TIL (Today I Learned)

SolitaireRose

One of the cooler things on Reddit is a section called TIL, Today I Learned. I thought I'd bring it here, since we could be a lot more comic specific...

I read the INCREDIBLE "Secret History of Marvel Comics" by Blake Bell and Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. They get into a lot of the pulp and paperback publications of Martin Goodman, and the book is filled with illustrations for those magazines by comics artists, as well as a solid history. Most of which I knew from reading Doc V on various discussion lists...

But the one thing that I learned is that Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby BOTH left Marvel for the same reason, and it wasn't Stan Lee hogging credit or any of the other theories.

Goodman promised both of them royalties on characters they created. Not on the comics, but when their art was used on the new merchandise like shirts, pillows, posters and TV shows. Ditko was having his art used on the Marvel cartoons and in merchandise and when Goodman let him know that he had changed his mind, he walked. Kirby, however, was both more complicated and waited longer. He wanted royalties for CHARACTERS as well as art, and going into the first Captain America trial, Goodman said if he testified against Joe Simon, he'd get a better deal in his next contract. Kirby did, Goodman reneged, and Kirby went to DC at the end of that contract.

WetRats

Martin Goodman's one of those folks who make me wish there was a Hell.

SolitaireRose

WetRats said:

Martin Goodman's one of those folks who make me wish there was a Hell.

He was just another scam artist in an industry of scam artists. He was hauled before the court three separate times for recycling stories in his pulp magazines without labeling them reprints OR paying the writers. Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson who founded National (which became DC) was just as big a scam artist, as was Victor Fox. Pulp publishers were, for the most part, guys who would have been selling fake deeds to gold claims 50 years previous.

WetRats

SolitaireRose said:

WetRats said:

Martin Goodman's one of those folks who make me wish there was a Hell.

He was just another scam artist in an industry of scam artists. He was hauled before the court three separate times for recycling stories in his pulp magazines without labeling them reprints OR paying the writers. Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson who founded National (which became DC) was just as big a scam artist, as was Victor Fox. Pulp publishers were, for the most part, guys who would have been selling fake deeds to gold claims 50 years previous.

Too true, too true.

Peter

I was going to post this on my own site but skipped over it. An interesting discussion on the first Dell Comics comic, the 85th anniversary (as of Jan.16th) of the first tabloid newspaper comic collection with original material and a look at what is the "first" comic book:

http://dellcomicfan.blogspot.com/2011/09/03-what-was-first-dell-comic.html

TheOriginalGMan

I'll have to pick that up. You may also find Sean Howe's "Marvel Comics: The Untold Story" interesting as well. Personally couldn't put it down. Great read.

rebis

Peter said:

I was going to post this on my own site but skipped over it. An interesting discussion on the first Dell Comics comic, the 85th anniversary (as of Jan.16th) of the first tabloid newspaper comic collection with original material and a look at what is the "first" comic book:

http://dellcomicfan.blogspot.com/2011/09/03-what-was-first-dell-comic.html

That just makes me wish that all the rumors about a 2nd round of "Wednesday's Comics" had happened.

Whirlwind

Marvel Comics: The Untold Story is on audiobook, too. I listened to it back and forth from work for a while, and it was gripping. It brought back all of those stories I read through the years, just from a different angle, and with all of the business and personal stories going on in the background. Highly recommended.

TheOriginalGMan

The CGS podcast with Sean Howe is a must read listen too btw

RickM

Sean Howe's book is excellent. How long ago was the CGS episode with him?

TheOriginalGMan

Rick:

It's the October 22, 2012 podcast. Here's a link ...

http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes/comic_geek_speak-1596.php

SolitaireRose

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

SolitaireRose

Today I learned that the 1978 Silver Surfer graphic novel was copyright Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, with the Surfer and Galactus copyright Marvel.

Probably because it was through a book publisher and not Marvel. Still...odd and wonderful, in a way.

WetRats

SolitaireRose said:

Today I learned that the 1978 Silver Surfer graphic novel was copyright Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, with the Surfer and Galactus copyright Marvel.

Probably because it was through a book publisher and not Marvel. Still...odd and wonderful, in a way.

So how many times has it been reprinted?

nweathington

WetRats said:

SolitaireRose said:

Today I learned that the 1978 Silver Surfer graphic novel was copyright Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, with the Surfer and Galactus copyright Marvel.

