Episode 1406 Talkback: Comic Talk
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In this episode we give our thoughts on some of the recent news about DC Comics - the allocations of the 3D Villains covers, Kevin Maguire being removed from Justice League 3000, Forevil Evil and more. Plus we ask the question - what comic/geek related item takes your mind back to when you were a kid? (1:25:41)
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Between my son (12) and daughter (10) they are reading: Adventure Time, Simpsons, Bart Simpson, Futurama, Bravest Warriors, Transformers, My Little Pony and Garfield. Transformers has some subject material that some may find touchy.
They have little to no interest in reading superhero books from DC and Marvel. My daughter has interest in the Hulk, but the Agents of SMASH doesn't appeal to her. My son is going on 13 and he wants to read Deadpool.
So, these books with the special covers for villains month, what happens if a retailer gets a box of damaged comics?
With Robinson off of Earth 2, that is being dropped. That leaves Worlds' Finest as my only regularly bought DC title.
Too much of the stories feel like a 'play-by-the-numbers' approach instead of any organic storytelling. I don't really feel any chemistry among the characters, and, in fact, what little there is (such as the Superman-Wonder Woman romance) feels manufactured. They take forever to get through a story, to the point where the story feels very heavily padded. A lot of the characters are so altered from their pre-New52 incarnations (yes, I probably should just ignore that and take the New52-ers for what they currently are, but -- damn it!! -- I can't) that they feel like aliens or actors playing the wrong roles. Or, as in some cases (Amanda Waller), are so different as to be so, so wrong and unappealing.
And, with the exception of the Justice League's debut story against Darkseid, all of the stories and villains are really unmemorable. I can't even remember what the JL's second story was about anymore. What villains have we had? Darkseid. Some guy who was upset about his family dying. An alternate version of Timothy Hunter. I forget who else. Oh, and we recently had an issue of the Justice League that didn't have the Justice League in it; instead, we got the new, darker and hoodie-wearing Captain Mar--, er, I mean, Shazam.
Too many crossovers. You know, sometimes I feel that the whole DC Universe right now has been plotted out for the next five years, and every little corner of it has been meticulously designed from the get-go, with all of these threads and events bumping into one another, connections made out so far in advance that we just can't get surprised when they do happen. There's a sort of -- planned spontaneity to it all.
We've also had a lot of bait-and-switch with the artists. We were promised Jim Lee, who vanished after the first story arc. (Not that I particularly care, in this case, but still, that was a selling point of the book.) Justice League Of America was supposed to have David Finch for the first five issues, but who vanished after #3. (No surprise, given his past performance on the Dark Knight book.)
You know which JLA book looked to be the most interesting? The one they pulled the rug out from under: Justice League International. It might not have fare any better than the others, but I thought it at least had a stronger start and a more interesting team.
It really is amazing to think about just how far DC has fallen in so short a time. The New 52 was obviously a huge success when it debuted -- a somewhat bigger commercial success than a critical hit, but still. I know that some fans were totally turned off by the reboot, but I think a strong majority of readers were willing to give it a chance and were fairly happy with it for at least the first 5-6 months. Certainly the sale figures spoke to that, and you didn't hear nearly so many negative anecdotes about DC.
If I remember right, Rob Liefeld was actually one of the first creators to speak out against the current DC editorial configuration. That was a year ago, in August of '12. And at the time most of fandom seemed to roll their eyes at Liefeld.
What a difference a year makes. In the last twelve months we've seen what seems to be an endless wave of mismanagements, both on the creative and retailer end.
I think formerly optimistic fans have been realizing that TOO MUCH WAS LOST in rebooting the continuity. At least, that's how I feel. At first I was simply excited to read a bunch of fresh new titles and (somewhat) new takes on characters. But that sense of newness wore off six months in. After that I started realizing that I don't really KNOW any (or "many") of these characters. I have no history with them. It seems like DC wants me to believe this universe already has a sense of depth that it just doesn't have. Rather than build these characters from the ground up, they (for the most part) shuttled us into their continuity five years in. So it always feels like we're missing something. Or we never know what's "real" or what "counted" or carried over from pre-Flashpoint. For one example, we have the endless speculation over whether or not certain aspects of Batman's continuity actually happened, how he had four Robins in five years, etc. For another example, the disjuncture between what Morrison did on Action Comics, which may be good enough for what it was (at least to some people, myself included), but seemed really out of place next to the other Superman titles.
About the Kevin Maguire situation: It just strikes me as ridiculous that DC would hire the guy, solicit the title with his artwork, and then change their minds a month or two after everyone has seen the project as it was. Considering what the Justice League 3000 title is supposed to be about -- an edgy/grim future -- I DO think that Howard Porter would be a better fit. So why did DC hire Maguire for this project in the first place? Just because they associate his name with the names of the writers on the project? Are they that shortsighted? (I associate Mark Bagley's name with Brian Bendis -- doesn't mean I'd hire Bagley to do an arc of Bendis's Scarlett.) Then they get Maguire's art back, apparently approve of it, put out the solicits and show the artwork off . . . and only THEN do they stop and think that they want to change artists. For god's sake, is it really worth it at that point, to look like idiots in public, screw up the solicitations, and put your new series behind the 8-ball? Why not just give Maguire the first two or three or four issues and THEN switch over to Porter?
