Sometimes a loudly publicized change can get those of us who dropped out to come back.
No question! At the risk of sounding too cynical, and because the evaporation of the marriage didn't enable too many substantially different stories, it's tempting to conclude that this may have been the real reason behind the move. Peter David has stated repeatedly that each time sales dropped during his Hulk run he would shake things up, making Hulk gray or smart or separate from Banner or whatever. These changes did not occur "organically," they were initiated to give sales a jolt (according to Peter David).
Anyway, thanks very much for your thoughts, David_D. You make some very good, and thought-provoking, points.
I have to disagree here. Some fans (like myself) don't want to read about a sad Spider-Man dealing with the death of his wife or a divorce.
OK. Understood. As I wrote earlier, Gwen's death certainly rocked me to my core! Interestingly, the subsequent 50 issues were no where near as dark and depressing as the post-Dark Knight years of Spidey's titles (e.g., "Kraven's Last Hunt," etc.).
To me, true creativity lies in taking the toys and tools in the existing sandbox and creating something brilliant out of it, not breaking apart the existing sandbox and rebuilding it to suit the cool idea you have.
I fully expect that a character that has been around decades in multiple titles with multiple writers and editors is eventually going to wind up boxed in creatively. I love continuity but if a company is going to bleed every dollar out of a franchise that they can, sooner or later they are going to have to blow up everything and start over. True creavity would be wonderful, but attempting to make the fans, editors, and corporate suits happy often limits creativity.
I have no issues with Status Quo changes in Spiderman's life. Gwen's death, the black costume, the marriage, the clone saga, the identity revelation. All of these seem rooted in character contuinity; the marriage was consumating the live in relationship, the Clone saga was set up years before, the identity reveal was organic from that particular characterization of Peter at the time. Change happens.
What I do not enjoy is such a heavy handed undoing of a well loved character's life to suit the whim of a particular creator/EIC. If he wanted Peter single then go with a Divorce, like Death, it happens. I have said it before in countless posts, to trade a marriage away for the life of an aging parental figure goes against nature. In a good life we bury our parents, I find it hard to believe even as guilty as he felt about Aunt May's death that he would make a deal with the devil to bring her back. It was sloppy and out of character and year's later when they tried to clean it up( One Moment in Time) it got sloppier.
One More Day created a new string of great stories but the road to get there was completely unnesecary
Was it necessary creatively? Probably not, and I'll simply say that David D's post covers that all eloquently, thus saving me many keystrokes. No story is "necessary", they just are. On the business side of it, like someone else upthread said (I think it was EarthG Billy, apologies if I'm incorrect), all they needed was for someone to write some great stories, and to be left alone vis a vis crossovers and events. Could they have done that without OMD? Absolutely. Would they have had the same punch that led to greatly increased sales for quite a while? No. People say "This guy's writing great stories" all the time. So much so, in fact, that we don't even notice it anymore, so they get no sales bump. Do something like this though, and it gets people talking.
Even negative talk is good talk, because people are aware that something huge is happening. It's the rubbernecking syndrome that has everyone looking at the accident on the highway.
"People are dropping Spider-Man after 30 years of reading him? Holy crap! I've gotta see what's going on. Hey, I like these stories. I'll buy this book 3 times a month."
After that, it's people watching NASCAR not because they wanna see the cars go around in a circle, but because they're waiting for one to fall out of the circle, catastrophically.
"Can they keep up the quality 3 times a month?!? How soon will they reverse this?"
Creatively, unnecessary, but it was a business move that sold a ton of books, and that's what their real job is, whether we like it or not.
Creatively, unnecessary, but it was a business move that sold a ton of books, and that's what their real job is, whether we like it or not.
Yes, of course, this couldn't be more obvious. What isn't obvious (at least to me) is why they have to lie. What can't they state that they are erasing the marriage so that they can sell a ton of books? When Joe Q looks me in the eye at a Con and tells me that they are doing this because it will enable them to tell a LOT of stories that they are unable to tell with a married Peter, then I get all sorts of excited! I cannot wait to read all these new stories! Yippee!! After 20 years of "married" stories, I get new "single" stories! Trouble is... I'm still waiting for them to appear.
Creatively, unnecessary, but it was a business move that sold a ton of books, and that's what their real job is, whether we like it or not.
