Since the sequel was greenlit, I was one of the people telling those critiquing to wait until the movie comes out.
On the other hand, I've seen my share of DC hardo fanboys just rail into MCU movies. You don't have to like them, but the constant dismissal of the movies with "they're for kids" & "they're comedies" is such bull shit.
Hearing how "DC does it right" & is superior because they employ award winning staff made the fanbase seem pompous.
It got to the point, by the first trailer for BvS:DoJ, I was disinterested in the movie.
Now, this isn't a situation where I'm a Marvel fanboy. I actually like both. In fact, with all the bravado about Avengers, I was so hoping it fell shy of breaking the box office record of TDK. When that didn't happen, I hoped TDKR buried it...that didn't happen either.
Ultimately, the overhyping for the DCEU has damn near killed my interest in the movies. From that aspect, I hope BvS:DoJ continues to struggle.
M
I wonder what that "tear-up" moment was? Wonder if it involved "the name". If so, I haven't heard one person state it moved them, let alone tear up.
M
Didn't really see a "tear-up" moment in it...other than Affleck *is* Batman to me now. Well, he's still behind West, but aren't they all. :)
One of the things I really liked about Bale was I really had no idea who he was. It made it easy to suspend reality & see him as Batman.
I have the complete opposite issue with Affleck. He's an A-list, iconic celebrity playing an iconic character...something had to give. I can't bring myself to even buy a movie figure because I only see Affleck. I just cannot suspend reality & see Batman instead of Ben.
M
And they used none of it in the BvS film.
Music in film is like coloring in comics—it can enhance or hurt the storytelling, or it can just sit there in the background and you hardly even notice it.
Though I didn't know who those Native Americans were standing next to her and Steve Trevor (Chris Pine) in that pic. Did Native Americans have a beef with Kaiser Wilhelm?
From Lex's helipad speech in which he gloats to Superman that he's been sending letters to Superman/Batman, manipulating both heroes – and from the homeless appearance (if not homeless status) of Wheelchair Guy Wallace Keefe – we can assume the following:
- Lex has known Superman's and Batman's secret identities for a long time now.
- Homeless-looking Keefe obviously never got Bruce Wayne's checks, because Lex arranged to have them intercepted and sent back to Bruce Wayne, in an attempt to goose Bruce into seeing yet more human tragedy which Superman has brought to Bruce's world. Bruce never got these checks (when he sees them, his aide tells him something like “we didn’t want to show them to you”) though by that time, Bruce's disgust with Superman had snowballed on its own. He has a hair-trigger... which Lex finally pulls by exploding the capitol building, via which Superman gets blamed in association.
Here's how I see Lex's / Darkseid's plans and modi operandi:
As an egomaniac, Lex would naturally hate anyone whose power and reputation threatened his. Easily, he'd hate Superman; a bit less so Batman across the bay – but if Lex has been so obsessed as to track the rise of super-powered metahumans for the past 18-24 months, I can see him fearing/hating the powerful costumed vigilante Batman enough, too. So Lex planned to challenge S/B and planned to turn them against each other even before the current events of this movie (as his early interference with Wallace Keefe's checks backs up).
Once Lex steps into Zod's Kryptonian ship, though, his plans get an intergalactic boost. We see him gaining access to “the hundred thousand known worlds” – and in the deleted scene, we then see him in the thrall of / bowing down before (what we assume is) a Motherbox-wielding Steppenwolf of Apokolips. That, plus Lex's unleashing of Doomsday, a creature sure to destroy Metropolis, if not much of the world – plus Lex's dialogue re: “ringing the bell / signaling to his friends out in space” – plus the interplay of footage of the upside-down painting, now revealing that his “demon coming from above” dialogue hints not at Superman, but a devil from space… it all underscores that Darkseid has influenced Lex's actions.