It just seems like there are so many other ways DC could handle things, but lately they always seem to opt for decisions that piss off creators, fans, and retailers.
Most everything that everyone else has said in this thread rings true to me. I'll just add one other aspect of the cluster-F:
"Batman". Yeah, it's DC's best-selling title and people generally like it. But have you looked at the solicits?
In September, as most people know, there are four issues of Batman, $3.99 each for 20 pages of story.
Then in October we have Batman #24, $6.99 for 64 pages, or probably 40 pages of story.
Then in November we have Batman #25, $4.99 for 40 pages total, which usually works out to 30 pages of story. And this issue has a "special cover", which just looks like the same cover as the first "Zero Year" issue from a few months ago . . . except this cover is darker and "embossed".
That means that if you want to follow the core Batman title, you're paying $28 over three months. Or if you just want to follow the issues Snyder writes, it's still $16.
So, I'm sorry, I generally think the guy's writing is okay . . . but (confession time) I have to generally liked Scott Lobdell's writing as well. A writer can be a good writer and still be entrenched in negative aspects of the comics industry. Some writers are just connected to a lot of gimmickery and excess, and at this point I think Snyder is part of the problem. People can hypothesize that this is all editorial's fault, and that they're "forcing" him to write big bloated issues that are part of crossovers and events. But look at the evidence. Everything he's done in the DC Universe has been connected to huge gigantic arcs/crossovers/events. "Zero Year" was his idea. Just like the endless slog of "Rotworld", which killed the critical acclaim of Animal Man, was his idea. I'm not saying he's a bad writer. I'm not saying I haven't enjoyed a lot of his stuff. I have. But, enough with the excess, gimmicks, crossovers, events, special covers, and tie-in opportunities already. Yes, he's an enthusiastic writer. But if you're "enthusiasm" means lots of opportunities for excess and gimmicks, I can't stay on board with you. He's literally given us four crossovers/events in less than two years time. At a certain point, you can't blame that all on editorial. If even half of this happened on a Liefeld or Lobdell book, people would be damning the creative staff and calling them out.
I'm down to just Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman, and Batwoman. I'd heartily recommend any of those titles to anyone. Charles Soule is doing great, interconnected 1- and 2-parters that really give a less experienced Alec Holland a chance to grow in interesting ways. Azzarello has created a wonderful supporting cast and a nice reinterpretation of WW's mythology. And as of late JH Williams and friends have been giving us Kate Kane stories that are JUST as good as those when Rucka was writing and JH was drawing. (Yes, even though JH is off of art-duties, I think the title is as good as it's ever been.) It's worth pointing out that neither Azzarello or JH Williams really care to have their titles fit into crossovers or events. They're telling their own stories and actually building their characters. They're not fighting "Trinity Wars", or having Superman somewhat randomly make out with their title character, or getting involved with "Owls" or the Joker, out of some sort of peer-pressure idea of "That's what everyone else is doing".
PS. If DC really wants to sell to 45-year-olds, I don't know why they got rid of their old continuity.
At Heroes Con this year, she bought a bunch of DCs and Marvels (mostly ’80s and early ’90s) from a five-for-a-buck box. She also got the first two Adventure Time trades. She read both the AT trades three times that weekend, and again on the way home. She hasn’t even gotten halfway through the DC/Marvel stack yet.
She loved the Tiny Titans book, but, you know, DC doesn’t publish anymore. I’m sure if they did a new Titans Go! in the style of the current cartoon, she would want it.
Re: the end of the show, I still have my Death Star (and my Millenium Falcon too), and it’s intact, except for a few missing pieces of styrofoam from the trash compactor, and the ion cannon doesn’t lock into place anymore. Definitely my favorite playset when I was a kid. Thankfully my mom didn’t sell it like she did all my Star Trek Mego figures (and I had most of them and the vinyl Enterprise playset). I still bug her about that now and then.
p.s. Im 36, DC - I guess im not your target audience anyway.
http://comicsbeat.com/didio-appearance-of-turmoil-at-dc-is-caused-by-social-media/
where DiDio is said to have mentioned that DC would be losing money on each 3d covered comic printed and sold at $3.99. My guess is that it wasn't a mismanagement of printing too few but instead it was smart management (well, smart AFTER the fact) of someone stepping in and saying, "we're losing on each cover? we better not print too many!"
Plastic Slurpee Cups. I love the wrap around series.
Major Matt Mason
Aurora Comic Scene Model Kits
Mego, World's Greatest Super-Heroes
Filmation Cartoons. Their Flash Gordon is classic.