Yes, of course, this couldn't be more obvious. What isn't obvious (at least to me) is why they have to lie. What can't they state that they are erasing the marriage so that they can sell a ton of books? When Joe Q looks me in the eye at a Con and tells me that they are doing this because it will enable them to tell a LOT of stories that they are unable to tell with a married Peter, then I get all sorts of excited! I cannot wait to read all these new stories! Yippee!! After 20 years of "married" stories, I get new "single" stories! Trouble is... I'm still waiting for them to appear.
Hasn't the last four years been stories about a single Peter? I get your premise that they would have been possible anyway (again, I would say they would have been different with a married Peter even if they were possible). . . but are you really saying that you have not yet got a story about a single Peter? They may not be the stories you wanted, or been as different as you expected stories of a single Peter would be. But, let's be factual: they were stories in which Peter was single.
But, let's be factual: they were stories in which Peter was single.
Thanks for pointing out that all stories since OMD have been about a single Peter; I really hadn't noticed... because I have the IQ of a turnip? LOL! You're funny! Thanks for clearing up that fact! LOL!
To reiterate, I'm waiting for all the wonderful stories that Marvel was yearning to tell but could not do so because Peter was married. Ya know, stories that were so good that they justify the completely silly OMD plot line. You're right, David_D, because OMD was so absurd, I was expecting post-OMD stories to be something special, and something that could not have been done with a married Peter. I looked forward to fantastic yarns that had been dreamed up, but were unusable, during the 20+ years that Peter was married. Were post-OMD stories good? I will not debate that because the beauty of art is in the eye of the beholder (but, for the record, I certainly enjoyed most of them). My question has nothing to do with their quality (or lack thereof). Yet I will be happy to debate logic. My question was: Did any post-OMD story require an unmarried Peter (hence making OMD creatively necessary)? My answer? Definitely not, hence OMD was not creatively necessary.
Alas, as Paul clearly stated above, OMD was never creatively necessary; it did not pave the way for previously impossible tales that were just too good to hold back. Instead, the motivation for OMG, regardless of the nonsense that Joe Q was spouting at the time, was to get the title lots of attention and, perhaps, a bump in sales. Mission accomplished, Joe Q. Too bad you didn't have the courage to be honest about your motivation.
@TheMarvelMan Of course I know you're not dumb, but here's my point- the reason I am talking about things in terms of the facts is that I think the idea that they actually lied to you is a little strong. The fact is, OMD did lead to single Peter stories. They are just aren't the ones you wanted. But that is subjective. Whether it not they are good enough to justify OMD is also subjective. Quesada and Wacker and others might love these stories, who knows? A lot of people have enjoyed these post-OMD years. But that comes down to individual taste. Objectively I don't think they lied. I think that is an overstatement. They said OMD would lead to stories of a single Peter, and it has.
Clearly they didn't succeed in entertaining you enough to make you feel that it was worth it; and it is fair to feel disappointed with that. But I don't think that is the same as being lied to.
They said OMD would lead to stories of a single Peter, and it has.
Nope, that's actually not what Joe Q said. What he said was that OMD would lead to stories that could not be told unless Peter was unmarried. That is very different than simply promising stories about a single Peter.
So, to reiterate for a final time, I am not waiting for better stories; as I've repeatedly stated in this thread, I believe that the stories that have been told since OMD have been a big improvement over those of the past 10-15 years. I have been thrilled to see that a strong supporting cast returned to the book, and that Spidey's sense of humor returned as well. Contrary to David_D's assumption about or characterization of my position, I am certainly not disappointed in post-OMD stories; I really have enjoyed most of them. This is not, and has never been, the point. What I am waiting for are those stories that could not be told if Peter remained married. I'm not waiting for "single" stories or for better stories; I've gotten lots of each to date. I'm waiting for those that necessitated the removal of Peter's marriage to MJ... ya know, those that made OMD necessary (the topic of this thread).
Well said but it is ultimately an obvious and/or rhetorical question. It was unnecessary and pointless despite the good that came from OMD at least up until 698. Turns out OMD led to another equally unnecessary result.
They said OMD would lead to stories of a single Peter, and it has.
Nope, that's actually not what Joe Q said. What he said was that OMD would lead to stories that could not be told unless Peter was unmarried. That is very different than simply promising stories about a single Peter.
So, to reiterate for a final time, I am not waiting for better stories; as I've repeatedly stated in this thread, I believe that the stories that have been told since OMD have been a big improvement over those of the past 10-15 years. I have been thrilled to see that a strong supporting cast returned to the book, and that Spidey's sense of humor returned as well. Contrary to David_D's assumption about or characterization of my position, I am certainly not disappointed in post-OMD stories; I really have enjoyed most of them. This is not, and has never been, the point. What I am waiting for are those stories that could not be told if Peter remained married. I'm not waiting for "single" stories or for better stories; I've gotten lots of each to date. I'm waiting for those that necessitated the removal of Peter's marriage to MJ... ya know, those that made OMD necessary (the topic of this thread).
