Episode 1442 Talkback - Spotlight on The X-Men in the Chromium Age, Part One
Adam_Murdough
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Our 50th Anniversary X-travaganza continues, as the CGS 'Blue Team' (Chris Eberle, Dani O'Brien, and Jamie Hatton) journeys from Jersey to join the CGS 'Gold Team' (Shane, Murd, and Jamie D) in discussing a most prolific period of X-history: the 1990s! Covered in this episode are the introduction of Bishop; the transformation of Psylocke; the launch of the millions-selling 'X-Men' (vol. 2) title; the 'X-Tinction Agenda,' 'X-Cutioner's Song,' and 'Fatal Attractions' crossovers; and much more. (2:32:04)
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So, this is Part One... over two and a half hours... only to take us through 1993. Hahaha!
Can't wait to listen!
That is the last issue of Uncanny I bought.
Essentially, Longshot was birthed/created from the DNA of Shatterstar, who was jettisoned into the past along with Rictor at the conclusion of X-Factor's Hell on Earth storyline. Longshot then impregnated Dazzler way down the line, who then gave birth to Shatterstar; the adult Shatterstar then sent his baby self into the future and erased Dazzler and Longshot's memories of ever even having a kid in order to preserve his own timeline. So essentially, Shatterstar is both the father AND son of Longshot. One step away from Fry being his own Grandpa!
Only you, Peter David. Only you.
Great episode guys! Looking forward to part 2,
That picture in your mind right now of him in the sewers saying it's his turn? Yup from that moment. So they became Cyborgs because Wolverine sliced them up.
Here are a few quick notes about the episode:
Bishop's M tattoo isn't actually a reference to Magneto, but because the time period he was born is actually the future of the Days of Future Past era (80-100 years in the future from the 616 present as I recall). When Bishop was born, mutants were still in camps and they were being branded with the M tattoo over their right eye for easier identification. It's why almost all the members of the XSE have the tattoos, because many of them participated in the Summers Rebellion that overthrew the Sentinels.
The mention of the third Summers brother has been considered to just be an editorial mistake, but if you read the issue when it happened, this obviously isn't true. Sinister tells Scott that he's been keeping an eye on his brothers and Scott comments on this, pointing out that Sinister said "brothers, plural." Sinister tries to brush it off as a mistake, but it's clear he meant something by it. Nicieza, who was also writing X-Force at the time, had intended on Adam X being the third "Summers" brother—the product of D'Ken raping Scott's mother when she was a prisoner of the Shi'ar. One of Nicieza's later issues involved Adam X rescuing Scott's grandfather and it was an issue that made it pretty obvious Adam was supposed to be the third Summers brother. But Brubaker just went ahead and did his own thing with Vulcan (although doesn't defeat the possibility that Adam is actually the fourth Summers brother). Also interesting postscript: in X-Men: The End, Claremont revealed that Gambit was actually the third Summers brother.
Shatterstar was indeed originally intended to be Longshot and Dazzler's son. It was a dropped plotline and the next time Dazzler appeared again, Jean said she couldn't detect the baby, so it was assumed that Dazzler had a miscarriage.
Revanche is French for revenge. If I recall correctly, she didn't go back to calling herself Kwannon because she still believed her to be the real Betsy. It wasn't until the Legacy Virus increased her telepathic powers that she was able to cut through her memories and discover the truth.
Magneto didn't go missing following Fatal Attractions, he was actually onboard Avalon in a vegetative state for a while, being cared for by the Acolytes, and in particular, Colossus. It wasn't until Holocaust came over from the AoA and he and Exodus had a massive battle that destroyed Avalon. Colossus strapped Magneto into an escape pod and from there he went missing until not long later, Joseph turned up.
It was mentioned that Maggott was evidence of Claremont's later inability to get off the stage, but Maggott actually was created by Lobdell and the character was long gone from the team and in limbo by the time Claremont returned to the books. Although Claremont gets no pass for the creation of characters like Lifeguard, Thunderbird III, and Slipstream.
Also I want to add that man, Colossus really DID get the shaft in this era. It wasn't until Warren Ellis got ahold of him in Excalibur that the character started to get some good treatment. It almost seemed like Lobdell had some sort of axe to grind against Colossus, especially given that when he had a chance to come back to the X-books for a few issues between the Claremont and Morrison runs, he took the opportunity to then kill the character.
Anyway, great episode all around. Looking forward to the next installment.
However, X-Men was problematic for me in this period, as it was the poster child for an emphasis on style with little regard to substance. In the end, X-cutioner's Song is what killed comic books as a whole for me. I held on for a little while after this, but, with Liefeld's rise and a greater emphasis on bloody, grim, vapid tales, I couldn't take it anymore.
