First off, let’s be clear, the publishers don’t require customers to order three months ahead of time. They require the comic shop retailers to order three months ahead of time.
Your clarification doesn't change anything we said. It boils down to a strange situation, unique to comics, where a customer searching for Black Widow #1 is told by Comic Book Guy that "you should have pre-ordered it 90 days ago." And I don't see how your lengthy explanation of the entire distribution process, which basically amounts to the dubious conclusion that "sorry, comics can't do it any other way," soothes the frustrations of a customer.
Re: the distribution problem, we do all remember why comics left the newsstands and spinner racks to begin with, right? It was because they didn’t generate enough profit per square foot of display space.
First off, let’s be clear, the publishers don’t require customers to order three months ahead of time. They require the comic shop retailers to order three months ahead of time. I’ve posted multiple times on this board about why it’s more advantageous for the shops if they can get their customers to place advance orders, and I think you all probably know the reasons, but when you boil it down it’s because the comics they order are non-returnable, and the more accurate the store’s orders are, the less likely they’ll blow their profit by over-ordering.
Just for comparison, traditional book stores are required to place their orders quarterly rather than monthly, and are ordering six to eight months ahead of time. But book stores don’t ask their customers to pre-order. They don’t have to. They can order as many copies as the want, and if they over-order, they can just send back what they didn't sell. Book publishers can afford to over-print because they're selling a higher ticket price item. And a lot of their books still lose money. The bestsellers make enough to cover for the riskier publishing endeavors.
EVERY OTHER form of entertainment is working overtime to be comes available on demand. TV has changed in that if you miss a show, it’s on demand within hours, on DVD within months, and then available on a streaming service soon after that. I can click a button and have and electronic book in seconds, or at my front door in two days. When the new max Allen Collins novel came out, I went to the book store and bought it. I didn’t have to pre-order it, even though it’s genre mystery, and if I would have had to order and pre-paid for it, I would probably have just said “I’ll get it at the library.” Same with DVD…in fact, if I have to pre-buy a ticket to a movie, I generally don’t go because I don’t want to pay DAYS IN ADVANCE. Going to the movies can be a spur of the moment decision. Most disposable income entertainment choices should be like that. The harder it is to get something, the fewer people are going to jump through the hoops to get it.
The reason you can just walk out and buy that DVD is that there are a lot more people buying DVDs (though that market too is shrinking with the rise of Netflix, et al) and watching TV than there are buying comics. If you print 10,000 too many copies of a DVD, it’s probably not going to be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. If you print 10,000 too many copies of a comic book, unless you're talking about the top twenty or so titles, that's going to have a significant impact on your profit.
So why not get more comics in more traditional stores—bookstores, Wal-Marts, etc.? Oh yeah, retailers don't want to stock them heavily because they don't make them enough profit per square foot of display space.
Why bother buying issue #3 of something you see when you can't possibly get issue #1 and #2? Why buy an issue #1 when you can't get issue #2 next month (too late! you didn't preorder!) unless you happen to get to the store right when it opens so you can grab the 1 copy that's on the shelf?
Why bother watching the third episode of the hot new TV show when you missed the first two episodes and the DVD set won't be out for another eight months and you won't see a rerun for at least two months? Well, now you can probably go online and find those first two episodes on Netflix or Hulu or YouTube (the legal official channel’s posting only, of course). And you can also go online and find those first two issues of the comic on ComiXology.
Now you may be thinking that I'm going to join the chorus singing the praises of print on demand. I'm not. Read my next post. This post is getting a bit too long.
What a great post. Very well put. I think it was said on the episode as well - that pre-ordering doesn't have to mean giving money or going online. Just simply ASKING a retailer to add your name to a title goes a long way. No doubt the direct market is skewed and bent. But it is what it is for now, and I look forward to the changing landscape that digital will provide!
First off, let’s be clear, the publishers don’t require customers to order three months ahead of time. They require the comic shop retailers to order three months ahead of time.
Your clarification doesn't change anything we said. It boils down to a strange situation, unique to comics, where a customer searching for Black Widow #1 is told by Comic Book Guy that "you should have pre-ordered it 90 days ago." And I don't see how your lengthy explanation of the entire distribution process, which basically amounts to the dubious conclusion that "sorry, comics can't do it any other way," soothes the frustrations of a customer.
My explanation wasn’t meant to soothe anyone’s frustrations. A few comments seemed to imply that print-on-demand would be an easy fix to all our woes, when I simply don't see that to be the case. I never said comics can’t do it any other way, just that PoD is not the answer—unless you want to pay a lot more for your comics, that is.
Comics are already starting to do it another way—digital comics. Look, I spend all day on the computer, and the last thing I want to do at the end of the day is read my comics on a computer screen, but if you have to read Black Widow #1, and you can’t wait three or four weeks for that second printing to hit the stands, all you have to do is pop over to ComiXology and in less than a minute you can start reading it. (Or as in my case, your store ordered plenty of extra copies and you can walk in and buy it same day of release without having pre-ordered it.)
But, hey, if somebody wants to explain to me how PoD really could work financially and logistically, I'm all ears.
The reason you can just walk out and buy that DVD is that there are a lot more people buying DVDs (though that market too is shrinking with the rise of Netflix, et al) and watching TV than there are buying comics. If you print 10,000 too many copies of a DVD, it’s probably not going to be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. If you print 10,000 too many copies of a comic book, unless you're talking about the top twenty or so titles, that's going to have a significant impact on your profit.
I respectfully disagree. It is because the retail partners of DVD makers have demanded returnability in many cases. Target doesn’t get stuck with 300 extra copies of “Transmorphers 4, Transmorphin’ Again” because they have in their sales agreement that they will keep movies on sale for a specific amount of time, they will get co-op reimbursement for putting that movie in their newspaper ads and at the end of that movie’s sales life, they are sent back to the distributor who disposes of them accordingly through the remainder process. Some get snapped up by on-line retailers are cheap prices, some are repackaged and sent out again in a new way “Get all 4 Transmorphers movies for a low price!” and some are sold to low end retailers for their bargain bins.
And DVDs of obscure movies or high end DVDs probably sell about 10,000 – 20,000 copies, and they don’t really sell them through retail, they sell them through their own website and Amazon (which is the 800 lb gorilla we aren’t talking about in this discussion, but really needs to be brought in at some point.
In comics, the retailer carries ALL of the burden. All. Of. It. This was a great deal for everyone involved when comics were a buck or less, there was a back issue market and there were very few options to get a comic book. Now, if I don’t feel like driving to the store, I pop open the Marvel App on my tablet, click a button and get the comic. Done. I don’t NEED back issues to read a story as they have trade paperbacks and the marvel Unlimited app. Comixology sells old comics for cover price FOREVER!
Mr Phil is talking, rightly, about print on demand, but there are price barriers to that as far as I know. I’ve become a digital convert in the last couple of years (except for double page spreads, when do NOT translate well)…but the issue, to my mind, is that the relationship between comics retail and comics distribution is broken. It will HAVE to change, but like all things in American business, it won’t change until it has hit a crisis point.
I can't really go with the DVD comparison because, even if a DVD has a low sell number, they potentially could be in far more stores percentage wise than comics can be in comic shops. So the comparison is skewed. Of course stores that sell DVDs have more leverage - there are thousands and thousands of them. Targets and Walmarts alone. But how many comic shops are there? Doesn't feel like comic stores have any leverage in the matter.
So yes - it goes back to distribution and such - and now that publishers can sell through Comixology and online for themselves, there's no reason to try and court comic shops. Publishers don't need them that much anymore. Kinda harsh to say but as someone who does about 80% of his comic shopping online, that remaining 20% could easily be substituted online.
Comics is built around an insular, geeky, unique subculture. No way do the publishers want to turn their backs on the shops that have served as the locus of that culture. When I wasn't sure about Manifest Destiny, the store clerk assured me it was awesome, and I bought it. How valuable are these one-to-one, in-person recommendations from fellow geeks to the publishers? I think quite a bit.
In comics, the retailer carries ALL of the burden. All. Of. It. This was a great deal for everyone involved when comics were a buck or less, there was a back issue market and there were very few options to get a comic book. Now, if I don’t feel like driving to the store, I pop open the Marvel App on my tablet, click a button and get the comic. Done. I don’t NEED back issues to read a story as they have trade paperbacks and the marvel Unlimited app. Comixology sells old comics for cover price FOREVER!
Mr Phil is talking, rightly, about print on demand, but there are price barriers to that as far as I know. I’ve become a digital convert in the last couple of years (except for double page spreads, when do NOT translate well)…but the issue, to my mind, is that the relationship between comics retail and comics distribution is broken. It will HAVE to change, but like all things in American business, it won’t change until it has hit a crisis point.
Yes, the retailers carry the burden, but that was concession Phil Seuling gave the publishers when he used the deeper discounts he received in exchange in order to establish and grow the direct market. Once you give something away, it’s very difficult to get it back. Retailers should have organized back in the early ’90s and negotiated a return to returnability and smaller discounts. But the money was rolling in, so they let things stand. Though, I don't know if they could have made it happen even if they had organized.
I've wondered for many years what would happen if comic shops were able to return product. Would the retailers, so many of whom stock only Big Two titles, be more willing to try indie books? Or would it end up hurting many of the smaller publishers and beginning creators by artificially inflating their print runs beyond what their sales could support? Would it make DC and Marvel more or less willing to experiment? I do think it would keep a lot more of the dross out of the Previews catalog. But I don't think we'll ever find out the answers to those questions. I think by the time we get to that crisis point, publishers will be positioned to go all-in with digital.
Forcing customers to order in advance is anti-customer. No industry in the world can get away with that.
This has absolutely driven out casual fans. Why bother buying issue #3 of something you see when you can't possibly get issue #1 and #2? Why buy an issue #1 when you can't get issue #2 next month (too late! you didn't preorder!) unless you happen to get to the store right when it opens so you can grab the 1 copy that's on the shelf?
The entire industry is so anti-customer that I can't understand why it's not the only thing we are talking about.
It's great that digital is opening the doors to more casual fans but it shouldn't be exclusively digital. There's nothing stopping DC and Marvel from making their entire catalog available as on-demand printing right now. Nothing but croney agreements.
Comics is built around an insular, geeky, unique subculture. No way do the publishers want to turn their backs on the shops that have served as the locus of that culture. When I wasn't sure about Manifest Destiny, the store clerk assured me it was awesome, and I bought it. How valuable are these one-to-one, in-person recommendations from fellow geeks to the publishers? I think quite a bit.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that publishers want to entirely cut out the LCS. Rather, their strategy seems to be to do business with the shops AND to pursue the digital audience. Because they are likely, largely, two very different audiences (albeit with some crossover by those of us superfans who buy print from the shop AND buy some digital comics). And, they actually DON'T have to make a binary choice and pick a winner when it comes to their content. It is their content. They can sell to the shops to sell to the Wednesday readers AND have digital partners and platforms at the same time. I can't think of any content business that chooses to narrow themselves to one platform when they can sell several ways at the same time.
As for the casual fan, they are not a monolith, so I don't want to generalize that all casual fans are the same, but how likely is it that what a casual fan is looking for is a periodical print issue that they would have had to order in advance because it is not on hand in the shop? That would suppose that they would have had to hear about a comic (because it is not in front of them in the shop) but that the retailer has not ordered any copies for the shelves, so it is not at the shop when they get there. Now, sure, every shop is different and keeping shelf books around is a risk. But how often do we imagine a casual fan goes into a shop for a specific issue and it is not there because of the challenges of preordering?
And do we really imagine a shop (that is still in business to exist) would say to this casual fan they've never met, "This is your fault-- you should have ordered this two months ago before the FOC date" as opposed to:
"Sorry. That one sold out but we've got more coming in next week." OR
"You like Black WIdow? Cool. I've got this trade right here..." (and shows a trade of a prior series. Or of, say, Avengers Assemble where she is front and center)
And, sure, that casual fan might say, "No. I wanted Marvel NOW! Black Widow #1 by Edmondson and Phil Noto!" But, then at that point they aren't really a casual fan, are they?
