Episode 1548 Talkback - Comic Talk
Pants
Posts: 567
It's another blissfully structureless romp through the groves of geeky garrulity, as we take some time to talk about whatever! Pants and Murd recount their weekend road-trip to a sale at a comic shop outside Wilmington, DE. Shane reacts to the announcement of a new Batman '66-style direct-to-video animated project, then briefly ascends his soapbox, touching off a debate about cover-price inflation. Chris rails against the failings of the Walking Dead comic. Plus Muddle the Murd and TV talk (featuring the new 'iZombie' series), with many a tantalizing tangent along the way! (1:22:28)
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I'm also hoping that as time goes on, we are introduced to some of the members of Liv's supporting cast from the comic. Namely her ghost and were-terrier buddies.
But, that said, I haven't gotten a regular "big two" book in years, and I don't plan on doing so now. The best DC comics I've read in recent years are all classic stuff, including a re-read of John Ostrander's Suicide Squad and a number of those great 80s 4-issue mini series like Cinder & Ashe and Keith Giffen's Dr. Fate. I've loved having these on my to-read pile, and I would say to you: read those classic runs that are waiting for you; they'll be "new to you" but have that feel you, and me and many others, love from our comics (those of us of a certain age anyway). It's the best thing you can do.
And, I would be remiss if I did not also state: if you're curious about a series, when it comes out in trade, go to your local library and see if they have it, and if they don't, ask them if they can get it for you through interlibrary loan. This is how I've read a ton of recent stuff, over the past few years. It's easy on my wallet and allows me not to worry about whether I'm getting my money's worth from the reading experience - IT'S FREE!!!! Plus, it also shows there is a desire for these types of collections and/or graphic novels, which leads to more purchases by libraries, which means more sales for the comic companies, which is a good thing.
Another great episode, gentlemen. Thank you for all you do.
chris
Keep trying, Chuck! Heck, you're a published author of encyclopedia articles on comics! I'm positive you'll hit on the right combination of questions to Muddle me eventually.
I haven't heard the $4.99 rumors. I wouldn't be surprised if we're at the point where $4.99 is the new normal price-point for special/bonus-sized issues -- in fact, I think it already is. So, if this summer we get a bunch of $4.99 #1 issues that are 48-pages long, I wouldn't blink at that. But I don't think the regular price of a regular comic will be $4.99 anytime soon. Certainly not from DC, where $2.99 is still the norm, as mentioned on the show.
All my Marvel reading is subsidized by selling the digital codes to friends, though. I wouldn't be reading 90% of those titles otherwise, and my friends who buy the codes wouldn't be reading them otherwise either. The discounted price works for both parties.
bleedingcool.com/2015/03/12/dc-comics-move-4-99-newsstand/
Bleeding Cool of course, the go to rumor site for comics.
Anyway fun episode guys. I really missed this Comic Talk hodgepodge type episodes, between British comic conventions, 10th anniversary shows and 'Marvel-ous' spotlights, it had been awhile. Maybe I just love Muddle the Murd so much I hate going too long without it.
I dropped Walking Dead around issue 84/85, I totally agree with you about Kirkman, Chris. Great idea man, not the best scripter. I should mention too, not just a genius about coming up with ideas himself, but very astute at recognizing great ideas presented to him for his imprint. Clone and Birthright being two books that immediately spring to mind. His is also a hell of a nice guy and very funny. That was what surprised me the most about meeting him, his sense of humor. Well that and his threat to file a lawsuit against me, I wasn't expecting that. I'll have to tell you guys about it sometime.
A few words about the price of new comics. Absolutely absurd. I don't think that the rise in the price of comics has been consistent with inflation, but obviously that has some effect on the rise. I think a much bigger affect would be that the creators are paid more and deservedly so. If you look back at the way some of the most well-respected and legendary creators were treated by the industry in their later years it is very disheartening. Not an industry with retirement or benefits really, so I think the fact that creators today are making more is a good thing. If it means I pay more for my books I am ok with that. What I am less accepting of is the rise in price due to production costs. I don't need glossy paper and all these crazy colors and super sharp printing processes if it means my books cost $5. The books today are beautiful there is no doubt, but the books of my youth were beautiful and charming too in their own way. I wish they would put out at least a few books on newsprint for us old-timers. It seems like the companies look to the magazine side of publishing and say, "Well those are $8 so we are doing ok at $4 or $5" As Chris said it is a matter of value for your entertainment dollar. It is true that a lot of the independent books offer more bang for your buck with added content. I have had this discussion with Top Cow President Matt Hawkins a few times. He says the reason he includes the 'science classes' and other extras in the books he writes is for the express purpose of giving people more value, more things to read and a richer experience from enjoying his books. I know shipping is more now as well, which could be considered a production cost. The thing about that is, we know have digital, you can save a lot of $ as a publisher by digitally releasing your books, no shipping or printing costs. Yet they don't pass those savings on, same day digital release is the same price as a physical book, There are various reasons for this, including not wanting to hurt retailers bottom line even more, but I'll leave that discussion for another time. I know the digital stuff drops in price later and that is when I tend to get most of my digital books. Still this hobby is expensive and I think that is one of the biggest barriers for new readers to overcome and to remain regular comic readers. It's been an issue for a long time and isn't going away soon. On my recent drive from central CA to Phoenix I marathon-ed some old episodes and in one Deemer was talking about wishing American comic book companies put out the "phone book" type anthologies like the Japanese do and that was in 2006.
