The more I thought about it, the more I'm convinced I'll be skipping this. I was really looking forward to it, but this feels as unsettling as that issue of Catwoman made me feel.
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Was the ending ambiguous or did you get the impression that Batman actually killed Joker at the end as has been suggested by some commentators on the original story?
Was the ending ambiguous or did you get the impression that Batman actually killed Joker at the end as has been suggested by some commentators on the original story?
Oh it was completely ambiguous. The book / ending really works for me once you look at with the belief batman kills the joker. In the movie, the two just share a hearty, broad smiled laugh and... silent credits. My wife, and much of the audience were just confused and disappointed.
Was the ending ambiguous or did you get the impression that Batman actually killed Joker at the end as has been suggested by some commentators on the original story?
Oh it was completely ambiguous. The book / ending really works for me once you look at with the belief batman kills the joker. In the movie, the two just share a hearty, broad smiled laugh and... silent credits. My wife, and much of the audience were just confused and disappointed.
Too bad Moore confirmed Batman doesn't kill him, eh?
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Only speaking for myself; I had issues with the romp on the roof for a couple reasons:
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Only speaking for myself; I had issues with the romp on the roof for a couple reasons:
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
M
Well, that's you. We're all different. For me, it didn't feel crammed at all. Maybe a bit gratuitous though, but then it usually is regardless. If anything honestly I believe it was added to lengthen and add to the movie. And as I presumed earlier, to make the connection between the two and the later events more personal and powerful. Whether it worked as such is up to the viewers, but I see why it would seem a good idea for a one off movie for the uninitiated. It did almost feel like two different stories as a result. But without drawing out the first half by exploring Bruce and babs relationship and such, and just did a straight translation, the movie would've been 39-45 min long. There just wasn't quite enough material for a feature.
As for the ending. I've never heard there to be a definitive answer. I believed it was deliberately ambiguous and heavily implied the joker was killed. That works for me. simply arresting him doesn't so much. Ending it with shared laugh even less. Personally, the two just laughing everything off together at the end (joker taken into custody or not), the whole thing is utterly pointless and simply gratuitous. The story and both batman and jokers points of view and motivations were meaningless and empty. But that's just my interpretation.
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Only speaking for myself; I had issues with the romp on the roof for a couple reasons:
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
M
Well, that's you. We're all different. For me, it didn't feel crammed at all. Maybe a bit gratuitous though, but then it usually is regardless. If anything honestly I believe it was added to lengthen and add to the movie. And as I presumed earlier, to make the connection between the two and the later events more personal and powerful. Whether it worked as such is up to the viewers, but I see why it would seem a good idea for a one off movie for the uninitiated. It did almost feel like two different stories as a result. But without drawing out the first half by exploring Bruce and babs relationship and such, and just did a straight translation, the movie would've been 39-45 min long. There just wasn't quite enough material for a feature.
As for the ending. I've never heard there to be a definitive answer. I believed it was deliberately ambiguous and heavily implied the joker was killed. That works for me. simply arresting him doesn't so much. Ending it with shared laugh even less. Personally, the two just laughing everything off together at the end (joker taken into custody or not), the whole thing is utterly pointless and simply gratuitous. The story and both batman and jokers points of view and motivations were meaningless and empty. But that's just my interpretation.
As I initially stated, all my opinion on the scene, which is why I was wondering if they didn't have that scene, but rather just kissing as the camera pans away, would it make their relationship any less? Did there clearly need to be a clear indication they were sexually involved to illustrate how personal her crippling was for Batman? Legit question as I have not seen the movie to understand the importance.
Ending wise; TKJ carried over into the prime titles. It's hard to reference the story & maintain Joker was killed.
There's an interview with Moore where he laughs off Morrison's accusation. He stated its not the case. The ending might not be satisfying with them just laughing, but Moore gave a reason for it. When I get a few moments to post it.
Here's a link to an article posting the script for the final page in the interim.
Moore's reasons for not doing anything at all are no longer relevant. It's a new story now with different relationships and significance. And it is called the "killing" joke. If they can insert a sex scene on the roof and a bunch of Batgirl back story, they can tweak the ending if they want.
It could've ended with hearing them both laughing, camera fades to black, then you hear the sound of a bone crack, making the laughter stop abruptly. Who cares how it ties into the other films? It would still be ambiguous and make it seem like there were actual consequences to raping and paralyzingly Batman's girlfriend and the commissioner's daughter.
As for the sex scene - it could have been completely excised and it wouldn't have changed this story one bit. It was gratuitous and unnecessary, just like this film has turned out to be.
