Episode 1374 Talkback: TV Talk on Arrow and Doctor Who

Pants

The season finales of 'Arrow' and 'Doctor Who' aired last week so we decided to discuss them as well as the seasons as a whole. Spoilers Sweetie! (59:04)

Listen here.

rebis

Tennant's scene in NotD

Greg

I'm so far behind on Dr. Who it's criminal. I'm starting over.

rebis

Hope this works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXAY7LyjcM&list=PL3633CDA48552F3E0

Pants, I'm assuming that you haven't seen the Pond Life prequels.

rebis

I wish this had been filmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k

greyman24

Just went back and watched the end bit with John Hurt again. Matt Smith Doctor doesn't say, "He's me before I was The Doctor." He says, "He's me." Then he says that the name he chose was like a promise, and that John Hurt was the one that broke the promise.

Based on that, the assumption would be that John Hurt was not Doctor Zero, but Doctor 12...or some other future Doctor (there have been some guesses that they will extend the Doctor beyond 12) who WAS named Doctor, but broke the promise of that name.

John_Steed

nice read >>>> http://www.kasterborous.com/2013/05/which-doctor-is-john-hurt/

Caliban

ctowner1

John_Steed said:

nice read >>>> http://www.kasterborous.com/2013/05/which-doctor-is-john-hurt/

Agreed. I particularly liked the reference to The Beast Below and the Dr' quote: “And then I’ll have to change my name – because I won’t be the Doctor anymore!” That ties in nicely w/the dialogue we heard between 11 & Hurt.

I like the idea that he's in between 8 & 9 and did bad stuff during the Time War. OTOH, since it's the 50th anniversary episode, having it tie back to the 1st Dr. might be interesting. Perhaps finally explain how Susan is his granddaughter?

e
L nny

LibraryBoy

John_Steed said:

nice read >>>> http://www.kasterborous.com/2013/05/which-doctor-is-john-hurt/

That definitely falls into line with my thinking, that Hurt isn't the Doctor, but an aspect of him given corporeal form. We've seen Time Lords do this before - K'Anpo Rimpoche and his future regeneration Cho Je, the 4th Doctor and the Watcher, even the Valeyard, who wasn't a definite future Doctor but, in the Master's words, "an amalgamation of the darker side of the Doctor’s nature… somewhere between [the Doctor’s] twelfth and thirteenth regeneration."

Hell, the Time Lords can even bring people back to life (the Master, Rassilon) and/or even just grant them an entirely new life cycle (the Master again... or at least he's offered that; the High Council never does follow through on that one).

Basically, there's lots of room for timey-wimey here, and I really hope that's where they go with it. Because if I'm being honest here, Moffat's blown through most (if not all) of the good will I had for him, and I'm not renumbering the Doctors just because he tells me I have to! :D

LibraryBoy

Also, while I do think the Grand Moff's tendency to make his companion characters The Most Important Characters in the History of the Program is a bit (where a bit = A LOT) too much, seeing Jenna get Forest Gumped in with past Doctors footage and stand-ins was pretty cool. Partially because I think I recognized most of the episodes they used (she interacted with scenes from The Five Doctors twice!), but also because it's just an awesome little 50th anniversary surprise. And it must've been really cool for the actors who got to stand in as Colin Baker walking down a hallway or as the back of Patrick Troughton's head!

JaxUr

I believe the Internet rumor you mentioned about Martian Manhunter was actually related to the upcoming Superman film. The rumor was he could be a Coulson -like character for any DCU movies. We shall see.

ShaneKelly

rebis said:

I wish this had been filmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k

WOW!!! Do I wish this had been filmed!!!! Thanks for sharing this.

ShaneKelly

Ok now on the matter of John Hurt. Doesn't Matt Smith say "he is me, before I took the name The Doctor"? Which is why I was thinking Doctor Zero.

I am going to try and watch the show again over the weekend and see. I just thought I would put this out there while I was thinking about it.

LibraryBoy

ShaneKelly said:

Ok now on the matter of John Hurt. Doesn't Matt Smith say "he is me, before I took the name The Doctor"? Which is why I was thinking Doctor Zero.

I am going to try and watch the show again over the weekend and see. I just thought I would put this out there while I was thinking about it.

Here's the dialogue from that scene (SPOILERS, obviously, but at this point in the thread, that should be a given:

Clara: Who’s that?

Doctor: Never mind, let’s get back.

Clara: But who is he?

Doctor: He’s me. There’s only me here, that’s the point. Now let’s get back.

Clara: But I never saw that one. I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you. You’re the eleventh Doctor.

Doctor: I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor.

Clara: I don’t understand.

Doctor: My name, my real name, that is not the point. The name I chose is, “the Doctor.” The name you choose, it’s like a promise you make. He’s the one who broke the promise. He is my secret.

OtherDoctor: What I did, I did without choice.

Doctor: I know.

OtherDoctor: In the name of peace and sanity.

Doctor: But not in the name of the Doctor!

ShaneKelly

Cool, thanks for posting that, much appreciated!

Webhead

LibraryBoy said:

Basically, there's lots of room for timey-wimey here, and I really hope that's where they go with it. Because if I'm being honest here, Moffat's blown through most (if not all) of the good will I had for him, and I'm not renumbering the Doctors just because he tells me I have to! :D

The problem I see is Moffat has painted himself in a corner and the only way out is he is gonna have to force a solution into the history of The Doctor by doing some creative revision or just ignore what has come before.

Here are some of the problems I see:


1. A Time Lord has twelve regenerations or thirteen lives so it cannot be a in-between Doctor. Even the Watcher was just a part of the regeneration between the fourth and fifth Doctor not a separate entity.

2. All The Doctors lives have been accounted for, if you are to believe The Master The Valeyard is what Matt Smith's Doctor will become before his next and last regeneration. The Master said "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and final regeneration," Since The Doctor meet The Valeyard but not the final regeneration it cannot be the thirteenth Doctor. Because Matt Smith's Doctor knew about Hurt's Doctor.

3. The Time Lords can give a new set of regenerations but since they are no more they would of have to giving it to him before the end of The Time War. So this would mean a renumbering of The Doctors because of what The Master said about where the Valeyard fits in The Doctor's timeline.

I'm hoping for something real creative from Moffat that does not trample on what has come before but I do not see it. I know he has said in past interviews that were aware that they were fast approaching the last of The Doctor's regenerations and had a way out but never said how they were gonna accomplish this.

JamieD

greyman24 said:

Just went back and watched the end bit with John Hurt again. Matt Smith Doctor doesn't say, "He's me before I was The Doctor." He says, "He's me." Then he says that the name he chose was like a promise, and that John Hurt was the one that broke the promise.

Based on that, the assumption would be that John Hurt was not Doctor Zero, but Doctor 12...or some other future Doctor (there have been some guesses that they will extend the Doctor beyond 12) who WAS named Doctor, but broke the promise of that name.

I watched it with my niece and I too dont think its Doctor Zero, I am leaning toward the between 9 and 10, the one that broke the promise and killed all the Daleks and helped end the TimeLords. we will see how it plays out

ctowner1

Webhead said:

LibraryBoy said:

Basically, there's lots of room for timey-wimey here, and I really hope that's where they go with it. Because if I'm being honest here, Moffat's blown through most (if not all) of the good will I had for him, and I'm not renumbering the Doctors just because he tells me I have to! :D

The problem I see is Moffat has painted himself in a corner and the only way out is he is gonna have to force a solution into the history of The Doctor by doing some creative revision or just ignore what has come before.

Here are some of the problems I see:


1. A Time Lord has twelve regenerations or thirteen lives so it cannot be a in-between Doctor. Even the Watcher was just a part of the regeneration between the fourth and fifth Doctor not a separate entity.

2. All The Doctors lives have been accounted for, if you are to believe The Master The Valeyard is what Matt Smith's Doctor will become before his next and last regeneration. The Master said "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and final regeneration," Since The Doctor meet The Valeyard but not the final regeneration it cannot be the thirteenth Doctor. Because Matt Smith's Doctor knew about Hurt's Doctor.

3. The Time Lords can give a new set of regenerations but since they are no more they would of have to giving it to him before the end of The Time War. So this would mean a renumbering of The Doctors because of what The Master said about where the Valeyard fits in The Doctor's timeline.