I think the reality is that characters (e.g. 'I want to read Joker book') and standalone titles ('I want to read Walking Dead. I want to read Watchmen. I want to read Diary of a Wimpy Kid.') have been the sort of thing that have appealed to the casual fan. And any shop with sense are going to have trades and books on hand of the sorts of things a casual reader might be aware of.
And as for the future of the casual reader? I think that is going to be a reader on a device, not one custom ordering print of demand books. Like casual gaming on your phone, I think the key qualities of the casual reader are impulse and convenience. And the world of Comixology or Marvel Unlimited on your device is positioned to be right there waiting to cash in on that impulse.
Apologies for not having read the back and forth so far, but wanted to throw my $.02 in on the episode in general.
To Brian/Pants: It has been great to have you back on the show. As a listener of CGS since 2008, I was saddened to hear you say on this episode that you feel that you've said all that you have to say on comics. I have come to really appreciate your opinions on all things comics, and have really enjoyed being able to hear your transition from a strictly DC guy to a strictly Marvel guy. I think you still have a ton more to say about comics, and in fact, I think theres a ton that you choose not to say (i.e. frustrations about DC's directions, etc.). Bottom line, really glad to have you back.
To Peter Rios: We've chatted back and forth on Twitter, but it's been great to have you back on the show, too. Your thoughtful, and well-thought out, opinions have made me think differently on topics that maybe I've disagreed with you on. As the co-founder of CGS, even if you only show up once a month, I think it's meaningful to the listeners.
To Chris: Absolutely the best added voice to CGS in a REALLY long time. I look forward to every episode you're on. I've been to several Wild Pig shows (the hotel ones), and I miss them as much as I miss going to Cons. I may live in Boston, but if I were in NJ - Wild Pig would be my store of choice, no doubt. I love the perspective you bring of a real small business owner dealing in the comics industry. You add an amazing, invaluable, piece that makes CGS stand apart even more than they ever have. Thank you for giving up your time.
To Adam/Shane/and Matt: Thank you all for soldiering on after the loss of Jamie D. Thank you, too, for giving up your time to entertain the CGS faithful. Jamie is looking down smiling on you and whole crew.
Thanks to all of you for all that you do. You make my commutes SO much better!
P.S.: If you ever decide to have another CGS/Wild Pig Super Show, that would be amazing! Some of the best shows I've ever been to. :)
i used to hold out for 50% off TPB or 99 cent comics at my LCBS or conventions...
but the convenience of being able to read a comic book on my phone or tablet... ANYTIME of the day and ANYWHERE i am... CANNOT BE BEAT! i read it on the toilet at work, i read it the few minutes before bed, i read while i wait for things...
and no longer having to organize and store my collection is another huge plus!
i have kids... i'm running out of room at home... i'm low on time... having the time to read a comic book is a luxury... and the digital platform gives me the chance to still read comics given all the restrictions that people have nowadays on time and money and space...
it's odd to expect that a modern or younger consumer would want to have to organize 10,000+ comics books in alphabetical order and dig thru their garage to find that favorite story when they have a sudden urge of reading their collection of the Mutant Massacre while waiting for the bus to show up...
i have not embraced the Marvel Unlimited platform yet... because it is limited to just Marvel and i like to imagine that i "own" the copies that i buy from comixology... if comixology introduces an Unlimited platform... i will most likely adopt it... because then i can read DC and Image books as well! Maybe Amazon is already working on cutting those deals with the Big 3... i will be quite excited when that happens! $9.99 a month for unlimited comic books? i don't think you can come close to matching that deal thru physical comics...