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Only speaking for myself; I had issues with the romp on the roof for a couple reasons:
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
M
Well, that's you. We're all different. For me, it didn't feel crammed at all. Maybe a bit gratuitous though, but then it usually is regardless. If anything honestly I believe it was added to lengthen and add to the movie. And as I presumed earlier, to make the connection between the two and the later events more personal and powerful. Whether it worked as such is up to the viewers, but I see why it would seem a good idea for a one off movie for the uninitiated. It did almost feel like two different stories as a result. But without drawing out the first half by exploring Bruce and babs relationship and such, and just did a straight translation, the movie would've been 39-45 min long. There just wasn't quite enough material for a feature.
As for the ending. I've never heard there to be a definitive answer. I believed it was deliberately ambiguous and heavily implied the joker was killed. That works for me. simply arresting him doesn't so much. Ending it with shared laugh even less. Personally, the two just laughing everything off together at the end (joker taken into custody or not), the whole thing is utterly pointless and simply gratuitous. The story and both batman and jokers points of view and motivations were meaningless and empty. But that's just my interpretation.
As I initially stated, all my opinion on the scene, which is why I was wondering if they didn't have that scene, but rather just kissing as the camera pans away, would it make their relationship any less? Did there clearly need to be a clear indication they were sexually involved to illustrate how personal her crippling was for Batman? Legit question as I have not seen the movie to understand the importance.
Ending wise; TKJ carried over into the prime titles. It's hard to reference the story & maintain Joker was killed.
There's an interview with Moore where he laughs off Morrison's accusation. He stated its not the case. The ending might not be satisfying with them just laughing, but Moore gave a reason for it. When I get a few moments to post it.
Here's a link to an article posting the script for the final page in the interim.
A less graphic (if you could call it that) depiction of their coupling could've would've worked fine too. But I don't think a single or simple kiss would've been enough either. Several of the following scenes directly referenced the specific act and revolved entirely around the ramifications of the fact they had sex. That was what fractured their relationship and sent batgirl into early retirement.
At least in the movie, as the two are laughing, jokers voice disappears and batman is laughing alone as the screen fades. I liked that touch. Again. Just my opinion, but if joker doesn't die, then the story was bullshit. Without that hint or assumption or mystery, the whole thing was meaningless. The final page of the book isn't conclusive imo. Neither is the accompanying article. Ultimately, I'm not so attached either way, just personally think if batman and joker somehow simply "shared a moment" (wtf) and Batman just returns joker to arkham, then this story is honestly garbage. I liked the book quite a bit originally but didn't appreciate it until the notion of joker dying was presented. Looking at it now with new eyes, it makes sense. Naturally they couldn't/wouldn't let Moore kill a $$ character, so maybe that's why it was t spelled out? havmt they always argued about what parts or whether or not it was continuity? Seems like it. At any rate, I don't really care. But if Moore says conclusively there's no ambiguity whatsoever and batman definitely did not kill joker, I lose all respect for this book and no small amount for his talents lol.
Just finished it. It's fine. Actually really good all in all. Better than the majority of the animated dtvs they've put out post new52. Very well made and performed. It was mostly gorgeous to look at especially on the big screen. The first half was more enjoyable than the second joker filled half. Don't get the uproar over the one night stand between bats and babs? Can't say it was necessary and don't think it made a difference. but I can see why it could be seen as helping, but don't see how it actually hurts anything? Voice work was great. Animation was great... really good mostly. I wish they'd gone farther copying bolands style though or just been more different. For the most part it just felt like btas. Which isn't a bad thing at all. Half time batman looked either like Tim sales design or like btas/timms but w a weird nose. I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about. It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating. I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
Only speaking for myself; I had issues with the romp on the roof for a couple reasons:
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
M
Well, that's you. We're all different. For me, it didn't feel crammed at all. Maybe a bit gratuitous though, but then it usually is regardless. If anything honestly I believe it was added to lengthen and add to the movie. And as I presumed earlier, to make the connection between the two and the later events more personal and powerful. Whether it worked as such is up to the viewers, but I see why it would seem a good idea for a one off movie for the uninitiated. It did almost feel like two different stories as a result. But without drawing out the first half by exploring Bruce and babs relationship and such, and just did a straight translation, the movie would've been 39-45 min long. There just wasn't quite enough material for a feature.