Someone can check me on this, but my understanding was that it was up in the air for some time as to who was the clone: Stryfe or Cable. Initially, I believe, the idea was that it was supposed to actually be Cable that was the clone, but it was changed by editorial. Is that correct?
Also, I am totally with Dani on her love of the "rollerblading" issue. Even now, two decades later, I fondly remember that issue. It was like a cool glass of water in the midst of a writing and intellectual desert.
What's interesting about that issue is that, as a self-contained single issue, it is emblematic of the kind of story that is rarely told these days. I enjoy the idea of 5-6 issue story arcs, but one of the sad sacrifices it seems to have required is the death of the single-issue "between arc" stories.
Yup sounds right...definitely would have been more of a downer but I guess Editoral wanted something more light hearted.
More comments in a bit...
Essentially, Cable was an idea born from a sketch and a basic concept that The New Mutants would now be led by a militaristic man. Louise Simonson came up with the second part, and Bob Harras went to Liefeld independently and got Cable, Stryfe, and a bunch of the Mutant Liberation Front out of the first part.
Outside of the confusion over whether Cable was going to be the clone or if it was going to be Stryfe, there was debate on just who Cable was going to turn out to be. First, Cable was going to actually going to BE Stryfe in a reveal similar to Rama Tut, Kang and Immortus - Cable would turn out to simply be Stryfe before he went mad and became a villain. Then, an idea was floated that Cable could possibly be Cannonball's future self (which was covered in a later column of Comic Book Legends Revealed as well).
Finally, Jim Lee and Bob Harras decided on Cable being Nathan Christopher Summers independent from Liefeld, which Liefeld wasn't too pleased about but he eventually grew to accept it as fact. This killed the whole Cable being Stryfe thing, but also floated the clone angle. And although Liefeld wanted Cable to be the clone, that was disallowed too.
And you thought The Clone Saga was hard to explain?
*PHEW*
I got back into Capt with Brubaker's run and X-Men with All New X Men by Bendis.
I was going to issue some corrections, but Perry Constantine above hit on almost every one.
The only thing I will wag my finger at is the suggestion (made a few times during this episode) that Claremont wrote Giant-Size X-Men #1. ("With Claremont, he gave you Giant-Size X-Men #1 . . . and he also gave you Maggott." GRRR -- He gave us neither! Get it right, Claremont detractors!)
As far as Claremont is concerned, my feelings are this:
He was great, or very very good, up until X-Men #3 in 1991. And he hasn't done anything worth mentioning since then.
As much as I like Claremont, and as much as I downplay the relative greatness of the Claremont/Byrne issues (overall I DON'T think they're head and neck better than the issues with Cockrum or Paul Smith or JRJR on art), I can't bring myself to say that something like Sovereign Seven was good. It was absolutely horrible and forgettable. It makes what Byrne was doing at the time (Wonder Woman) seem like a five- or SIX-star comic. (I liked his WW okay!)
But at the same time, I don't think that Claremont had fallen off much at all during his initial X-Men run. Often this suggestion is made, but I just don't see it. When did he fall off? Was it during "Inferno"? That's often said to be one of the best crossovers ever. Was it when he was juggling a disparate set of characters? It was during that time that he created Jubilee, Gambit, and the new Psylocke, fan-favorite characters that have stood the test of time. When did Claremont fall off? The issues he did with Jim Lee are classics. X-Men #1-3 is a great story, drawing upon continuity while serving as a perfect jumping on point for hundreds of thousands of new readers.
I do think that most of Claremont's subsequent X-Men work has been bad to foregetable. X-Treme X-Men? UGH. He did do a few issues around Uncanny 464 or so that I thought were okay. And I thought X-Men Forever was PASSABLE for a little while. But I can't defend anything he's done since 1991. Up through 1991, though? Greatest run that any writer ever had on a superhero comic. Period!
As to the writers that followed Claremont -- I think Lobdell has generally been remembered as a worse writer than he was, at least initially. And I think Fabian Nicieza ALWAYS does passable work. That said, I think the franchise was basically just running off of the inertia that Claremont had given it. It felt like whatever good stuff there was between 1991 and 1993 was just a playing out of characterizations that Claremont had firmly established. Things fell apart soon after that and it didn't seem like the writers knew what to do (with the editorial constraints, probably) for years and years and years afterwards.
X-Cutioner's Song wasn't that bad! You had a big massive meeting of the X-teams, taking on baddies like Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, and (yes) Stryfe (there's a reason why I write his name last). And it was all drawn by Andy Kubert, Greg Capullo, Jae Lee, and Brandon Peterson. I'm not saying it was top-flight superheroics, but I think it had a cool set-up, and furthered plots and characterizations in a sensible way (i.e., the connections between Scott and Jean, Cable and Stryfe, Sinister and Apocalypse). I prefer it to X-Tinction Agenda and most of the other crossovers of the '90s.
