George R. R. Martin's Thoughts on Writing for Marvel and My Reactions

DennisCuzinski

He had some interesting points, and I respond to them:

http://www.rpsteeves.com/2012/09/george-r-r-martin-on-doctor-strange-and.html

Torchsong

I would not read it. The man has two more books on Song of Ice and Fire to deliver. Anything else is a diversion from that. Much as I love the man's work, if I support his side projects, it detracts from the big kahuna we'd all like to see him finish.

The contract idea is a pipe dream, sure, but I can see where it's coming from. I think it had to be understood that whether you're George R. R. F'n Martin or...me...that when you got to Marvel or DC you're playing in their sandbox with their characters. If you make a sweeping, brilliant change, that's great and the fans may love you for it, but that doesn't mean it'll be that way some 20 years down the line.

dubbat138

Torchsong said:

I would not read it. The man has two more books on Song of Ice and Fire to deliver. Anything else is a diversion from that. Much as I love the man's work, if I support his side projects, it detracts from the big kahuna we'd all like to see him finish.

The contract idea is a pipe dream, sure, but I can see where it's coming from. I think it had to be understood that whether you're George R. R. F'n Martin or...me...that when you got to Marvel or DC you're playing in their sandbox with their characters. If you make a sweeping, brilliant change, that's great and the fans may love you for it, but that doesn't mean it'll be that way some 20 years down the line.

I haven't started the Song of Ice and Fire yet. Mainly cause I get a weird feeling he will never finish it. Once ,or if,he finishes it I will read it.

Torchsong

He's got a Bible done for it, and claims he's got a ghost writer who knows how it all is supposed to turn out if he should die before it's complete. I'm hoping he'll last long enough to get them all done, but he's said in interviews that his sudden popularity has been a real hindrance. Everyone wants him to write forwards for their books, appear on interviews, go to conventions, and he's said he's not one of those people who can just "sit down and write" - so even he's concerned about it.

WetRats

He should just go ahead and turn the project over to said ghost writer.

Mr_Cosmic

I've been reading Ice and Fire since about 1998...I used to think he was just a slow writer.

Then he started a blog so I could go there and read all the stuff he is working on other than Ice and Fire.

Now he's doing that World of Ice and Fire book and I read a comment from him where he said he had to be careful not to spoil future books. What? Then wait until you finish all your books before starting on a "World of.." book. But, I suppose, if he did that they couldn't come out with an updated version to sell.

DennisCuzinski

His "protege" of sorts is Daniel Abraham, who does the GoT comic. He also writes in the Wild Cards series, so I have confidence his his abilities. I am in the minority, but I would rather see Mr. Martin dive back into the Wild Cards universe. I was reluctant to pick up Game of Thrones in the late 90s because it took him away from WC. He wrote one story for the relaunch, but man, I want to see him back at it full throttle...

SolitaireRose

There is a LOT of heated discussion about Martin's writing habits on the net, so I first want to thank everyone here for being so calm! Maybe we could discuss who's better, Joel or Mike on MST3K!

Anywho, the delays, waiting, etyc...is why I don't read fantasy series any more until they are done. The one I was still reading when I made the decision was the Myth series by Robert Asprin...then he ended a book on a cliffhanger and didn't resolve it for almost 20 years!!

I hear great things about the Game of Thrones books, but after reading about the delays (books not coming out when projected, fans getting mad, etc...) I'll just wait until the last book comes out and read it then. It worked for The Dark Tower, it'll work for these books as well.

hauberk

I read Martin and have to say that I'm a huge fan of both the Ice & Fire books and of the Wild Cards books. I'm prefectly fine with the man having side projects or stepping away from one in order to refresh (and work on the other) from time to time.

At the end of the day, he's in a creative arts profession. He hasn't contractually committed to any set deadlines on when I can have the book and, when he tears a book apart and restructures it, he's doing so to improve the narrative quality (or at least satisfy himself that his creation is as good as it can be). I can't fault that. Sure, I'd like for him to complete Ice & Fire faster, but I don't think that good things can come from sweatshop writing.