As for the ending. I've never heard there to be a definitive answer. I believed it was deliberately ambiguous and heavily implied the joker was killed. That works for me. simply arresting him doesn't so much. Ending it with shared laugh even less. Personally, the two just laughing everything off together at the end (joker taken into custody or not), the whole thing is utterly pointless and simply gratuitous. The story and both batman and jokers points of view and motivations were meaningless and empty. But that's just my interpretation.
As I initially stated, all my opinion on the scene, which is why I was wondering if they didn't have that scene, but rather just kissing as the camera pans away, would it make their relationship any less? Did there clearly need to be a clear indication they were sexually involved to illustrate how personal her crippling was for Batman? Legit question as I have not seen the movie to understand the importance.
Ending wise; TKJ carried over into the prime titles. It's hard to reference the story & maintain Joker was killed.
There's an interview with Moore where he laughs off Morrison's accusation. He stated its not the case. The ending might not be satisfying with them just laughing, but Moore gave a reason for it. When I get a few moments to post it.
Here's a link to an article posting the script for the final page in the interim.
A less graphic (if you could call it that) depiction of their coupling could've would've worked fine too. But I don't think a single or simple kiss would've been enough either. Several of the following scenes directly referenced the specific act and revolved entirely around the ramifications of the fact they had sex. That was what fractured their relationship and sent batgirl into early retirement.
At least in the movie, as the two are laughing, jokers voice disappears and batman is laughing alone as the screen fades. I liked that touch. Again. Just my opinion, but if joker doesn't die, then the story was bullshit. Without that hint or assumption or mystery, the whole thing was meaningless. The final page of the book isn't conclusive imo. Neither is the accompanying article. Ultimately, I'm not so attached either way, just personally think if batman and joker somehow simply "shared a moment" (wtf) and Batman just returns joker to arkham, then this story is honestly garbage. I liked the book quite a bit originally but didn't appreciate it until the notion of joker dying was presented. Looking at it now with new eyes, it makes sense. Naturally they couldn't/wouldn't let Moore kill a $$ character, so maybe that's why it was t spelled out? havmt they always argued about what parts or whether or not it was continuity? Seems like it. At any rate, I don't really care. But if Moore says conclusively there's no ambiguity whatsoever and batman definitely did not kill joker, I lose all respect for this book and no small amount for his talents lol.
If its pivotal to the plot (I.e. Her retirement), then I understand more why it's as detailed. Don't agree with it, but understand it for story purposes.
Book-wise, I just never saw it as him killing before all the bugaboo. It's against Batman's code, he'd finally become what he fought, & Gordon, despite everything, asked Batman to arrest him by the book. I can't foresee Batman going against his wishes.
Side bar: do they use the "Joker raped Barbara" bit? I saw the images that were supposed to be in the book for that plot point, but aside from a topless Barbara, it wasn't really that different.
Book-wise, I just never saw it as him killing before all the bugaboo. It's against Batman's code, he'd finally become what he fought, & Gordon, despite everything, asked Batman to arrest him by the book. I can't foresee Batman going against his wishes.
Side bar: do they use the "Joker raped Barbara" bit? I saw the images that were supposed to be in the book for that plot point, but aside from a topless Barbara, it wasn't really that different.
M
But just standing there laughing with the Joker at the end without even hearing a bone-crunch, I don;'t think that works either.
Book-wise, I just never saw it as him killing before all the bugaboo. It's against Batman's code, he'd finally become what he fought, & Gordon, despite everything, asked Batman to arrest him by the book. I can't foresee Batman going against his wishes.
Side bar: do they use the "Joker raped Barbara" bit? I saw the images that were supposed to be in the book for that plot point, but aside from a topless Barbara, it wasn't really that different.
M
But just standing there laughing with the Joker at the end without even hearing a bone-crunch, I don;'t think that works either.
And yes, the Barbara rape is definitely implied.
The ending was supposed to just fade to black with silence. Ask Moore why he wanted without a sound.
And couldn't it be concluded, with just a bone crack sound, that Joker (an actual killer) killed Batman? His guard was down, Joker was close enough, so why couldnt he have done the killing?
Book-wise, I just never saw it as him killing before all the bugaboo. It's against Batman's code, he'd finally become what he fought, & Gordon, despite everything, asked Batman to arrest him by the book. I can't foresee Batman going against his wishes.
Side bar: do they use the "Joker raped Barbara" bit? I saw the images that were supposed to be in the book for that plot point, but aside from a topless Barbara, it wasn't really that different.
M
But just standing there laughing with the Joker at the end without even hearing a bone-crunch, I don;'t think that works either.