I'm hoping for something real creative from Moffat that does not trample on what has come before but I do not see it. I know he has said in past interviews that were aware that they were fast approaching the last of The Doctor's regenerations and had a way out but never said how they were gonna accomplish this.

I think if it occurred during the Time War, that gives them some leeway to do something funky outside of the standard 12 Regenerations. Plus, we don't know what the effect of River giving the Dr her time energy in Let's Kill Hitler had on the Dr. Perhaps THAT gave him another 12 (or less) (or more) lives? So they could easily have Hurt be an additional regeneration.

Or perhaps he's a temporary body? We saw Romana "try on" a few bodies before picking one - and that clearly wasn't her going through successive regenerations. So perhaps he is Hurt for such a short time that it doesn't "stick" as a separate regeneration.

e
L nny

Webhead

ctowner1 said:

Or perhaps he's a temporary body? We saw Romana "try on" a few bodies before picking one - and that clearly wasn't her going through successive regenerations. So perhaps he is Hurt for such a short time that it doesn't "stick" as a separate regeneration.

e
L nny

Let's not go there, that scene has left a bad taste in more than one Doctor Who fan. It's never been explained to any level of satisfaction to me, Some have said she did waste all those regenerations, some have said it was the Tardis that allowed her to do it.

rebis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s
12? The Doctor can regenerate 507 times.

ShaneKelly

Well now that is a clip I never saw before. I thought I saw all the Sarah Jane shows.

LibraryBoy

ShaneKelly said:

Well now that is a clip I never saw before. I thought I saw all the Sarah Jane shows.

A lot of fan talk about that line not being "canonical" and that it was just the Doctor trying to stop Clyde from asking so many questions.

That clip is from The Death of the Doctor, by the way, and it's a great Sarah Jane Adventures story. It brings back another familiar face from show history (won't spoil who) and if you listen closely, there's a lot of info in there about what some other companions got up to after their time with the Doctor ended.

ShaneKelly

LibraryBoy said:

ShaneKelly said:

Well now that is a clip I never saw before. I thought I saw all the Sarah Jane shows.

A lot of fan talk about that line not being "canonical" and that it was just the Doctor trying to stop Clyde from asking so many questions.

That clip is from The Death of the Doctor, by the way, and it's a great Sarah Jane Adventures story. It brings back another familiar face from show history (won't spoil who) and if you listen closely, there's a lot of info in there about what some other companions got up to after their time with the Doctor ended.

Very cool, I will look it up. I totally agree it sounded like the Doctor just picks that number but it is still a fun clip.

Thanks for sharing.

raven

it was on bleeding cool ages ago john hurt is the doctor 8.5, he was spotted wearing the same clothes as Christopher Eccleston wore as the doctor. The jacket in "the name of the doctor" john hurt is wearing does look a bit like the jacket Paul McGann wore, but worn out.

gothamkid

Some spoilers here, but with clips of Totters Lane and the Coal Hill Scho0l with a Headmaster Ian Chesterton being teased, what I want most out of the 50th anniversary special, moreso than even multiple doctors, is for William Russell to be in it, even as a cameo, reprising his role as Ian Chesterton. Other than Carol Anne Ford, he's the only one still around from the beginning of the show.

shroud68

I envy Pants in that he is discovering Doctor Who for the first time but my fear is that he will be let down by some of the weaker episodes of the past series. The nature of Doctor Who was much different 30+ years ago in that while story arcs were there, Keys of Time, Black Guardian, E Space, essentially Doctor Who was a cliffhanger serial. Yes there are some excellent adventure tales like Pyramid of Mars or some minor classics like City of Death but on a whole Doctor Who in it's first incarnation is a different animal thatn what we are watching today. Brace yourself Pants, your heading into some strange waters once you get Amazon Prime.

alienal

I finally watched the first episode of Arrow on some European website that plays American TV shows. It wasn't bad. I'll probably try to watch a few more. As for Doctor Who, I'm still not caring about it at all. I like you guys enthusiasm about the show, but I'm kinda glad I won't have to hear about it for awhile....(right?).