Probably because it was through a book publisher and not Marvel. Still...odd and wonderful, in a way.

So how many times has it been reprinted?

I'm pretty sure Fireside only did one printing of the book. I got mine in 1984, 1985... somewhere in there, when a local bookstore was going out of business (it was only $2!), and there is no indication inside that it is anything other than a first printing (though it doesn’t say “first printing,” it still has the original $4.95 price, and it has only the 1978 copyright date).

Marvel did a reprint back around 1997, I think.

WetRats

nweathington said:

WetRats said:

SolitaireRose said:

Today I learned that the 1978 Silver Surfer graphic novel was copyright Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, with the Surfer and Galactus copyright Marvel.

Probably because it was through a book publisher and not Marvel. Still...odd and wonderful, in a way.

So how many times has it been reprinted?

I'm pretty sure Fireside only did one printing of the book. I got mine in 1984, 1985... somewhere in there, when a local bookstore was going out of business (it was only $2!), and there is no indication inside that it is anything other than a first printing (though it doesn’t say “first printing,” it still has the original $4.95 price, and it has only the 1978 copyright date).

Marvel did a reprint back around 1997, I think.

Did the Marvel reprint still copyright Lee & Kirby?

Planeis

At one point in 1955 and Back to the Future Part 2 There are Four Deloreans

TIL

TheOriginalGMan

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

SolitaireRose

TheOriginalGMan said:

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

It's funny, people keep asking Roy to to write a book or sit down for a series of long interviews about his time at Marvel, and he demurs, claiming it's all be written up before. When he passes, a HUGE hunk of Marvel history will be gone, since Stan's memory is notoriously terrible.

TheOriginalGMan

Just downloaded the CGS interview with Roy Thomas from way back when discussing Captain America. Can't wait to give it a listen! :-/

TheOriginalGMan

Not sure why that smiley guy is there btw. LOL!

nweathington

SolitaireRose said:

TheOriginalGMan said:

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

It's funny, people keep asking Roy to to write a book or sit down for a series of long interviews about his time at Marvel, and he demurs, claiming it's all be written up before. When he passes, a HUGE hunk of Marvel history will be gone, since Stan's memory is notoriously terrible.

Well, Roy’s mostly right in that he’s talked about pretty much everything (except for all the juicy stuff he’s never going to go on record about). The problem is that it’s scattered all over the place (though a huge chunk of it has been printed in Alter Ego).

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

WetRats

nweathington said:

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

Stan "Dr. Faustus" Lee?

Torchsong

WetRats said:

nweathington said:

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

Stan "Dr. Faustus" Lee?

And you thought Mephistopheles was a Marvel character just because?!? :)

SolitaireRose

nweathington said:

SolitaireRose said:

TheOriginalGMan said:

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

It's funny, people keep asking Roy to to write a book or sit down for a series of long interviews about his time at Marvel, and he demurs, claiming it's all be written up before. When he passes, a HUGE hunk of Marvel history will be gone, since Stan's memory is notoriously terrible.

Well, Roy’s mostly right in that he’s talked about pretty much everything (except for all the juicy stuff he’s never going to go on record about). The problem is that it’s scattered all over the place (though a huge chunk of it has been printed in Alter Ego).

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

After reading his "autobiography" and the corrections from Doc V, I believe that his memory is pretty bad. He routinely gets things out of order, gets years and information wrong and such. He did a recording for some odd book project where he would have a bunch of short anecdotes that would play on specific pages, and he asked that they bring in Roy Thomas to help him with the memories, and Roy said that there were a lot of things that Stan just didn't remember.

Reading about how Timely/Atlas was run, it doesn't surprise me that Stan doesn't remember a lot of that stuff well. He was running a company publishing tons of comics, writing them at home, and working 12 and 14 hour days routinely. There are years in my past when I was doing that, and I don't remember much of anything other than that I was working all the time. I run into people I supervised from 2001-2006, and it takes a LOT of prompts to remember them.

nweathington

SolitaireRose said:

nweathington said:

SolitaireRose said:

TheOriginalGMan said:

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

It's funny, people keep asking Roy to to write a book or sit down for a series of long interviews about his time at Marvel, and he demurs, claiming it's all be written up before. When he passes, a HUGE hunk of Marvel history will be gone, since Stan's memory is notoriously terrible.