Gil Kane & John Romita artwork
youtube.com/watch?v=zAJ1wE0vvno
"I don't like DC right now."
"I don't like DC right now."
"I don't like DC right now."
I heard that same line on a lot of podcasts over and over, but when it's new information like what is going on with DC or when maybe you tried something you haven't tried before like maybe you dropped Green Arrow, but tried it again when Lemire took over, that's all worthy of speaking about because it's new and fresh and not just a rehashing.
I have not listened to the full episode yet, but even with the negative news, I'm enjoying all of your perspectives. It's so sad that a big company like DC has basically threw their hands up and gave up on comics for kids or all ages. I think there are real potential out there for those comics and there are definitely characters worthy of that treatment. Looking at Marvel, who isn't much better with comics for all ages, I would say that Nova is a great all ages comic.
Shane, I would say that your son may like the new animated TMNT comic that just came out. It's based on the new show and has the same feel as the show. He'll probably really like that and only the first issue has come out so far.
I am really enjoying Trinity War so far and I am hoping that I do get all of the covers that I paid for since I got the bundle through DCBS. If something happens and I don't, then of course I won't blame DCBS. They are awesome in trying to do what they can. I can't believe DC is making it seem like it's anyone's error but their own and everyone else is suffering because of it.
So ridiculous with what they did to Maguire. I was excited about him being on that title. I don't know what they are doing to creators, but so many are running for the hills. It's sad. I'm sure it's not all one sided when you look at every creator that is leaving DC, but obviously there is a problem with this many good people leaving or being forced to leave.
bleedingcool.com/2013/08/14/dc-comics-state-3d-cover-shortage-down-to-limited-paper-stock/
and if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you...
It’s a rhetorical question—I already know the answer—but I think the question is worth considering. After all look how much money Marvel is making with all those Disney property comics they took from Boom! (They only have three magazines compared to the dozen or so comics Boom! seemed to be doing quite well with.)
DiDio may have made that comment, but I think it also may have been Paul Levitz who was publisher at that time.
For me there are a few items, but they are broad scoping items.
Anything vintage Star Wars, G.I. Joe, Transformers, or Masters of the Universe will take me back because those were huge in my youth (and watching the old cartoons will do that also). I was one of those kids that had the USS Flagg when I was a kid. Oh, and Shane, the plane that came out of the Terror Drome was called the Firebat. I loved the USS Flagg. Best playset ever.
The Muppets Show and almost anything Muppets will take me back.
Legos and other building sets from when I was a kid will take me back. I was all about building with Legos, Construx, Capsules, Robotix, etc. when I was a kid. And I have a few sets now that are Star Wars and TMNT, but I would love to get that Death Star set of Legos. Will have to save my pennies.
Regardless of who said it or the context/time in which it was said, "we make comics for 45 year olds" is an upsetting and short-sighted statement to make, but DC's publishing policy for the last several years has reflected just that, so I can't say it comes as a surprise. They have their kids line and their adults line, and rarely any attempt to appeal to anything in between. But on the other hand, some very good books designed to appeal to a wider demographic that they have put out there - Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam, The Family Dynamic, Superman Family Adventures, Supergirl: Cosmic Adventures in the 8th Grade - just didn't sell because too much of the audience equates "All Ages" with "Kids Only" so they ignore them completely. It's a damn shame they seem to outright reject the idea of attempting to appeal to a wide range of readers and/or court untapped demographics, but at the same time, the sales numbers kind of bear that out.
But these are the same people who seem to think that marketing Wonder Woman (a freaking princess superhero) comics/cartoons/toy lines to little girls wouldn't be a license to print money, so I'm constantly suspicious of their judgment.
As for my own kid, he'll read some superhero comics if I give them to him or read them with him, but on the whole he's just not that interested in them. Mostly he comes into comics through the games he likes... he reads Garfield and the occasional Simpsons book because he has Garfield and Simpsons games for his DS. I hear there might be an Angry Birds comic coming down the line, he'll probably want to check that out. And if they were to put out comics with the Super Mario Brothers or Minecraft he'd be all over those like a fat kid on cake (seriously, why doesn't anyone have the Mario license right now?).
His absolute favorite comic right now is a webstrip called Monster Haiku. He has the first two print collections of those and reads them over and over again.
Things that take me back are definitely Marvel Value Stamps (so much so, that that's my own website), and like @rebis , super-hero Slurpee cups, especially the Marvel, single-figure mid-70's ones.
But I also have a fondness for an old Marvel sticker set -- I believe they were sold in packets in the 70's -- and came across some that I didn't even know I still had a few years back. They all had goofy sayings that, I'm sure, were cool when I was like 8 or whatever. I also love Wacky Packages stickers.
Here's some of the Marvel stickers that I scanned just now. I think they also included a puzzle piece of a cover that had checklists on the back....and one Wacky Package sticker (I think) -- the only one I still have: