Vertigo Revamp Rumors

shaneb

There has been some info that Vertigo is going to be doing a big revamp in 2015, but I havn't seen much else in the way of info. Does anyone out there know more?

David_D

I haven't heard about this. I'd be happy for them to give that a try. It wasn't long ago that I was buying a lot of Vertigo. And while there are some recent minis that I still plan on getting and reading someday (Spaceman, Trillium, Punk Rock Jesus), there is just not a lot of urgency anymore for me to be on top of what Vertigo is doing month to month.

It feels like Didio, Johns and Lee have decided that the DCU toys are no longer to be shared, so we no longer get the trippy, literary, mature reader spins on DC properties that we used to get in the great 'Bergerverse' days that led up to the launch of Vertigo. And when it comes to creator-owned series, it seems that the smart money now bring all their work to Image instead where, it seems, there is a better deal to be had.

So if Vertigo is going to make a big push in 2015-- and this is just me speculating, I haven't seen any rumors anywher-- I would guess they would have to either loosen up restrictions on sharing the DCU properties, to try to get to the Vertigo roots. Or maybe put an infusion of cash into championing (and paying up-front page rates) for original series to compete with Image.

hauberk

One might argue that it was the other way around. By my recollection, Swamp Thing (and by extension Hellblazer), Animal Man, Sandman and Doom Patrol were all of the DCU until the Bergerverse was started.

David_D

hauberk said:

One might argue that it was the other way around. By my recollection, Swamp Thing (and by extension Hellblazer), Animal Man, Sandman and Doom Patrol were all of the DCU until the Bergerverse was started.

Of course. I'm not arguing where those characters started (as above I refer to them as DCU properties). But the difference is the Bergerverse would share: Animal Man could be a member of Justice League Europe at that same time his solo title was going. Swamp Thing-- even at the same time he was starring in a mature readers solo title-- appeared in Crisis, Infinity Inc., Captain Atom, Millenium, Firestorm, and other places. (Sandman did not get shared outside of Sandman that I can recall, but I think that was more to do with the deal Gaiman had-- doesn't he have some sort of partial ownership stake in the Morpheus version of Sandman? Something like that.)

It seemed that DC could accept that two different audiences (ostensibly one older than others) could read the character in very different titles at the same time, and that would be okay.

However, it doesn't seem the current regime felt the same way. Especially once Didio was above Berger on the org chart. Didio wanted Swamp Thing back in the DCU, but it seems the character therefore had to be ONLY in the DCU. So a new China Mielville volume that was getting written (and maybe even drawn, I'm not sure) at Vertigo got cancelled.

Now, a 300 issue run is more than respectable for Hellblazer, and it is not that it had to actually run forever. But once Constantine became the younger DCU mystic superhero Constantine, we have not had any Hellblazer product at Vertigo (other than the trades of old material that continue to be produced). Sure, the monthly periodical issues of Hellblazer did not sell gangbusters towards the end. But do you think there wouldn't be an audience for the occasional Hellblazer OGN or mini? But, no. It seems that the character now needs to just be the one thing.

So I am not saying that Constantine, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, etc., can't be part of the DCU again. I just wish they gave readers enough credit that there could be DCU versions of these characters, but also the opportunity for creators to still do mature readers Vertigo stories with them, too. In the same way that Marvel had faith that they could have a Punisher MAX, Deadpool MAX, a Nick Fury MAX, and even (briefly) a Wolverine MAX title that exists in a different continuity, and for a different audience, than the mainstream MU ones, and that everyone would be ok.

But unlike the way Marvel seems okay with sharing between the mature readers and main line, and unlike the way the Bergerverse did it, it seems like the current DC regime wanted these toys back, and needs for some reason to simplify and not share them. And I don't know what they gain by that. Especially when there are those of that, for example, who don't buy the DCU Constantine title, but would likely buy more Hellblazer product if they made it.

Now I am not saying that I want the revamp of Vertigo, if it happens, to just be a return to what they used to do. But some Vertigo spins on established properties-- especially if done by top talent or interesting talent that has either never worked at DC, or hasn't in a long while-- might be a nice way to grab some attention for Vertigo again. Maybe this could be timed to coincide with Sandman Overture finally getting back on track and shipping again. And during that time help launch some new ongoing creator owned series.

hauberk

David_D said:

hauberk said:

One might argue that it was the other way around. By my recollection, Swamp Thing (and by extension Hellblazer), Animal Man, Sandman and Doom Patrol were all of the DCU until the Bergerverse was started.

Of course. I'm not arguing where those characters started (as above I refer to them as DCU properties). But the difference is the Bergerverse would share: Animal Man could be a member of Justice League Europe at that same time his solo title was going. Swamp Thing-- even at the same time he was starring in a mature readers solo title-- appeared in Crisis, Infinity Inc., Captain Atom, Millenium, Firestorm, and other places. (Sandman did not get shared outside of Sandman that I can recall, but I think that was more to do with the deal Gaiman had-- doesn't he have some sort of partial ownership stake in the Morpheus version of Sandman? Something like that.)