One last thing. An open letter that I wish I could send back in time to 1993.
PETER DAVID GET OVER YOURSELF. You aren't writing Sandman. You aren't writing Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. You aren't writing Daredevil or Elektra. You're writing a ragtag group of mutants with an almost infinite number of ties to characters who are in other ongoing comic series. No one else complains nearly as much as you do about participating in crossovers, and your X-Factor book is NOT that much better than what other writers are doing. Yes, it's the best-written X-book. But it's not so much better that you should be exempt from crossovers as if you were writing some work of delicate genius. Dude, half your issues feature a group called "The Nasty Boys" and a character called "Slab". Besides, you should have WANTED to use these handful (ONLY FOUR!) crossover issues to further your own book. For X-Cutioner's Song you had Apocalypse and Archangel to work with: Yes, X-Factor is in a different era now, but nothing screams "X-Factor" more than Apocalypse and Archangel. So why not try to do something more with what those characters could mean to the current X-Factor team? You also got to use Jae Lee as an artist, but instead of writing to his talents, you basically just pouted and put your writing skills on cruise control. Six months later, for Fatal Attractions, your task was to write an issue in which Quicksilver (one of your core characters) was confronted by the Acolytes of his estranged/deceased father. Seems like a plot that would have made sense to tell, especially since "Magneto's Daughter" Polaris is on X-Factor as well. And you would have had Joe Quesada to illustrate. But instead of telling this story, you pouted and bailed. Yes, X-Factor #87 was a great issue. That doesn't mean you don't have a vastly overinflated sense of how important your X-Factor work is. Overall, it's good, not great. And as good of a writer as you are, you're an even better whiner.
Speaking of Psylocke, I believe it was Matsuo (Kwannon's lover) who also had a hand in the poisoning Wolverine's fiance Mariko. Wolverine took his revenge by cutting off a piece of his body every year on the anniversary of her death. I don't remember the first time it happened but years later Frank Tieri would write an issue catching us up on the whole story except that year Wolverine had died and didn't show up. (Just looked it up, it was a back up in Wolverine (1988) #175.)
Chris Yost would later pick up the threads of the story arc in the Psylocke mini series back in like 2010. Talking about Psylocke immediately made me remember the story as it's one of my favorites. I actually felt sorry for the poor bastard.
X-Treme X-Men- hey now I loved the first half of that series with Salavador Larocca...after that Igor Kordy took over and I'm pretty certain time constraints really hurt his art.
X-Tinction Agenda- killed Warlock (from the New Mutants) as well as Cameron Hodge...both of whom came back much later. And didn't Wolverine and Jean have a "moment" while they were captured in a cell together...Hell didn't something horrific happen to Rogue?
Trevor Fitzory- absorbs life force energy to open portals through time and space. It was revealed in one of Bishop's series that Fitzroy and Shard had a relationship. Actually now that I think about it Peter David picks up the plot in a time travel story in X-Factor. Layla Miller was forced to bring Fitzory back from the dead, unfortunately whoever she brings back doesn't have a soul. I'm foggy on the details but I think he was Ruby Summer's lover at the time. (All post Messiah CompleX...remember Layla got stuck in the future? Well she was part of the Summer's Rebellion. Being stuck in the future is how she grew up to become an adult who comes back in time to marry Multiple Man)
(Yes Ruby is the daughter of Cyclops and Emma).
Bishop- LOL I remember Bishop called Jubilee the last X-Man. Oh and it was Bishop who (in his time) stumbled upon a message left by Jean saying the X-Men were betrayed by one of their own before she was killed on camera. We were always led to believe it was Gambit but the whole recording Bishop sees actually plays out in X-Men: Onslaught
X-Cutioner's Song- Stryfe's Strike File was a comic of all information on the trading cards that was poly-bagged with the issues. My first event and thus a nostalgic favorite...and my first exposure to Jae Lee.
Uncanny X-Men #298 the Acoyltes attack a school of children with Downes Syndrome.
Uncanny X-Men #299 I think we learn about the Games Master and how he's an Omnipath who is keeping score for the Upstarts. Is it here he actually demerits Fabian Cortez for the death of Magneto?
X-Men #17-19 was the story of the Soul Skinner! A powerful telepath who fed off of people's despair and could mentally control people. (Like he did Omega Red) When feeding off of Cyclops he realized how similiar they were since they both lost a child. He falls further into despair since Scott coped with it better than he could. So he shuts off his own mind. This is when I realized that comics can be really deep. Oh and in one of these issues we get the 'Contraversial' fantasy scene taken from Psylocke's mind where her and Scott are face to face under the sheets.