If he needs to take a step back and do a Dunk & Egg story, or edit a Wild Cards book, or write a piece on the Conquest of Dorne in order to not put crap on the page just to have another page done, I'm good with that. Particularly so given that I'm going to read that article and that Wild Cards book as well.

dubbat138

SolitaireRose said:

There is a LOT of heated discussion about Martin's writing habits on the net, so I first want to thank everyone here for being so calm! Maybe we could discuss who's better, Joel or Mike on MST3K!

Anywho, the delays, waiting, etyc...is why I don't read fantasy series any more until they are done. The one I was still reading when I made the decision was the Myth series by Robert Asprin...then he ended a book on a cliffhanger and didn't resolve it for almost 20 years!!

I hear great things about the Game of Thrones books, but after reading about the delays (books not coming out when projected, fans getting mad, etc...) I'll just wait until the last book comes out and read it then. It worked for The Dark Tower, it'll work for these books as well.

With the Dark Tower books I started right after book 2 came out. And read each one as they came out. But it was always so long between them,well the first 5 at least. That usually I would end up re-reading the previous ones when I knew the next volume was coming out. That is part of the reason I have read the original version of The Gunslinger 9 times now.

Dman

Torchsong said:

I would not read it. The man has two more books on Song of Ice and Fire to deliver. Anything else is a diversion from that. Much as I love the man's work, if I support his side projects, it detracts from the big kahuna we'd all like to see him finish.

I totally agree Torchsong. That’s what I first thought upon reading this.

dubbat138

Dman said:

Torchsong said:

I would not read it. The man has two more books on Song of Ice and Fire to deliver. Anything else is a diversion from that. Much as I love the man's work, if I support his side projects, it detracts from the big kahuna we'd all like to see him finish.

I totally agree Torchsong. That’s what I first thought upon reading this.

If I wasn't such a big fan of the Wild Cards novels I would feel the same way.

Hellsfire

The problem with Martin is that, as he put it, he's a gardener, not an architect. That just means he doesn't outline so he has no idea where he's going in a story. That's why ASoFI won't finish as he's having problems bringing the characters and the plot back together again.

I don't mind if he works on other things. As a writer, sometimes you want to work on other projects, but I do disagree with writers being a gardener.

hauberk

Hellsfire said:

The problem with Martin is that, as he put it, he's a gardener, not an architect. That just means he doesn't outline so he has no idea where he's going in a story. That's why ASoFI won't finish as he's having problems bringing the characters and the plot back together again.

I cannot possibly disagree enough with this statement. One book, mostly written, utilizing a time gap as a conceit killed his momentum. How many times have you had something 80-90% complete and then had to tear it back apart and retool the entire thing. As of today, my understanding is that he's where he had planned to be back in 2002-2003 at the end of the original AFFC. I may ultimately have to eat my words, but until he drags Wolves of Winter out for an extended period of time, I'm going to assume that he's past the hangup.

Hellsfire said:

I don't mind if he works on other things. As a writer, sometimes you want to work on other projects, but I do disagree with writers being a gardener.

I'd submit that his Hugo, Nebula and Stoker awards would disagree with you. Much as there are many kinds of actors, there are many kinds of writers. If Martin approaches his stories from a more organic perspective, I'm OK with that. To assume that any artist knows exactly how their art is going to look when complete seems a bit naive. I think that most artists, including writers have a bit of an improvisationalist in them by necessity.

But what do I know. I'm a self admitted fan of the man.

Hellsfire

hauberk said:

I cannot possibly disagree enough with this statement. One book, mostly written, utilizing a time gap as a conceit killed his momentum. How many times have you had something 80-90% complete and then had to tear it back apart and retool the entire thing. As of today, my understanding is that he's where he had planned to be back in 2002-2003 at the end of the original AFFC. I may ultimately have to eat my words, but until he drags Wolves of Winter out for an extended period of time, I'm going to assume that he's past the hangup.

I'd submit that his Hugo, Nebula and Stoker awards would disagree with you. Much as there are many kinds of actors, there are many kinds of writers. If Martin approaches his stories from a more organic perspective, I'm OK with that. To assume that any artist knows exactly how their art is going to look when complete seems a bit naive. I think that most artists, including writers have a bit of an improvisationalist in them by necessity.

But what do I know. I'm a self admitted fan of the man.