I'm almost entirely confident that all of those things predated the formation of the Vertigo Berger-verse (Animal Man/JLE is the one I'm less confident about).

It seemed that DC could accept that two different audiences (ostensibly one older than others) could read the character in very different titles at the same time, and that would be okay.

I'm with you on that.

However, it doesn't seem the current regime felt the same way. Especially once Didio was above Berger on the org chart. Didio wanted Swamp Thing back in the DCU, but it seems the character therefore had to be ONLY in the DCU. So a new China Mielville volume that was getting written (and maybe even drawn, I'm not sure) at Vertigo got cancelled.

That's one way to look at it. Having spent time that I will never recover reading some of Mielville's stuff, I look at it more as a benevolent intercession but I get how my taste isn't everyone's and that his stuff is appreciated by some people.

Now, a 300 issue run is more than respectable for Hellblazer, and it is not that it had to actually run forever. But once Constantine became the younger DCU mystic superhero Constantine, we have not had any Hellblazer product at Vertigo (other than the trades of old material that continue to be produced). Sure, the monthly periodical issues of Hellblazer did not sell gangbusters towards the end. But do you think there wouldn't be an audience for the occasional Hellblazer OGN or mini? But, no. It seems that the character now needs to just be the one thing.

I get where you're coming from here as well. Certainly, if they're keeping the trades evergreen, one would think that revisiting that version of the character would be something that would/could/should happen and may yet. Look how long Sandman Overture took (and is continuing to take).

So I am not saying that Constantine, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, etc., can't be part of the DCU again. I just wish they gave readers enough credit that there could be DCU versions of these characters, but also the opportunity for creators to still do mature readers Vertigo stories with them, too. In the same way that Marvel had faith that they could have a Punisher MAX, Deadpool MAX, a Nick Fury MAX, and even (briefly) a Wolverine MAX title that exists in a different continuity, and for a different audience, than the mainstream MU ones, and that everyone would be ok.

Makes sense. Certainly Hellblazer vs Constantine seems like a pretty clear difference in brand identity. I'm less certain how it gets done with Swamp Thing or other most recently Berger-verse characters.

But unlike the way Marvel seems okay with sharing between the mature readers and main line, and unlike the way the Bergerverse did it, it seems like the current DC regime wanted these toys back, and needs for some reason to simplify and not share them. And I don't know what they gain by that. Especially when there are those of that, for example, who don't buy the DCU Constantine title, but would likely buy more Hellblazer product if they made it.

Here's where I go back to my sticking point. That didn't happen in the Vertigo era Berger-verse. All of those things happened pre-Vertigo branding when there was only DC. After the Vertigo trade dress got added, I don't believe that any of those characters appeared in the DCU proper, though I could be mistaken. That, by the way, is one of the reasons I didn't support the Madame Xanadu series from Vertigo several years back. I personally wasn't interested in seeing still more DCU characters shunted off to some other sandbox - most especially one so tied to the Spectre.

Now I am not saying that I want the revamp of Vertigo, if it happens, to just be a return to what they used to do. But some Vertigo spins on established properties-- especially if done by top talent or interesting talent that has either never worked at DC, or hasn't in a long while-- might be a nice way to grab some attention for Vertigo again. Maybe this could be timed to coincide with Sandman Overture finally getting back on track and shipping again. And during that time help launch some new ongoing creator owned series.

I'd buy into the idea of a line of Vertigo-esque takes on almost any part of the DCU but I'm sleptical that I'd be much of a patron of it based on my own past enjoyment of many of those treatments as Swampthing, Sandman and Hellblazer were the only ones that started in the DCU proper that I enjoyed at all and I tried most, if not all of the early Vertigo launches.

shaneb

I would be really surprised if they integrated anything from the DCU back into Vertigo. If so, it would be a really strange turn after taking Constantine and Swamp Thing out of it. What would be the appeal of something like Justice League Dark when they could literally go for broke on Vertigo and have it stay in continuity? Besides, they did make a public declaration a few years ago that they were keeping everything creator owned, no universe. I am wondering then, what could this revamp actually be? Could it simply be a large slate of new books? Maybe moving to exclusively miniseries?

David_D

@hauberk‌ I get where you are coming from. I think we are not using a term the same which is causing some confusion-

The Bergerverse (not my term) gets used to refer to the time pre-Vertigo when Berger was tasked with making more books like Swamp Thing, and recruiting more talent like the team on Swamp Thing. Leading to the books that would lead to Vertigo (and these are titles that now have Vertigo branding put on their trades- a sort of publishing retcon).

I agree that once Vertigo was Vertigo there might have been less sharing. But the model I wish they would be more like was the pre-Vertigo Bergerverse one.

(Or the Marvel/Marvel MAX one. Or even the DC model that you can have a Johnny DC books for young readers at the same time those characters appear in much darker and more violent stories in the regular DCU. And, in some cases, have a nostalgia version with a different sensibility, like Batman '66, at the same time, too. I would like to see DC loosen up on the idea that DCU and mature readers Vertigo has to be an either/or when it comes to a character.

hauberk

David_D said:

@hauberk‌ I get where you are coming from. I think we are not using a term the same which is causing some confusion-

The Bergerverse (not my term) gets used to refer to the time pre-Vertigo when Berger was tasked with making more books like Swamp Thing, and recruiting more talent like the team on Swamp Thing. Leading to the books that would lead to Vertigo (and these are titles that now have Vertigo branding put on their trades- a sort of publishing retcon).

I agree that once Vertigo was Vertigo there might have been less sharing. But the model I wish they would be more like was the pre-Vertigo Bergerverse one.

(Or the Marvel/Marvel MAX one. Or even the DC model that you can have a Johnny DC books for young readers at the same time those characters appear in much darker and more violent stories in the regular DCU. And, in some cases, have a nostalgia version with a different sensibility, like Batman '66, at the same time, too. I would like to see DC loosen up on the idea that DCU and mature readers Vertigo has to be an either/or when it comes to a character.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Also, that would help to address the frustration that I feel toward the griping about current Starfire being inappropriate based off of Teen Titans Go!, when that was the strong deviation from the original character model (by my reckoning).

David_D

hauberk said:

David_D said:

@hauberk‌ I get where you are coming from. I think we are not using a term the same which is causing some confusion-

The Bergerverse (not my term) gets used to refer to the time pre-Vertigo when Berger was tasked with making more books like Swamp Thing, and recruiting more talent like the team on Swamp Thing. Leading to the books that would lead to Vertigo (and these are titles that now have Vertigo branding put on their trades- a sort of publishing retcon).

I agree that once Vertigo was Vertigo there might have been less sharing. But the model I wish they would be more like was the pre-Vertigo Bergerverse one.

(Or the Marvel/Marvel MAX one. Or even the DC model that you can have a Johnny DC books for young readers at the same time those characters appear in much darker and more violent stories in the regular DCU. And, in some cases, have a nostalgia version with a different sensibility, like Batman '66, at the same time, too. I would like to see DC loosen up on the idea that DCU and mature readers Vertigo has to be an either/or when it comes to a character.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Also, that would help to address the frustration that I feel toward the griping about current Starfire being inappropriate based off of Teen Titans Go!, when that was the strong deviation from the original character model (by my reckoning).

Agreed. I never got behind that line of criticism and, as a parent, I know there is a difference between letting my kid watch a LEGO Batman thing vs. watching The Dark Knight.

And I don't think that is because I am a comics fan. I think there are context cues (and even rating systems) that most parents could follow that make it clear that one is kiddie and one isn't.

SolitaireRose

If there is an upcoming Vertigo revamp, I think the idea of bringing in DCU characters doesn’t matter. It’s the fact that the line has lost its identity and cache with Berger and Axel Alonso leaving. The two Vertigo titles that are seeing any kind of success are Fables (over ten year old and ending) and American Vampire (which I would think would be doing much, much better considering the talent involved). Astro City is there, but it just landed there, it wasn’t developed by Vertigo. The rest barely limp along getting numbers that would doom them if they were under the DCU banner.

So, the first thing to ask is: What does Vertigo stand for? Is it a creator owned imprint? A horror line? An adult line? Non-super hero stuff? What does it mean that a comic is a Vertigo book?

Under Berger it was “sophisticated horror”, but after a few years it simply because DC’s adult readers line. Then, as the drifted away from horror, it was truly groundbreaking, with well regarded series and a sense that this was where you went if you wanted to do long-form adult comics. Now, you can do that at Image and I think it’s quite telling that Scott Synder’s new book ended up there, Brubaker’s crime comics have ended up there, Hickman , Rucka, etc… all are going there instead of pitching their stuff to Vertigo.

On top of all of that, what is the business reason you would go to Vertigo instead of Dark Horse, Image or Marvel? It used to be that DC would work with you to keep volumes in print, get books into bookstores, etc… DC’s trade business has fallen off a cliff, with them treating trades like periodicals and having them go out of print for months (or years) at a time. They didn’t even finish the Starman repackaging in trade IIRC, only having the last few volumes in hardcover.

So, with any revamp, they will have to answer the question “Why does Vertigo exist?” and if there isn’t a good answer other than to have a place for Neil Gaiman to have Sandman come out of every few years, why have the imprint?

shaneb

I think back to the early days of what folks are calling the "television renaissance" on HBO, where the early shows were things that no one had seen on TV before. Now, they may maintain a higher quality than network shows, but a lot of channels do this kind of programming. In the early days of Vertigo it really was doing something that wasn't being done anywhere else, especially considering the backdrop of the 90s speculator boom. If they are really going to re-establish themselves again with the same branding then they are going to have to find something that makes them stand out above the popular indie publishers and does something that is significant. It can't just be high-quality, "mature reader" titles. It has to be something more than that to stand out at this point.

shaneb

http://vertigology.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/vertigo-rumors-what-are-we-waiting-for-in-2015/

Blog post summing up the new vertigo rebranding/revamp rumors. Hope we get to hear more about this in the next couple weeks.