Well I have rambled long enough, great show guys. I really enjoy how much listening to you guys make me appreciate this passion we all share. Plus it always gives me food for thought about the direction, popularity and community of the industry.
However, as I stood there with this beautiful item in my hands, I saw the $4.99 (£4.15 UK) price tag and thought, actually, no. That's too much for one single comic. I put it back and left, bereft and a little sad, hoping one day to pick it up for a more reasonable price in trade or as back-issue bin floppies.
I never thought I'd see the day that I wouldn't buy an Alan Davis comic, but here we are...
I am completely in agreement with Shane. I have given up on floppies and have embraced digital all the way. I only buy digital books when either Comixology or Dark Horse have sales. I cannot justify paying $3.99 for a comic book. I have been reading material that I already have and not paying too much attention to the hype machines of the Big 2.
I have been rereading Brandon Graham's brilliantly surreal and very funny King City again. I am finding it a rewarding experience because there are so many layers to the characters and Graham's amazing art. There are so many puns and jokes in the background of this book that is really pays off to go over each panel slowly.
I also subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and I am reading, for the first time, the entire Lee & Kirby Fantastic Four run. I am currently at issue #58. It has been a great experience to see how the book evolved over its development and how Kirby's art became larger and more cosmic over time.
So glad to finally hear Chris of @wildpigcomics "jump the shark" moment for Walking Dead. You referenced it many, many months ago and properly waited for @ShaneKelly and @Pants to get caught up so the discussion might be apropos, but alas Shane is still WAY, behind.
I also want to thank Pants for doing such a stellar job of producer these last few months. I am quite pleased you did your homework and plowed through a bunch of issues and reminded Chris Eberle that he intended to tell this his thoughts on the subject. Well done. That's good producing sir.
As far as new comic prices, if I had as many unread issues as @Adam_Murdough or Shane or any of you guys, I'd only read whatever you planned to review and would stick to the back issues. The amount of new comic readers willing to pay $4 or $5 for a comic they've never read will diminish rapidly, and with Marvel's unlimited digital reader deal, I doubt floppies are going to be with us much longer at this rate. I myself have got 100+ trades that I haven't even cracked open yet?! It's become this strange habit of buying comics that I know I'll like, but I don't have time to read. I have hundreds of old books, from several eras that I have yet to read, floppy runs, hardcovers, trade paperback collections... years worth of reading if I didn't buy another book.
I don't know if I'm expecting to be bed-ridden for a few months or what, but I need to stop collecting for a bit and get back to actually reading. Great discussion, as always guys. I enjoy the discussion as much as the books themselves sometimes.
I believe I am the one that may have caused you so much worry or thought about your ... voice strength ;-) Please know you are doing a fine job and not blowing out my speakers at all. Don't worry any longer about that issue. I truly didn't mean to cause you to think about it so much. And please know it was not just you that was cracking my speakers recently ... though perhaps it was in the past, heehee, but you guys have done a fine job of getting the levels under control.
There was just one time during the FF Bronze age recap that was too hot, but that wasn't you. Well, I guess you were involved, but it was just one time when everyone jumped in with over excitement about something that was said or stated. The rest of the show was just fine.
Basically what I am trying to say (and perhaps failing to properly express) is I want you to be you. I want your excitement. You love what you love and we all love hearing you express it. Please don't let my one minor problem interfere with your enjoyment. I am glad you are back behind the mic (sorry for the reason why) and I honestly missed you while you were gone. You add a certain style to the show that I don't want changed.
Once again I am sorry if I got in your head with my comment and that you gave it a second thought. It honestly wasn't directed entirely at you and I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. You and the rest of the guys make a great team and I have enjoyed the show for many years. Don't change a thing ... now that the levels are true.
;)
Keep on keepin' on
Peace,
Perry
But as far as inflation goes, Comics are one of the number one highest items to go above and beyond the inflation mark. I can't remember the exact numbers, but a couple years ago I checked about 20 things (like milk, tires, lumber, novels, movie tickets, dishwashers, televisions, etc ...) and while all of those have increased (some are dependent on resources available) the amount of increase in price to all of the 20 items was minuscule when compared to the increase price of comics. Even cigarettes (at the time) had not increased in price as much as comics had.