I've written things and started from scratch again, but the difference is I don't promise people one thing, which is what he's done. I've written non-fiction and had deadlines and maybe two times have asked for an extension.

He can work however he wants to. It's worked so well this far and he's old so I wouldn't expect him to change. But he's going to die before it finishes and HBO will catch up to his show and he shouldn't promise things if he can't deliver. That's probably people's biggest gripe about him. I don't know the man but he might tell his younger self to do things differently.

Writing's not as artisy as you seem to think it is. The writers with that mindset never get anything done because of "writer's block" or "inspiration hasn't come to them." Successful writers treat writing as a job and put their butt in the chair.

Mr_Cosmic

ASoIaF will end the same as Jordan's Wheel of Time...with someone else writing it.

hauberk

Hellsfire said:

hauberk said:

I cannot possibly disagree enough with this statement. One book, mostly written, utilizing a time gap as a conceit killed his momentum. How many times have you had something 80-90% complete and then had to tear it back apart and retool the entire thing. As of today, my understanding is that he's where he had planned to be back in 2002-2003 at the end of the original AFFC. I may ultimately have to eat my words, but until he drags Wolves of Winter out for an extended period of time, I'm going to assume that he's past the hangup.

I'd submit that his Hugo, Nebula and Stoker awards would disagree with you. Much as there are many kinds of actors, there are many kinds of writers. If Martin approaches his stories from a more organic perspective, I'm OK with that. To assume that any artist knows exactly how their art is going to look when complete seems a bit naive. I think that most artists, including writers have a bit of an improvisationalist in them by necessity.

But what do I know. I'm a self admitted fan of the man.

I've written things and started from scratch again, but the difference is I don't promise people one thing, which is what he's done. I've written non-fiction and had deadlines and maybe two times have asked for an extension.

He can work however he wants to. It's worked so well this far and he's old so I wouldn't expect him to change. But he's going to die before it finishes and HBO will catch up to his show and he shouldn't promise things if he can't deliver. That's probably people's biggest gripe about him. I don't know the man but he might tell his younger self to do things differently.

Writing's not as artisy as you seem to think it is. The writers with that mindset never get anything done because of "writer's block" or "inspiration hasn't come to them." Successful writers treat writing as a job and put their butt in the chair.

What exactly has he promised? I've been buying his books since long before AGoT came out and I don't recall at any point in time, him issueing any kind of contract for when a book I would next have a book in a favorite series to read. Are you suggesting that his declared intent to write a pair of trilogies is a promise? OK, maybe so, and if the case then he's definitely broken that by changing the structure to a septet, I suppose that he's broken his promise as well. However, I'd suggest that there's a big difference between committing to a pair of trilogies and committing to release dates for anything.

All he owes you is that the books that he does release are of a quality that you've come to expect from his previous works.

As for "successful writers treating writing as a job and put their butt in the chair"goes, how many hours a day? On which projects? Do press junkets and publisher arranged signings count toward their 40 hours a week? I'm pretty sure that I could come up with a large volume of authors that treat writing as a job and put their butts in their chairs, that are still hacks and are just writing trash (see smutty vampire crap that is taking over the SF section at most bookstores, or Goodkind, McKeirnan, most men's adventure fiction and romance novels for examples). They all put in their time, but it hardly makes the works they produce any better in quality.

Hellsfire

hauberk said:

What exactly has he promised? I've been buying his books since long before AGoT came out and I don't recall at any point in time, him issueing any kind of contract for when a book I would next have a book in a favorite series to read. Are you suggesting that his declared intent to write a pair of trilogies is a promise? OK, maybe so, and if the case then he's definitely broken that by changing the structure to a septet, I suppose that he's broken his promise as well. However, I'd suggest that there's a big difference between committing to a pair of trilogies and committing to release dates for anything.

All he owes you is that the books that he does release are of a quality that you've come to expect from his previous works.

As for "successful writers treating writing as a job and put their butt in the chair"goes, how many hours a day? On which projects? Do press junkets and publisher arranged signings count toward their 40 hours a week? I'm pretty sure that I could come up with a large volume of authors that treat writing as a job and put their butts in their chairs, that are still hacks and are just writing trash (see smutty vampire crap that is taking over the SF section at most bookstores, or Goodkind, McKeirnan, most men's adventure fiction and romance novels for examples). They all put in their time, but it hardly makes the works they produce any better in quality.

I'm not privy to his contracts so I have no idea what publishers expect of him in that regard. However, I do recall when A Feast for Crows came out and the 5th book was going to be out shortly within the next year maybe two, but it just came out next year. If I remember correctly, I think at one point he said the series was supposed to be 7 books, but it's not anymore.

I didn't say writers write for 40 hours a week. Writers don't write for 8 hours a day. GRRM is big enough to do what he wants, when he wants.

I'm not one of those writers that go around bashing other writer's works. That stuff comes off as petty. People trash Twilight and before that DaVinci Code, and more recent 50 Shades of Gray, but they sold millions so a lot of people liked them. Books are primarily entertainment these days. Even if someone is a "hack" writer, it still takes a lot of work to write a book. Maybe those people just want to write something that'll be read.

In regards to your quality statement, I thought A Feast for Crows was garbage. I had a lot of problems with that book and heard the 5th book has the same problems with it except it has characters people like. Yet the 4th book took a long time to produce yet the quality wasn't good. I'm not sure if there's any correlation between taking a long time to produce something and the quality being better because of it.

Will I finish the series? Yes. I'll do what I did with Goodkind as in I started off really enjoying the series then it went downhill and finished it because I might as well see where it ends and I'm already invested.

You seem so passionate about it because you're a bigger fan than I am. I like some of his work, but I don't really care about how long things take anymore. In my original post I just stated why it takes him so long to write things.

It's been fun talking to you.

hauberk

Hellsfire said:

hauberk said:

What exactly has he promised? I've been buying his books since long before AGoT came out and I don't recall at any point in time, him issueing any kind of contract for when a book I would next have a book in a favorite series to read. Are you suggesting that his declared intent to write a pair of trilogies is a promise? OK, maybe so, and if the case then he's definitely broken that by changing the structure to a septet, I suppose that he's broken his promise as well. However, I'd suggest that there's a big difference between committing to a pair of trilogies and committing to release dates for anything.

All he owes you is that the books that he does release are of a quality that you've come to expect from his previous works.

As for "successful writers treating writing as a job and put their butt in the chair"goes, how many hours a day? On which projects? Do press junkets and publisher arranged signings count toward their 40 hours a week? I'm pretty sure that I could come up with a large volume of authors that treat writing as a job and put their butts in their chairs, that are still hacks and are just writing trash (see smutty vampire crap that is taking over the SF section at most bookstores, or Goodkind, McKeirnan, most men's adventure fiction and romance novels for examples). They all put in their time, but it hardly makes the works they produce any better in quality.

I'm not privy to his contracts so I have no idea what publishers expect of him in that regard. However, I do recall when A Feast for Crows came out and the 5th book was going to be out shortly within the next year maybe two, but it just came out next year. If I remember correctly, I think at one point he said the series was supposed to be 7 books, but it's not anymore.

I didn't say writers write for 40 hours a week. Writers don't write for 8 hours a day. GRRM is big enough to do what he wants, when he wants.

I'm not one of those writers that go around bashing other writer's works. That stuff comes off as petty. People trash Twilight and before that DaVinci Code, and more recent 50 Shades of Gray, but they sold millions so a lot of people liked them. Books are primarily entertainment these days. Even if someone is a "hack" writer, it still takes a lot of work to write a book. Maybe those people just want to write something that'll be read.

In regards to your quality statement, I thought A Feast for Crows was garbage. I had a lot of problems with that book and heard the 5th book has the same problems with it except it has characters people like. Yet the 4th book took a long time to produce yet the quality wasn't good. I'm not sure if there's any correlation between taking a long time to produce something and the quality being better because of it.

Will I finish the series? Yes. I'll do what I did with Goodkind as in I started off really enjoying the series then it went downhill and finished it because I might as well see where it ends and I'm already invested.

You seem so passionate about it because you're a bigger fan than I am. I like some of his work, but I don't really care about how long things take anymore. In my original post I just stated why it takes him so long to write things.

It's been fun talking to you.

WRT to Martin and the delays, he was pretty emphatic on his website and at his signings that his fans would first learn of release dates from his website. Amazon, in particular, was pretty egregious about putting out bad release dates.

I'm not a writer, but I am a reader, and I'm suspicious of anyone that can put out the volume of work released by some authors. I offered some general and some pretty specific examples of things that I find to be crap largely because I strongly feel that they are crap. As a SF/Fantasy fan, I'm quite annoyed that if I want a copy of Dracula, I go to the literature section, but if I want contemporary vampire smut like Laurel Hamilton, I get sent to the SF/Fantasy section. That's right, our genre books are considered on par with the horror p0rn. That annoys the snot out of me. Goodkind started out with a few interesting ideas, but then seemed to get far more interested in spewing his ridiculous socio-political ideology (and p0rn). Not sure what to say about McKiernan other than to offer that I've already read the Lord of the Rings, but when it wasn't utterly and totally derivative. So, I think I'll stand with my previous statement about hacks.

He stated emphatically for quite some time that the series would consist of two trilogies with a five year gap between them (in book time). It wasn't until he was quite some way through Feast that he was writing a huge percentage of the book in past tense / flashback narratives and realized that the gap was an unnecessary artistic conceit. He began reworking the book, pressure continued to build to release something and the decision was made to split the book into two.

There's no denying that Feast and Dance both had problems. Feast lacked two fan favorite characters (at least), while Dance was bloated (IMO) with Dany chapters. In hindsight, he probably should have stuck with his guns and left the 5 year gap in place between the trilogies, or rather figured out well in advance that the gap didn't work and to just start with seven books (seven kingdoms, the Seven...). Obviously, for Martin, there was a significant importance to delaying the books to get them to be as good as he could make them. Certainly, he struggled mightily with getting them wrapped up. This was, largely, as I understand it, because he knew where all the characters needed to be for the start of the next book and he wanted to get them to those places as organically as possible (rather than invoking Deus ex Machina).

I am a fan of Martin's works. There is truth in that. However, I think that my passion in this comes less from that and more from a weariness over the "he's old and fat and will die before he finishes." "His books will get finished like Jordan's" declarations. That level of vocal cynicism doesn't help anything and it just seems damned disrespectful, both to Martin, who really, isn't that old, and to Jordan (whose books, I've read, but of whom I'm much less of a fan, who was similar in age, but died rather suddenly from winning the Power Ball drawing of cancer.

Nice talking with you as well.

demonbear

i like the Ice and Fire books! but for some reason, i also believe he may not be around to finish it. and it kinda would detract from the experience if i saw a name other than his, on the covers of the remaining books.

so get going on the sixth, please, sir! and just don't inform me if another person were to finish it... franklin w. dixon did it. ;)

John_Steed

I'm reading (and loving) his books in spite of being terminal ill. Living in the moment. What do I care if I will see the end of the epic A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE or not. Just enjoying the ride as long as it lasts. Like life.

random73

Boy! Robert Lynn Asprin's Myth books must drive you guys crazy. talk about a delay...

Torchsong

I remember Asprin had MAJOR writer's block and could not finish one for a long LONG period of time. He wrote about it when he finally did finish it.

WetRats

Torchsong said:

I remember Asprin had MAJOR writer's block and could not finish one for a long LONG period of time. He wrote about it when he finally did finish it.

I thought he died.

Mr_Cosmic

The part that drove me nuts is when he wrote that since A Dance of Dragons was half done we should see it in a year...that was in the afterward to "Feast." It took about another five years. He can blame Amazon's release dates all he wants but he is the one who put the spark of hope in his fan's hearts with his blog updates that spoke of progress and the end being in sight. Towards the end of working on "Dance" he quit making predictions in his updates.

Torchsong

WetRats said:

Torchsong said:

I remember Asprin had MAJOR writer's block and could not finish one for a long LONG period of time. He wrote about it when he finally did finish it.

I thought he died.

He did, sadly, but between I *think* Myth Inc Link and Sweet Mythtery of Life he encountered two problems - the IRS was hounding him for payment of back taxes I guess he wasn't aware he owed, and a crippling bout of writer's block. If you notice, most of his later myth books were done with a co-author.

It's difficult for me to imagine anyone who could create as funny and creative a world as he did suffering from writer's block. It'd be devastating.