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Mark Millar: Comics Aren't for Women (Via i09)

Mark Interview
Take some of his portrayals of women, for example. Millar has spoken out against the underrepresentation of female characters in comics, but his depictions of rape have alienated some readers. In Wanted, the sadistic protagonist gleefully commits rape over and over again, at one time bragging that he “raped an A-list celebrity and it didn’t even make the news.” In The Authority, a Captain America analog rapes two unconscious women. In issue four of Kick-Ass 2, a group of bad guys finds the young hero’s love interest, a teenaged girl named Katie, and brutally gang-rapes her.

“You’re done banging superheroes, baby,” the ringleader says, punching her and unzipping his fly, “it’s time to see what evil dick tastes like.”
LA Times story about documentary "Superheroes: the never ending battle"

"I think our series reflects the evolution of our culture. And women and minorities have been marginalized throughout history, so they were marginalized in comics," Kantor said.

Conway added, "I think the bigger question is why readers are not interested in those characters. Comics follow society. They don’t lead society, they reflect it."

Blog Post by i09 regarding comics not being for women anymore
You know, I've heard this same crap over and over from bigotry-entrenched trolls on the Internet, but I've also heard this same crap denounced roundly by over half of the guys I know who read comics.

Comments

  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited August 2013
    To be clear, especially for those that might not follow the links- "Comics aren't for women" is not a Millar quote, so the title of this thread may be misleading.

    It is the summation of a blogger as to what they think Millar and McFarlane are messaging out in their work. And a case can be made that his work is alienating in the way the blogger says. But to be clear, Millar has not actually come out and said it.
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.
  • Peter said:

    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.

    That is what Millar said directly in the interview. Like even if that is your agenda, maybe you should not announce it to people. Oversharing seems to be a big issue as of late.
  • John_SteedJohn_Steed Posts: 2,087
    All "my" women read comics.
  • CalibanCaliban Posts: 1,358
    And the really annoying thing is that Mark Millar has already sold the film rights to that title.
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited August 2013

    Peter said:

    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.

    That is what Millar said directly in the interview.
    BZZZZT. Wrong. He did not come out and say 'Rape doesn't matter'. There's context. There's an issue he was addressing. It wasn't like someone asked him 'What do you think of rape?' And he responded 'Rape doesn't matter'. But that's what the hit baiting article titles are making it out to be. The fuller context may not be right either, but trying to paint that's what he said is just as dumb.

    Ugh. Havin to defend Mark Millar. What a shitty Sunday. Lol
  • Peter said:

    Peter said:

    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.

    That is what Millar said directly in the interview.
    BZZZZT. Wrong. He did not come out and say 'Rape doesn't matter'. There's context. There's an issue he was addressing. It wasn't like someone asked him 'What do you think of rape?' And he responded 'Rape doesn't matter'. But that's what the hit baiting article titles are making it out to be. The fuller context may not be right either, but trying to paint that's what he said is just as dumb.

    Ugh. Havin to defend Mark Millar. What a shitty Sunday. Lol
    Okay here is the quote from Millar himself,

    "The ultimate [act] that would be the taboo, to show how bad some villain is, was to have somebody being raped, you know? I don’t really think it matters. It’s the same as, like, a decapitation. It’s just a horrible act to show that somebody’s a bad guy."

    Does the context change anything? No it does not. This is something he said directly in an interview. It rude, nasty, and horrible that he does not think the through the inclusion of rape in his books. Atleast try to hide that you do not care, instead it just shows that he is not thinking his story through.

    Nobody should be defending Millar, he is an idiot.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    Peter said:

    Peter said:

    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.

    That is what Millar said directly in the interview.
    BZZZZT. Wrong. He did not come out and say 'Rape doesn't matter'. There's context. There's an issue he was addressing. It wasn't like someone asked him 'What do you think of rape?' And he responded 'Rape doesn't matter'. But that's what the hit baiting article titles are making it out to be. The fuller context may not be right either, but trying to paint that's what he said is just as dumb.

    Ugh. Havin to defend Mark Millar. What a shitty Sunday. Lol
    Okay here is the quote from Millar himself,

    "The ultimate [act] that would be the taboo, to show how bad some villain is, was to have somebody being raped, you know? I don’t really think it matters. It’s the same as, like, a decapitation. It’s just a horrible act to show that somebody’s a bad guy."

    Does the context change anything? No it does not. This is something he said directly in an interview. It rude, nasty, and horrible that he does not think the through the inclusion of rape in his books. Atleast try to hide that you do not care, instead it just shows that he is not thinking his story through.