Another interesting episode! Nice to hear about Peter's and Pants renewed committed! And as echoed above, thanks go to Adam and Shane for their continued commitment. And it's always a pleasure to hear Chris WP's opinion's as the newbie. :-) I'm just playing a wait-and-see game with how comics are going. I'm still making my (definitely less volume) DCBS orders and I'm not buying much digitally. However, my little apartment is getting SO FULL of comics and I'll probably end up giving some away to my comic shop owner friend in Kobe. So, maybe it's time for me to consider digital, though I do have an iPad and to tell the truth I can't say I really enjoy reading the "free" digital copies I can get with some of the Marvel comics. As for the changing of main characters to minorities (people of color, women, etc.), I don't mind a bit of change. It makes things more interesting. Thor to a frog? No problem. Peter Parker Spidey to Doc Ock Spidey? Enjoyed it. The Atom is Chinese? Cool! I just like them to try such things and see how it works out.
It's been brought up earlier in the thread, but on demand is the answer and Marvel has a head start with its Unlimited program. This is how our kids or kids kids will read comics. A monthly charge for access to the publishing library and a slightly larger charge if you wanna be day/date.
Comments
Comics are already starting to do it another way—digital comics. Look, I spend all day on the computer, and the last thing I want to do at the end of the day is read my comics on a computer screen, but if you have to read Black Widow #1, and you can’t wait three or four weeks for that second printing to hit the stands, all you have to do is pop over to ComiXology and in less than a minute you can start reading it. (Or as in my case, your store ordered plenty of extra copies and you can walk in and buy it same day of release without having pre-ordered it.)
But, hey, if somebody wants to explain to me how PoD really could work financially and logistically, I'm all ears.
And DVDs of obscure movies or high end DVDs probably sell about 10,000 – 20,000 copies, and they don’t really sell them through retail, they sell them through their own website and Amazon (which is the 800 lb gorilla we aren’t talking about in this discussion, but really needs to be brought in at some point.
In comics, the retailer carries ALL of the burden. All. Of. It. This was a great deal for everyone involved when comics were a buck or less, there was a back issue market and there were very few options to get a comic book. Now, if I don’t feel like driving to the store, I pop open the Marvel App on my tablet, click a button and get the comic. Done. I don’t NEED back issues to read a story as they have trade paperbacks and the marvel Unlimited app. Comixology sells old comics for cover price FOREVER!
Mr Phil is talking, rightly, about print on demand, but there are price barriers to that as far as I know. I’ve become a digital convert in the last couple of years (except for double page spreads, when do NOT translate well)…but the issue, to my mind, is that the relationship between comics retail and comics distribution is broken. It will HAVE to change, but like all things in American business, it won’t change until it has hit a crisis point.
I can't really go with the DVD comparison because, even if a DVD has a low sell number, they potentially could be in far more stores percentage wise than comics can be in comic shops. So the comparison is skewed. Of course stores that sell DVDs have more leverage - there are thousands and thousands of them. Targets and Walmarts alone. But how many comic shops are there? Doesn't feel like comic stores have any leverage in the matter.
So yes - it goes back to distribution and such - and now that publishers can sell through Comixology and online for themselves, there's no reason to try and court comic shops. Publishers don't need them that much anymore. Kinda harsh to say but as someone who does about 80% of his comic shopping online, that remaining 20% could easily be substituted online.
I've wondered for many years what would happen if comic shops were able to return product. Would the retailers, so many of whom stock only Big Two titles, be more willing to try indie books? Or would it end up hurting many of the smaller publishers and beginning creators by artificially inflating their print runs beyond what their sales could support? Would it make DC and Marvel more or less willing to experiment? I do think it would keep a lot more of the dross out of the Previews catalog. But I don't think we'll ever find out the answers to those questions. I think by the time we get to that crisis point, publishers will be positioned to go all-in with digital.
As for the casual fan, they are not a monolith, so I don't want to generalize that all casual fans are the same, but how likely is it that what a casual fan is looking for is a periodical print issue that they would have had to order in advance because it is not on hand in the shop? That would suppose that they would have had to hear about a comic (because it is not in front of them in the shop) but that the retailer has not ordered any copies for the shelves, so it is not at the shop when they get there. Now, sure, every shop is different and keeping shelf books around is a risk. But how often do we imagine a casual fan goes into a shop for a specific issue and it is not there because of the challenges of preordering?