Well, Roy’s mostly right in that he’s talked about pretty much everything (except for all the juicy stuff he’s never going to go on record about). The problem is that it’s scattered all over the place (though a huge chunk of it has been printed in Alter Ego).

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

After reading his "autobiography" and the corrections from Doc V, I believe that his memory is pretty bad. He routinely gets things out of order, gets years and information wrong and such. He did a recording for some odd book project where he would have a bunch of short anecdotes that would play on specific pages, and he asked that they bring in Roy Thomas to help him with the memories, and Roy said that there were a lot of things that Stan just didn't remember.

Reading about how Timely/Atlas was run, it doesn't surprise me that Stan doesn't remember a lot of that stuff well. He was running a company publishing tons of comics, writing them at home, and working 12 and 14 hour days routinely. There are years in my past when I was doing that, and I don't remember much of anything other than that I was working all the time. I run into people I supervised from 2001-2006, and it takes a LOT of prompts to remember them.

That’s what I mean by the day-to-day stuff. I’m sure he doesn’t remember sitting down to write most of the scripts, or who was in the office on any given day, or that kind of thing. I’m talking about some of the bigger issues—the events of a more interpersonal nature.

I didn’t even bother reading the autobiography.

WetRats

nweathington said:

I didn’t even bother reading the autobiography.

Your credibility is shot.

:-O

nweathington

WetRats said:

nweathington said:

I didn’t even bother reading the autobiography.

Your credibility is shot.

:-O

Obviously you haven’t read it either then. :D

SolitaireRose

nweathington said:

SolitaireRose said:

nweathington said:

SolitaireRose said:

TheOriginalGMan said:

SolitaireRose said:

Roy Thomas has issued some corrections to the book here and here.

Wow, thanks for the links! Fascinating behind the scenes stuff from Roy Thomas.

It's funny, people keep asking Roy to to write a book or sit down for a series of long interviews about his time at Marvel, and he demurs, claiming it's all be written up before. When he passes, a HUGE hunk of Marvel history will be gone, since Stan's memory is notoriously terrible.

Well, Roy’s mostly right in that he’s talked about pretty much everything (except for all the juicy stuff he’s never going to go on record about). The problem is that it’s scattered all over the place (though a huge chunk of it has been printed in Alter Ego).

And I don’t think Stan’s memory is quite as terrible as he makes it out to be, at least when it comes to certain areas. Day to day stuff, sure, but I think there are just some things he doesn’t want to talk about.

After reading his "autobiography" and the corrections from Doc V, I believe that his memory is pretty bad. He routinely gets things out of order, gets years and information wrong and such. He did a recording for some odd book project where he would have a bunch of short anecdotes that would play on specific pages, and he asked that they bring in Roy Thomas to help him with the memories, and Roy said that there were a lot of things that Stan just didn't remember.

Reading about how Timely/Atlas was run, it doesn't surprise me that Stan doesn't remember a lot of that stuff well. He was running a company publishing tons of comics, writing them at home, and working 12 and 14 hour days routinely. There are years in my past when I was doing that, and I don't remember much of anything other than that I was working all the time. I run into people I supervised from 2001-2006, and it takes a LOT of prompts to remember them.

That’s what I mean by the day-to-day stuff. I’m sure he doesn’t remember sitting down to write most of the scripts, or who was in the office on any given day, or that kind of thing. I’m talking about some of the bigger issues—the events of a more interpersonal nature.

I didn’t even bother reading the autobiography.

I did. It was a nice puff piece with a bunch of anecdotes. I wished he would have told a few more stories about his personal life since I have heard the stories he's told quite a few times. I swear he repeats the "Golf game that led to the FF" story more times than I've seen Star Wars, and it's pretty clear that NO ONE at DC would have shared anything with Martin Goodman for fear the slime would rub off on them.

WetRats

nweathington said:

WetRats said:

nweathington said:

I didn’t even bother reading the autobiography.

Your credibility is shot.

:-O

Obviously you haven’t read it either then. :D

That's what I count on you for!

SolitaireRose

TIL: George Bell (Early Marvel inker) was the pen name of George Roussos when he inked. Roussos was one of the EC horror artists and also was the Marvel in-house colorist from the mid 70's until the 80's. There are VERY few of the EC artists who also worked at Silver Age Marvel, so it's pretty amazing to me.