While looking for that image I found a CBR article that has all the scenes of her tempting Cyclops...
Looking back it is kind of odd how Cyclops almost had a psychic affair with Psylocke and would later have a psychic affair with Emma.
Graydon Creed...last name sound familiar?
Mr. Sinister - I don't think the plural was a mistake since Scott calls him on it. He actually tells Sinister he said "You and your brothers". And while Apocalypse did create Sinister, Sinister sought to create the perfect mutant to kill Apocalypse because Apocalypse wanted to cull the weak. Which Sinister sees as cattle for his experiments...not to mention Apocalypse promised to kill Sinister after he betrayed him.
Uncanny X-Men #303 - Poor Jubilee...this issue broke my heart, one of my favorites. (Correction: Colossus doesn't defect until Uncanny X-Men #304)
Fatal Attractions:
X-Factor #92 - Project Wide Awake comes to light (Government's Sentinel Program...earlier referenced at the end of Days of Future Past.)
Uncanny X-Men #304 - while at Illyana's funeral Magneto appears. All the X-Men overpower Magneto and then Colossus knocks out Bishop and joins Magneto.
"Oh my stars and garters!"
"Unglaublich!"
"I'm the best there is at what I do..."
My personal favorite: "...my psychic knife, the focused totality of my telepathic powers!"
And so many others. As weird and of-its-time as that is, though, it's sort of charming in a way. It's the stories that make this such fun reading of course (even when it's stupidly over the top), but Claremont's quirks are as much a part of the overall look-and-feel of the series for me as Tom Orzechowski's lettering. The artists come and go, but without the layers and layers of Orzechowski-transcribed narration and everyone always telling you who they are and what they can do, it just doesn't feel like the X-Men to me.
Speaking of which, did you guys mention Days of Future Present in the discussion? Don't remember it, and you may not have covered it since it was confined to annuals and expanded beyond the X-titles. But that crossover poisoned the Days of Future... storylines for me for years to come.
However, my interest in the X-Men started to drop with the Siege Perilous story. Storm becoming a child thief was as bad as Tony Stark being turned into a teenager. And I never cared for Gambit. I know he's a very popular character, but he didn't click for me so I didn't care for him joining the team.
I thought the Psylocke body swap was pretty bizarre. I like the Mandarin assassin Psylocke well enough, but they could have introduced a new character for that role rather than transform Betsy. The other X-Men would eventually return to normal, but not Betsy.
I didn't care for it very much.
I was never a fan of Bishop. Or the costume changes that would happen around this time. Two of my favorites, Nightcrawler and Shadowcat were off with Excalibur, so they weren't in the X-Men comics any more. Newer villains like Stryfe and Mr. Sinister didn't grab me. I didn't think much of Cable or Jubilee and they were becoming a big part of the X-men.
So somewhere in the early 90s I stopped reading X-Men comics and I have read a rare few X-men issues since then.
I hope that there will be an X-men in the 2000s episode. I would like to hear what people think are some of the better X-Men stories in recent years. I would be interested in getting collected editions of those stories to see what I think of recent X-Men comics.
Of course, no one ever walks away cold turkey from any comic series. I did read some of the crossovers (like Bloodties), the Annuals... I tried reading it when the New X-Men title drawn by Jim Lee started, but dropped it after a few issues. I went back for Legion Quest, read the Onslaught issues (since they impacted the other titles that I was reading)... I did invest in the Age Of Apocalypse series, which I thought was done very, very well -- in fact, since I was working at Diamond at the time, I was able to snag a set of the gold cover trades.
While I didn't follow much of the X-books otherwise, I did find the podcast to be very informative on the things I missed, and helped explain a few things that had me puzzled whenever I had picked up a stray issue or two. Nice job, everybody.
I know there was fan speculation that Gambit was the third Summers brother given his ties to Sinister, his shady past, and the fact that he was adopted. I remember Wizard once did a feature on the dangling plotlines in the X-books and their theory was that it was Gambit, and this was what Claremont did in The End.
But way back in the halcyon days of the AOL message boards, I was a frequent poster on the Gambit message boards, as was Fabian Nicieza (who wrote the solo Gambit title at the time). I do remember him being asked about the third Summers brother and he said he intended for it to be X-Treme. When you look back on X-Treme's appearance in a Nicieza-penned issue of X-Men when both X-Treme and Cyclops' grandfather were stuck in a snowstorm, it's very clear this was the intention. If anything, any Gambit connection was either a red herring on Nicieza's part, or just simply fan speculation.