    Nobody should be defending Millar, he is an idiot.
    Looking at that quote, he is not saying that rape doesn't matter. He is saying that, to him, the horror and taboo of rape is no different than the horror and taboo of a decapitation. That BOTH are horrible acts that show how bad a character is.

    Now, I am not saying I agree with him that there isn't a difference between a reliance on the taboo around rape in a story vs. a reliance on the taboo of killing. But let's be clear, a summary that he is saying "Rape doesn't matter" is not an honest takeaway from his longer quote. We could only believe that if we think he is also saying that it doesn't matter if a character decapitates people. Because that is what he is comparing it to. He is saying THE DIFFERENCE between those two taboo acts of violence does not matter. Which, one may disagree with, sure. But that is not the same as, simply, rape=doesn't matter.
  • David_D said:

    Peter said:

    Peter said:

    Totally agree. The spin on several 'articles' this week is more about drumming up outrage than truly looking for discourse. I'm not the biggest Millar fan, but the whole 'he said rape doesn't matter' outcry is such a spin. In a way, that kind of spin is also using a tragedy to 'sell' something, namely their agenda.

    Looking at that quote, he is not saying that rape doesn't matter. He is saying that, to him, the horror and taboo of rape is no different than the horror and taboo of a decapitation. That BOTH are horrible acts that show how bad a character is.

    Now, I am not saying I agree with him that there isn't a difference between a reliance on the taboo around rape in a story vs. a reliance on the taboo of killing. But let's be clear, a summary that he is saying "Rape doesn't matter" is not an honest takeaway from his longer quote. We could only believe that if we think he is also saying that it doesn't matter if a character decapitates people. Because that is what he is comparing it to. He is saying THE DIFFERENCE between those two taboo acts of violence does not matter. Which, one may disagree with, sure. But that is not the same as, simply, rape=doesn't matter.
    You are right. There is some context that I am not factoring in.
  • Sometimes I think Mark Millar says and does things to cause controversy, I met him and had a couple of drinks with him when he was at Thought Bubble (Leeds) in around 2008 and he was a true gentleman but I have to strongly disagree, rape and decapitation are too TOTALLY different things when showing it in the media.
    It would be fine it rape was used as a plot device to both sexes but it's not, it's used against women in 95% of cases in comics either because "she was asking for it" (attempted in Watchmen) or "to get back at male superheroes (Identity Crisis). There are other examples such as the sexual abuse of Black Cat, Huntress etc.
    I think there is a huge misunderstanding of the damage rape actually does and what can haunt you afterwards. I have a feeling that you'll never get someone who is the victim of sexual assault using it as such a throw away plot device, it is a truly damaging thing.
    Sorry for the bit of a rant but I feel like rape is used far too easily in the comics and games industry.
  • Sometimes I think Mark Millar says and does things to cause controversy, I met him and had a couple of drinks with him when he was at Thought Bubble (Leeds) in around 2008 and he was a true gentleman but I have to strongly disagree, rape and decapitation are too TOTALLY different things when showing it in the media.
    It would be fine it rape was used as a plot device to both sexes but it's not, it's used against women in 95% of cases in comics either because "she was asking for it" (attempted in Watchmen) or "to get back at male superheroes (Identity Crisis). There are other examples such as the sexual abuse of Black Cat, Huntress etc.
    I think there is a huge misunderstanding of the damage rape actually does and what can haunt you afterwards. I have a feeling that you'll never get someone who is the victim of sexual assault using it as such a throw away plot device, it is a truly damaging thing.
    Sorry for the bit of a rant but I feel like rape is used far too easily in the comics and games industry.

    Well spoken.
  • KrescanKrescan Posts: 623

    I have a feeling that you'll never get someone who is the victim of sexual assault using it as such a throw away plot device, it is a truly damaging thing.

    To be fair no one who is a victim of decapitation is going to do it either.

    I'm sorry I truly couldn't stop myself

    I wonder which is worse. The person that sees it written or hears the person saying the quote and then takes a few words out of context to make their article jump out more.

    OR

    The person that gets hearsay about something and then condemns it without actually ever watched/listened to the offending subject matter.

    I always think back to Jerry Falwell condemning the Teletubbies for being a gay role model because Tinky Winky was purple and had a triangle antenna. I could have sworn he also said because he carried a purse but I can't find that part in the quote from him. I remember someone asking him if he'd ever watched the show and he said that no he'd never watched it.

    If anything Tinky Winky was a role model for spouting gibberish and not making a whole lot of sense.

    Sorry went from rape to teleltubbies there. Also I'm a Millar fan so who knows what's really wrong with me.