To be fair-- you yourself put "single" in quotes. So it seemed that you were saying that these were actually single stories was something actually up for debate.
I do get what you are saying, and I will be honest I did lose sight of the fact that you HAVE enjoyed the stories that have come since, you just question the thing four years ago that got to those stories. I guess part of what is hard for me to reconcile is that, you are enjoying most of the post-OMD stories. . . but these are stories where the marriage isn't there. So even though I get that your opinion is that undoing the marriage was unnecessary to make these stories possible. Okay. But if these current stories ARE possible, and are even enjoyable to you, and the marriage is not a part of them. . . then was the marriage necessary? Was something lost that you felt added anything? If you could add the marriage to these stories and not end up changing them much, then what, for you as a reader, did the marriage use to add? What does it say that you can enjoy so many stories about a single Peter? If the marriage has perhaps so little impact, was much really lost in OMD? Something to consider.
To get back to your original question of the topic-- and here we get into spoiler territory for the end of Amazing Spider-Man. Personally, I do think that Peter being single has really affected some of the current stories, especially the last story told in Amazing:
S P O I L E R S
SPOILERS Amazing Spider-Man 698-700
For me, the Doc Ock bodysnatching story is a great example of a story that the marriage would have radically changed. I won't say "made impossible" because, of course, nothing is impossible (especially when everything is hypothetical).
If Doc Ock did what he did to a married Peter, then a few things would be very different. First, for whatever period of time Doc Ock hides in his body, during Amazing and later in Superior, the reader would need to believe that Ock is immediately SO GOOD at pretending to be Peter that even the wife he goes home to every night doesn't know. That would say something pretty terrible about their marriage, and about MJ as a character.
Now, with a single Peter, Ock can body snatch, and then they just have a date night in which, even in that short amount of time, MJ eventually sees that something is off. That works. It can seem that Peter was being too forward, or strange, but "Peter" can leave that scene and just avoid MJ for awhile. And the disguise is maintained.
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
So, to me, those are some practical considerations of how a single Peter makes the current Spider-Man stories possible.
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Peter. :p
Wow. That's terrible.
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Peter. :p
Wow. That's terrible.
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
People were certainly up in arms about it at the time.
And for context, this is the introduction of the Chameleon into the Brand New Day Era of Spider-Man.
The "for laughs" part is that the roommate acts all clingy with (real) Peter. And Peter is merely annoyed, even though he knows what happened.
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Peter. :p
Wow. That's terrible.
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
People were certainly up in arms about it at the time.
And for context, this is the introduction of the Chameleon into the Brand New Day Era of Spider-Man.
The "for laughs" part is that the roommate acts all clingy with (real) Peter. And Peter is merely annoyed, even though he knows what happened.
That's pretty gross. I don't blame people for being up in arms about it at the time.
PS- To connect this back to the topic- this does not sound like one of the good post-OMD stories, but it is another story where it only works if Peter is single (otherwise it character assassinates the roommate for wanting to sleep with a married man, and later who she thinks is a married man. . . and if Peter and MJ were still married would they have a roommate?)
If the marriage has perhaps so little impact, was much really lost in OMD?
Yes, I really do believe that a great deal was lost. Continuity, and trust that story matters were both lost. Erasing a 20-year-long reality does not sit well with many fans. Continuity and trust are so important to life-long fans that many immediately dropped the book as soon as OMD happened. If you've listened to the "Spider-Man in the _____ Age" episodes on CGS, then you know that few people are bigger Spidey fans than Friend of the Show, Chris Eberle. Because continuity was crushed and his trust was violated via OMD, he no longer reads ASM, a title that he cherished for two decades. To me, that's significant. Hence, if I were in charge, I would not choose to make such an egregious move unless it enabled me to do something really wonderful afterwards. This is precisely what Joe Q promised us. He promised us wonderful stories that could not be told unless the marriage was erased. Well, we got some very good stories, but most easily could've been presented with a married Peter. And thus, we could've had our cake and eaten it too. They could have presented the vast majority of the enjoyable post-OMD stories with a married Peter, while avoiding the disenfranchisement of scores of fans.
And I agree with you completely about the recent events in #699 and #700. That would not have been nearly as easy to pull off if Peter were still married, and it's a crazy twist, and I cannot wait to see where they take it!
Thanks for the lively debate, David_D! It's been a lot of fun!
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
Reminds me of the Chameleon impersonating Peter and sleeping with his roommate.
Which was played for laughs.
Really?? I don't think I read that story. Yikes. Who was the Chameleon impersonating?
Peter. :p
Wow. That's terrible.
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
People were certainly up in arms about it at the time.
And for context, this is the introduction of the Chameleon into the Brand New Day Era of Spider-Man.
The "for laughs" part is that the roommate acts all clingy with (real) Peter. And Peter is merely annoyed, even though he knows what happened.
That's pretty gross. I don't blame people for being up in arms about it at the time.
PS- To connect this back to the topic- this does not sound like one of the good post-OMD stories, but it is another story where it only works if Peter is single (otherwise it character assassinates the roommate for wanting to sleep with a married man, and later who she thinks is a married man. . . and if Peter and MJ were still married would they have a roommate?)
It was a decent enough story, but dragged down by the "humor" part.
The only post-OMD story I read was Back in Black Cat. This title is a pun because its when they started a FWB relationship. I DON'T see MJ permitting this during marriage (without it leading to a threesome...and the porno based on the storyline.)
The only post-OMD story I read was Back in Black Cat. This title is a pun because its when they started a FWB relationship. I DON'T see MJ permitting this during marriage (without it leading to a threesome...and the porno based on the storyline.)
M
I don't know. I always thought MJ was a bit of a freak...
Comments
Anyway, thanks very much for your thoughts, David_D. You make some very good, and thought-provoking, points.
What I do not enjoy is such a heavy handed undoing of a well loved character's life to suit the whim of a particular creator/EIC. If he wanted Peter single then go with a Divorce, like Death, it happens. I have said it before in countless posts, to trade a marriage away for the life of an aging parental figure goes against nature. In a good life we bury our parents, I find it hard to believe even as guilty as he felt about Aunt May's death that he would make a deal with the devil to bring her back. It was sloppy and out of character and year's later when they tried to clean it up( One Moment in Time) it got sloppier.
One More Day created a new string of great stories but the road to get there was completely unnesecary
Even negative talk is good talk, because people are aware that something huge is happening. It's the rubbernecking syndrome that has everyone looking at the accident on the highway.
"People are dropping Spider-Man after 30 years of reading him? Holy crap! I've gotta see what's going on. Hey, I like these stories. I'll buy this book 3 times a month."
After that, it's people watching NASCAR not because they wanna see the cars go around in a circle, but because they're waiting for one to fall out of the circle, catastrophically.
"Can they keep up the quality 3 times a month?!? How soon will they reverse this?"
Creatively, unnecessary, but it was a business move that sold a ton of books, and that's what their real job is, whether we like it or not.
To reiterate, I'm waiting for all the wonderful stories that Marvel was yearning to tell but could not do so because Peter was married. Ya know, stories that were so good that they justify the completely silly OMD plot line. You're right, David_D, because OMD was so absurd, I was expecting post-OMD stories to be something special, and something that could not have been done with a married Peter. I looked forward to fantastic yarns that had been dreamed up, but were unusable, during the 20+ years that Peter was married. Were post-OMD stories good? I will not debate that because the beauty of art is in the eye of the beholder (but, for the record, I certainly enjoyed most of them). My question has nothing to do with their quality (or lack thereof). Yet I will be happy to debate logic. My question was: Did any post-OMD story require an unmarried Peter (hence making OMD creatively necessary)? My answer? Definitely not, hence OMD was not creatively necessary.
Alas, as Paul clearly stated above, OMD was never creatively necessary; it did not pave the way for previously impossible tales that were just too good to hold back. Instead, the motivation for OMG, regardless of the nonsense that Joe Q was spouting at the time, was to get the title lots of attention and, perhaps, a bump in sales. Mission accomplished, Joe Q. Too bad you didn't have the courage to be honest about your motivation.
Clearly they didn't succeed in entertaining you enough to make you feel that it was worth it; and it is fair to feel disappointed with that. But I don't think that is the same as being lied to.
So, to reiterate for a final time, I am not waiting for better stories; as I've repeatedly stated in this thread, I believe that the stories that have been told since OMD have been a big improvement over those of the past 10-15 years. I have been thrilled to see that a strong supporting cast returned to the book, and that Spidey's sense of humor returned as well. Contrary to David_D's assumption about or characterization of my position, I am certainly not disappointed in post-OMD stories; I really have enjoyed most of them. This is not, and has never been, the point. What I am waiting for are those stories that could not be told if Peter remained married. I'm not waiting for "single" stories or for better stories; I've gotten lots of each to date. I'm waiting for those that necessitated the removal of Peter's marriage to MJ... ya know, those that made OMD necessary (the topic of this thread).