And yes, the Barbara rape is definitely implied.
The ending was supposed to just fade to black with silence. Ask Moore why he wanted without a sound.
And couldn't it be concluded, with just a bone crack sound, that Joker (an actual killer) killed Batman? His guard was down, Joker was close enough, so why couldnt he have done the killing?
I saw it last night and thought it was pretty good. I'm not sure why the Batgirl scene would offend someone but the naked-Jim-Gordon-on-a-leash weirdness would not. The Killing Joke has always been a hard pill to swallow for a lot of readers, and I just assume that Azzarello played in the same sandbox that Moore did. My problem with the first 20 or so minutes was how that new stuff didn't seem to jive with the normal Killing Joke story. I found the storylines disjointed, but all in all it was well-done.
The first half hour of the film is completely useless. It is filler and comes off that way from the villain himself, plot, and characterization. Not only that, it makes Batgirl's motivations all about Batman. She's reduced to this sad puppy dog of a girl with a daddy complex for no reason whatsoever. It doesn't even really change Batman's feelings on when Barbara gets shot either, because OF COURSE Batman would be upset if one of his partners got shot; especially the daughter of one of his closest allies! It's common sense!
If you were to fast forward past the first thirty minutes of the film, you wouldn't be wondering what you missed. It's totally detached, and that's just as bad as if you'd introduced Babs just to get shot in the stomach.
It really annoyed the hell out of me, and took me away from enjoying the rest of the feature. Azzarello phoned this one in, and I wouldn't be shocked if Bruce Timm admits as much a few years down the line as well. It just didn't work.
I'm okay with the Batgirl/Batman hookup, although in my mind Babs always belonged with Richard (not gonna say Dick because it'll just invite jokes and...ah shit I just did!) :)
Haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like they may be missing the whole point of the book, IMHO. It's not a Batman story, nor a Joker one. To me, it's about Jim Gordon. Joker wasn't trying to break the Bat this time...he was trying to break Gordon, and (in the book at least) failed.
The best line is when he stops Batman before he goes after Joker: "By the book..."
Does that come across in the cartoon at all, or is Jim's role downplayed?
I'm okay with the Batgirl/Batman hookup, although in my mind Babs always belonged with Richard (not gonna say Dick because it'll just invite jokes and...ah shit I just did!) :)
Haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like they may be missing the whole point of the book, IMHO. It's not a Batman story, nor a Joker one. To me, it's about Jim Gordon. Joker wasn't trying to break the Bat this time...he was trying to break Gordon, and (in the book at least) failed.
The best line is when he stops Batman before he goes after Joker: "By the book..."
Does that come across in the cartoon at all, or is Jim's role downplayed?
The "by the book" line is there, as is Jim's involvement. But I felt like the movie missed something. It felt less...haunting? The only real moment that filled me with dread was the song, and that was mostly due to Hamill's brilliant (as always) Joker.
I also wasn't thrilled with the animation. It felt like they went cheap on frames. Movement wasn't nearly as fluid as it has been in other features such as "Under The Red Hood."
And speaking of Mr. Richard Grayson, he doesn't come up once, and they make it feel like Babs is Bat's only partner, and has been for a while; not even sure if Grayson exists. Even though a certain key Batman death is shown on a computer screen at one point. Call a number to vote on which death I'm talking about.
Matt
Posts: 4,457
Comments
M
Babs appears to be quite the aggressor too.
M
M
I haven't re-read the book in many years. And although Ive always really liked it, I've never held it as "sacred" or such. I still find the red hood origin silly and unbelievable. The ending was the most flawed imo. It was abrupt and wholly unsatisfying. Even more so here than in the book as I remember. there was a brief musical bit that felt out of place and didn't work for me, nor did some of batmans dialog. I don't remember the music good or bad but nothing to complain about.
It was odd in spots where it seemed to awkwardly pull its punches then others where it ran w the R rating.
I give it a high rating. It was also just a great treat seeing this type product on the big screen.
M
1.) I never liked the idea of Batman & Barbara together
2.) I was 5 when I first started reading comics. The stuff I was reading didn't seem blatantly mature reading. That's why, despite not being "pure" & someone who uses expletives, I don't like reading/seeing these characters swear or engage in sexual relations
3.) albeit I've only seen that quick clip & read the plot, it seems crowbarred in there for gratuitous reasons then out of necessity.