    Just try not to judge a book by it's cover and if you decide to publicly judge it then you should at least thumb through the book or read the first chapter.

  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Lamarr: "Crimes?"
    Thug: "Rape, murder, arson, and rape."
    Lamarr: "You said rape twice."
    Thug: "I like rape."

    :)

    I think it's the monstrosity of rape that makes it such an easy cop-out for writers to use. In a comic, a decapitation would almost be comical (pardon the pun) and killing rarely happens with any kind of permanence. Rape, however, will follow a character for the rest of their existence in a book. It will color everything they do, and how other characters who know about it react to them.

    I'm not against using rape in a book (what a horrible sentence to say!) because I don't want it to be something that people never use because it obviously will never exist and go away if we never talk about it. All too often, though, it's used for the instant shock value, and then quickly swept under the rug and forgotten. I'm not a fan of that either.



  • I have read a lot of Mark Millar's work and sat down and spoken with him. I wasn't aiming all my anger at him, my comments were over the industry as a whole (including the games industry).

    I agree completely that people who take the subject matter or quote are awful however I have read and watched a lot of Mark Millar's interviews and read/watch/played offending materials. I can also speak about it from a, kind of, victims point of view (see the why people love comics thread).

    I think he does things to be inflammatory, as in person I know in person he is a sweet and polite person. However part of me feels that he does speak what a large proportion think and that what makes him out to be the bad guy.

    I think the point I was trying to make was that yes Mark Millar's comments were wrong but the problem is an media wide thing, not just one man being hailed as he satan of the comic book world.

    Sorry if this is gibberish, I don't know if I'm explaining it right.
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    You're explaining it perfectly well.

    By the way - the author not listing the question he asked to elicit such a response is bad form. Again, makes it seem like Millar just brought it up for the sake of saying shit. He was obviously asked a question - either based on someone's criticism of his work or whatever. And the quote was probably spoken - so it doesn't translate into text. Or people are missing the connecting thoughts because it's easier to make an issue of it. But none of that is apparent, especially when it was the author that wrote "they are equivalent". He says Millar said that - but nowhere is that in quotes or from Millar directly. It's the author making assumptions. Bad writing.

    Defending Mark Millar day 2. I need a shower. lol
  • I assume everyone on this thread is staying away from Kick-Ass 2 the movie whether or not it has rape?
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Nope. I'll go see it.*

    I own and love Wanted, the Ultimates, all the Kick Ass books, and enjoyed the hell out of The Authority.

    *Going to see it may involve picking up the DVD or Netflixing it. I rarely go to the theater unless it's something I *have* to see on the big screen. That said, I enjoyed the first movie quite a bit.
  • I assume everyone on this thread is staying away from Kick-Ass 2 the movie whether or not it has rape?

    I'm staying away. I didn't even bother with Kick-Ass 1, despite encouragement from several friends.
  • I assume everyone on this thread is staying away from Kick-Ass 2 the movie whether or not it has rape?

    As much as I love Jim Carey I won't be seeing it, I wasn't overly impressed with the first one.

  • KrescanKrescan Posts: 623
    Definitely going to see it, and now I have to go check out this "The Authority" thing Torchsong speaks of.

    I also very much liked Superior. Most likely on a Tuesday since it's cheaper on Tuesday.
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    The Authority will kick your ass and take down names.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Torchsong said:

    The Authority will kick your ass and take down names.

    And don't forget to start back with the Ellis/Hitch stuff. I really enjoyed what Millar and Quitely did on Authority, but they were just running with the ball that. . . um. . . (crap, I started a sports metaphor and have no idea what I'm saying) Ellis and Hitch. . . kicked? Something like that. I would even recommend going back to Ellis and Hitch's "Final Orbit" story of Stormwatch, as The Authority really starts there.

  • KrescanKrescan Posts: 623
    I will check that out. What timing! Turns out DCBS has vol 2 HC which is Millar's run for 17.50 this month. Maybe my LCS has the first one in stock.
  • Awesome after Ellis/Hitch and Millar on that title is it still worth reading?
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    I stuck with it for quite some time. For me it was always about character - I dug the Doctor, Engineer, and Jack Hawksmoor. I believe there's a different Doctor these days, but Jack and the Engineer are still the same people.

    I loved the whole "facist liberal agenda" they had. :)
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    I also feel like they, as much as any other comic, really grabbed the zeitgeist of 'War on Terror' era. Where there was an audience not only for power fantasies, but even specifically for interventionist power fantasies. It is like a Squadron Supreme/ Miracleman story, only played matter-of-fact rather than as allegory.
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