Even though I grew up on MJ and Peter, I kind of like Peter dating different people, especially heroes.
Hell, I even lliked the idea of Spidey and Ms. Marvel. They're both foodies!
I do get what you are saying, and I will be honest I did lose sight of the fact that you HAVE enjoyed the stories that have come since, you just question the thing four years ago that got to those stories. I guess part of what is hard for me to reconcile is that, you are enjoying most of the post-OMD stories. . . but these are stories where the marriage isn't there. So even though I get that your opinion is that undoing the marriage was unnecessary to make these stories possible. Okay. But if these current stories ARE possible, and are even enjoyable to you, and the marriage is not a part of them. . . then was the marriage necessary? Was something lost that you felt added anything? If you could add the marriage to these stories and not end up changing them much, then what, for you as a reader, did the marriage use to add? What does it say that you can enjoy so many stories about a single Peter? If the marriage has perhaps so little impact, was much really lost in OMD? Something to consider.
To get back to your original question of the topic-- and here we get into spoiler territory for the end of Amazing Spider-Man. Personally, I do think that Peter being single has really affected some of the current stories, especially the last story told in Amazing:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
SPOILERS Amazing Spider-Man 698-700
For me, the Doc Ock bodysnatching story is a great example of a story that the marriage would have radically changed. I won't say "made impossible" because, of course, nothing is impossible (especially when everything is hypothetical).
If Doc Ock did what he did to a married Peter, then a few things would be very different. First, for whatever period of time Doc Ock hides in his body, during Amazing and later in Superior, the reader would need to believe that Ock is immediately SO GOOD at pretending to be Peter that even the wife he goes home to every night doesn't know. That would say something pretty terrible about their marriage, and about MJ as a character.
Now, with a single Peter, Ock can body snatch, and then they just have a date night in which, even in that short amount of time, MJ eventually sees that something is off. That works. It can seem that Peter was being too forward, or strange, but "Peter" can leave that scene and just avoid MJ for awhile. And the disguise is maintained.
Also, maybe more importantly-- tell a body snatching story with a married character, and no matter what you show, the reader will come to assume that the possessed body is going to have sex with the spouse. (Sure, I know, insert your favorite "sex after marriage" joke here). A possessed Peter trying to kiss MJ is an effective creep-out. A possessed Peter having sex with the wife who doesn't know that is not Peter is a rape. I haven't read Superior yet, but I would guess that is not where they are going to go. I don't think Ock, in Peter's body, is going to rape MJ.
So, to me, those are some practical considerations of how a single Peter makes the current Spider-Man stories possible.
Which was played for laughs.
Wow. That's terrible.
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
I would say, though, that even though that is wrong, I feel like people would be even more up in arms if it were a possessed man and his wife. (That is not to excuse the Chameleon/roommate thing. I didn't read it, but if she thought he was Peter at the time, I would call that a rape, too.)
People were certainly up in arms about it at the time.
And for context, this is the introduction of the Chameleon into the Brand New Day Era of Spider-Man.
The "for laughs" part is that the roommate acts all clingy with (real) Peter. And Peter is merely annoyed, even though he knows what happened.
And for context, this is the introduction of the Chameleon into the Brand New Day Era of Spider-Man.
The "for laughs" part is that the roommate acts all clingy with (real) Peter. And Peter is merely annoyed, even though he knows what happened.
That's pretty gross. I don't blame people for being up in arms about it at the time.
PS- To connect this back to the topic- this does not sound like one of the good post-OMD stories, but it is another story where it only works if Peter is single (otherwise it character assassinates the roommate for wanting to sleep with a married man, and later who she thinks is a married man. . . and if Peter and MJ were still married would they have a roommate?)
And I agree with you completely about the recent events in #699 and #700. That would not have been nearly as easy to pull off if Peter were still married, and it's a crazy twist, and I cannot wait to see where they take it!
Thanks for the lively debate, David_D! It's been a lot of fun!
PS- To connect this back to the topic- this does not sound like one of the good post-OMD stories, but it is another story where it only works if Peter is single (otherwise it character assassinates the roommate for wanting to sleep with a married man, and later who she thinks is a married man. . . and if Peter and MJ were still married would they have a roommate?)
It was a decent enough story, but dragged down by the "humor" part.
M