M
For me, it didn't feel crammed at all. Maybe a bit gratuitous though, but then it usually is regardless. If anything honestly I believe it was added to lengthen and add to the movie. And as I presumed earlier, to make the connection between the two and the later events more personal and powerful. Whether it worked as such is up to the viewers, but I see why it would seem a good idea for a one off movie for the uninitiated.
It did almost feel like two different stories as a result. But without drawing out the first half by exploring Bruce and babs relationship and such, and just did a straight translation, the movie would've been 39-45 min long. There just wasn't quite enough material for a feature.
As for the ending. I've never heard there to be a definitive answer. I believed it was deliberately ambiguous and heavily implied the joker was killed. That works for me. simply arresting him doesn't so much. Ending it with shared laugh even less. Personally, the two just laughing everything off together at the end (joker taken into custody or not), the whole thing is utterly pointless and simply gratuitous. The story and both batman and jokers points of view and motivations were meaningless and empty. But that's just my interpretation.
Ending wise; TKJ carried over into the prime titles. It's hard to reference the story & maintain Joker was killed.
There's an interview with Moore where he laughs off Morrison's accusation. He stated its not the case. The ending might not be satisfying with them just laughing, but Moore gave a reason for it. When I get a few moments to post it.
Here's a link to an article posting the script for the final page in the interim.
http://comicbook.com/blog/2013/08/17/the-killing-joke-script-proves-batman-didnt-kill-the-joker/
M
It could've ended with hearing them both laughing, camera fades to black, then you hear the sound of a bone crack, making the laughter stop abruptly. Who cares how it ties into the other films? It would still be ambiguous and make it seem like there were actual consequences to raping and paralyzingly Batman's girlfriend and the commissioner's daughter.
As for the sex scene - it could have been completely excised and it wouldn't have changed this story one bit. It was gratuitous and unnecessary, just like this film has turned out to be.
At least in the movie, as the two are laughing, jokers voice disappears and batman is laughing alone as the screen fades. I liked that touch. Again. Just my opinion, but if joker doesn't die, then the story was bullshit. Without that hint or assumption or mystery, the whole thing was meaningless.
The final page of the book isn't conclusive imo. Neither is the accompanying article.
Ultimately, I'm not so attached either way, just personally think if batman and joker somehow simply "shared a moment" (wtf) and Batman just returns joker to arkham, then this story is honestly garbage. I liked the book quite a bit originally but didn't appreciate it until the notion of joker dying was presented. Looking at it now with new eyes, it makes sense. Naturally they couldn't/wouldn't let Moore kill a $$ character, so maybe that's why it was t spelled out? havmt they always argued about what parts or whether or not it was continuity? Seems like it.
At any rate, I don't really care.
But if Moore says conclusively there's no ambiguity whatsoever and batman definitely did not kill joker, I lose all respect for this book and no small amount for his talents lol.
Book-wise, I just never saw it as him killing before all the bugaboo. It's against Batman's code, he'd finally become what he fought, & Gordon, despite everything, asked Batman to arrest him by the book. I can't foresee Batman going against his wishes.
Side bar: do they use the "Joker raped Barbara" bit? I saw the images that were supposed to be in the book for that plot point, but aside from a topless Barbara, it wasn't really that different.
M
And yes, the Barbara rape is definitely implied.
And couldn't it be concluded, with just a bone crack sound, that Joker (an actual killer) killed Batman? His guard was down, Joker was close enough, so why couldnt he have done the killing?
M
If you were to fast forward past the first thirty minutes of the film, you wouldn't be wondering what you missed. It's totally detached, and that's just as bad as if you'd introduced Babs just to get shot in the stomach.
It really annoyed the hell out of me, and took me away from enjoying the rest of the feature. Azzarello phoned this one in, and I wouldn't be shocked if Bruce Timm admits as much a few years down the line as well. It just didn't work.
Haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like they may be missing the whole point of the book, IMHO. It's not a Batman story, nor a Joker one. To me, it's about Jim Gordon. Joker wasn't trying to break the Bat this time...he was trying to break Gordon, and (in the book at least) failed.
The best line is when he stops Batman before he goes after Joker: "By the book..."
Does that come across in the cartoon at all, or is Jim's role downplayed?
I also wasn't thrilled with the animation. It felt like they went cheap on frames. Movement wasn't nearly as fluid as it has been in other features such as "Under The Red Hood."
And speaking of Mr. Richard Grayson, he doesn't come up once, and they make it feel like Babs is Bat's only partner, and has been for a while; not even sure if Grayson exists. Even though a certain key Batman death is shown on a computer screen at one point. Call a number to vote on which death I'm talking about.