Thus, here is how I see the film's last reel, through Lex's eyes:
- That asshole Batman stole my kryptonite but that's great, I can let him kill Superman with it, it'll be easier to kill Batman later on anyway. (Or did I always intend for Batman to steal my kryptonite? As long as Superman winds up dead, either works.) /
- I'll kidnap Martha Kent to force Superman into the fight with Batman, by this point the two hate each other's guts anyway and there is no way they won't fight to the death, and in the slim chance that Superman wins, I'll keep his mom alive so that he won't kill me. /
- Meanwhile, I'll unleash this Doomsday creature for my soon-to-arrive lord, Darkseid. The creature (which actually looks really cool, contrary to what some say) will devastate Earth and weaken it for Lord Darkseid's arrival and easy domination. Yes, it sucks that Earth is my home too… but as we all learned from that *truly* laughable Superman film, “Superman II,” I am Lex Luthor and I am totally comfortable selling out humanity if it promises me a cushy spot at the right hand of the guy in charge, especially if I am in his thrall and can't think perfectly straight anyway, like David Edelstein of Vulture.com, whose savaging review of BvS was even worse than CGS’s. /
- Shit. It didn’t work. They threw me in prison and shaved my head. Batman just scared the living fuck out of me, but look… he hit the wall with his Bat branding iron, he didn’t brand ME with it… that is yet more evidence of his “character growth” for the loudest voices of Big Internet who claim there is no character growth in this film, and who must prove to the world that they are correct in their hasty rush to chastise a film they haven't really thought about enough, yes the poor editing and a super-compressed story which is actually really cool didn't help much, but still! :)
I've always had a soft spot for Affleck. I know many people like to hate on him, and yes...Gigli...but to me he's been Hollywood's whipping boy who gets little to no respect. He's brilliant behind the camera - Argo and The Town are both excellent movies - and if he directs a Bat film as has been rumored I think it'll become one of the iconic films of the character. And he did a really good performance as Batman...this isn't the Bruce Wayne/Batman who's still young and knows everything...this is an older Batman and Shit. Has. Happened. To. Him. And Affleck made that believable.
A couple additional points:
1. Three months lapse between kryptonite rock being found in Indian Ocean to the point where Bruce tells Alfred in the Batcave that it was found three months prior.
2. The deleted scene you talk about occurs between the final battle (Bats, Supes, and WW against Doomsday) and the imprisonment (shaving of head).
The weird part is that most Native Americans were not considered American citizens at that time, and you had to be a citizen to be drafted. But all Native Americans were required to register for the draft regardless, and this cause great tensions between the US government and some tribes. There was even a small protest movement in Oklahoma.
@luckymustard - Thanks to you, too. As someone who likes this film, I enjoy putting all the pieces of the puzzle in place, and appreciate any help.
M
If you reference Deadpool, The Wolverine, DoFP, etc. the response has been "they aren't made by Disney/Marvel."
M
And ultimately, to me, it's about whether it's a comic book movie or not...regardless of company. Ghost World, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Road to Perdition, The Wolverine, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice, Sheena, etc. I'm always interested to see what filmmakers do with a given property, for better or worse.
M
And as for the Netflix shows existing in the MCU, you can spot some headlines in Ben Ulrich's office that read "Battle of NY," referring to the events of The Avengers, while another references the Hulk's fight against the Abomination in Harlem.
It even has a subtle Stan Lee cameo
So it's clearly the same universe
I've found 3 new DC hardo fanboy BvS:DoJ reasonings that I thought were cute. One is that the film "suffers from the studio's involvement instead of Snyder's vision." The shortened running time was referenced (supposedly, the studio is now considering releasing the R-rated version in theatres). This is interesting, since that same group referenced WB's policy of letting film-makers do their own thing...supposedly an advantage over Disney/Marvel.
Also, apparently, this film is "for the fans, not the critics or general audience. Fans know how to foil the plotholes." To me, making a film for just the fans to dig doesn't seem like a very business savvy plan.
Finally (and possibly my favorite), "no Marvel movie will ever hold the biggest opening weekend." I'm just hoping no other comic book movie has as big a drop in week two. Opening numbers include people locked in with advanced tickets. The proceeding weeks are a better gauge.
M
The Good:
The beginning with Bruce Wayne trying to navigate through the destruction caused by the MoS battle.
Batfleck did better than I was expecting.
Wonder Woman was great. There is a scene where she gets smacked to the ground by Doomsday, smirks, and jumps back into the fight. Love it!
The Bad:
I'll go on record and say that I hated, hated, MoS and that this is not my Superman. Superman would have seen the bomb in the chair("I wasn't looking for it" BAH!), Superman can hear Lois drowning but not his mom's heartbeat or crying when she's a prisoner? So, fair or not, having him in this was a drag. I've also had about enough of his furrowed brow sadness.
The editing was all over the place. Others have spoken to this better so I don't need to get into it.
LINO(Lex In Name Only). Honestly, the acting wasn't bad. In fact my wife(who doesn't know Lex Luthor from Martin Luthor) thought he was great. He might have done a great job acting but that wasn't Lex Luthor he was playing.
Doomsday. UGH!
All the dreams and visions. I was spoiled about the Flash's appearance and was actually excited for it. While the vision preceding him was pretty neat the communication with Bruce was confusing and not well done.
The intro of the rest of the heroes was pretty lame. Our first view of Aquaman, Cyborg, etc was on a computer monitor? Exciting!
And holds an 18% score at Rotten Tomatoes. Personally, I expected Hardcore Henry to perform better.