And do we really imagine a shop (that is still in business to exist) would say to this casual fan they've never met, "This is your fault-- you should have ordered this two months ago before the FOC date" as opposed to:
"Sorry. That one sold out but we've got more coming in next week." OR
"You like Black WIdow? Cool. I've got this trade right here..." (and shows a trade of a prior series. Or of, say, Avengers Assemble where she is front and center)
And, sure, that casual fan might say, "No. I wanted Marvel NOW! Black Widow #1 by Edmondson and Phil Noto!" But, then at that point they aren't really a casual fan, are they?
I think the reality is that characters (e.g. 'I want to read Joker book') and standalone titles ('I want to read Walking Dead. I want to read Watchmen. I want to read Diary of a Wimpy Kid.') have been the sort of thing that have appealed to the casual fan. And any shop with sense are going to have trades and books on hand of the sorts of things a casual reader might be aware of.
And as for the future of the casual reader? I think that is going to be a reader on a device, not one custom ordering print of demand books. Like casual gaming on your phone, I think the key qualities of the casual reader are impulse and convenience. And the world of Comixology or Marvel Unlimited on your device is positioned to be right there waiting to cash in on that impulse.
Best,
Chris, WP
To Brian/Pants: It has been great to have you back on the show. As a listener of CGS since 2008, I was saddened to hear you say on this episode that you feel that you've said all that you have to say on comics. I have come to really appreciate your opinions on all things comics, and have really enjoyed being able to hear your transition from a strictly DC guy to a strictly Marvel guy. I think you still have a ton more to say about comics, and in fact, I think theres a ton that you choose not to say (i.e. frustrations about DC's directions, etc.). Bottom line, really glad to have you back.
To Peter Rios: We've chatted back and forth on Twitter, but it's been great to have you back on the show, too. Your thoughtful, and well-thought out, opinions have made me think differently on topics that maybe I've disagreed with you on. As the co-founder of CGS, even if you only show up once a month, I think it's meaningful to the listeners.
To Chris: Absolutely the best added voice to CGS in a REALLY long time. I look forward to every episode you're on. I've been to several Wild Pig shows (the hotel ones), and I miss them as much as I miss going to Cons. I may live in Boston, but if I were in NJ - Wild Pig would be my store of choice, no doubt. I love the perspective you bring of a real small business owner dealing in the comics industry. You add an amazing, invaluable, piece that makes CGS stand apart even more than they ever have. Thank you for giving up your time.
To Adam/Shane/and Matt: Thank you all for soldiering on after the loss of Jamie D. Thank you, too, for giving up your time to entertain the CGS faithful. Jamie is looking down smiling on you and whole crew.
Thanks to all of you for all that you do. You make my commutes SO much better!
P.S.: If you ever decide to have another CGS/Wild Pig Super Show, that would be amazing! Some of the best shows I've ever been to. :)
i used to hold out for 50% off TPB or 99 cent comics at my LCBS or conventions...
but the convenience of being able to read a comic book on my phone or tablet... ANYTIME of the day and ANYWHERE i am... CANNOT BE BEAT! i read it on the toilet at work, i read it the few minutes before bed, i read while i wait for things...
and no longer having to organize and store my collection is another huge plus!
i have kids... i'm running out of room at home... i'm low on time... having the time to read a comic book is a luxury... and the digital platform gives me the chance to still read comics given all the restrictions that people have nowadays on time and money and space...
it's odd to expect that a modern or younger consumer would want to have to organize 10,000+ comics books in alphabetical order and dig thru their garage to find that favorite story when they have a sudden urge of reading their collection of the Mutant Massacre while waiting for the bus to show up...
i have not embraced the Marvel Unlimited platform yet... because it is limited to just Marvel and i like to imagine that i "own" the copies that i buy from comixology... if comixology introduces an Unlimited platform... i will most likely adopt it... because then i can read DC and Image books as well! Maybe Amazon is already working on cutting those deals with the Big 3... i will be quite excited when that happens! $9.99 a month for unlimited comic books? i don't think you can come close to matching that deal thru physical comics...