The reason ... just too many people getting paid.
:D
When you have to buy the material and then pay creatorsan increasing amount of money, it just keeps getting more and more expensive. I can't think of any other industry where you pay 5 or 6 different people to do a different job each month to produce one item. And then pay another company to actually mass produce that item, only to turn around the next month and repeat the process.
I am not in anyway saying I agree with the cost increase of comics, no way, but when creators were getting paid $10 a page the comics were a lot cheaper. What are the creator fees now? I mean, it use to be an artist could have a nice apartment and a decent but not grand life making comics, but now? Some of these guys are making tons and tons of money.
Now I am also not saying the creators don't deserve it, but man, it is really starting to hurt the old wallet.
When I was six, I would get my allowance, a measly $2 ... hey what can I say, I wasn't union ... and I would go to the local 7-11 and I would get a medium Slurpee and about five comics. Now, if I give my grand-kids $5 (over 200% more) they can get a super-small Slurpee and ONE comic. Unless that comic is a larger issue and then they still need tax money.
Sad to think about it actually. :))
There are some creators at the top of their field that do well. But I think there are not many people making Image-founders-in-the-early-90s money. Or even Chris-Claremont-and-John-Byrne-in-the-80s money, relative to cost of living at the time. I don't think that your average, working comics professional even at the big two is rolling in it.
I mean, of course, if you go back far enough into the exploitative early days of comics, there was a much more piecework approach that paid a lot of creators less than they could live on, even at the time. But I think those days are far enough back that talent costs are not the main reason why the price of new comics have outpaced inflation relative to other amusements.
The reality is that, if you're a fan of new, periodical paper comics, then you are part of a very specialized, very small group that likes a thing that is expensive to make. That group used to be much larger. And so the things were cheaper. No analogy will be a perfect analogy, but I would guess that lovers of vinyl records, or model trains, have probably have the same complaints as we do, as the thing they loved went from being a popular amusement to a more and more specialized thing. And add an industry that has so few competitors that they can basically price fix at a high price point.
And, remember, if we are talking about consuming comics when they come out, and on paper, then you are paying for that urgency. If you are willing to wait for later windows and are flexible on formats, you can pay a lot less per issue.
But if we want a new comic when it is still new, then we pay a premium for that urgency. They've got us, if that's how you want them. And I often do that. But given how much they cost versus how much entertainment time that occupy, I know that these are a luxury good.
In my case, I have gravitated away from the Big Two in favor of other publishers. I feel like there is a wealth of diverse and exciting new material hiding in the back of every Previews catalogue. And a good portion of what I've been reading from other publishers over the past year has included letters pages, fan art pages, essays, interviews and various other bonus features, in addition to well-written (and quite often thought-provoking) stories and beautiful art, for the same price as a mainstream book or, in some cases, less.
However, every reader is different and assigns their own value to what they choose to buy and read and that's what's important. To be happy with one's own purchases.
At this stage in my life I'm simply not interested in salt, carbon and water. Tell me about sadness and sorrow and the love of a man and a woman.
I am not watching the Walking Dead, I watched the first season, it bored me. I never went back though I DVR'ed the second season I just never bothered to watch it. I should say though that I watch VERY LITTLE television. There is no show I watch on a regular basis.
Keep the discussion going everyone, I am enjoying this thread! Thanks everyone!
I believe the price for print magazines, in general, is ridiculous. A couple of years ago I was looking at picking up some magazine off the newsstand at a local grocery store and actually LOL-ed when I saw the cover price was $8.99 or something. I was dumbstruck. The last actual magazine I remember purchasing like this was at least 10 years ago and was no more than $3 or $4. I'm not saying I like any of it, but just for some perspective on the cost of magazines. One of the other podcasts I listen to is a podcast from a magazine and the publisher often talks about how they make nothing in subscriptions. In fact, they lose money. All their money is made in advertising within the magazine. As a result, newsstand cover price is about $5, but you can get a 12 month subscription for $12 (they had a flash sale the other day for $9/year).
That said, I'm not going to add any real commentary. I just thought I'd put this out there for some perspective of print media outside of comics.
Now, with Secret Wars, I was looking to get only the tie-in titles of stories I've enjoyed from the past. If they were one-shots, I probably would consider paying an extra couple bucks. Instead, they're 4-5 issue mini-series. I opted for 2 of the tie-in series to run with & the rest I'll consider the TPB at a Wild Pig event.
10 years ago, I would pay the cost no never minds & get the titles I wanted. Today, I can't spend $150-200 a month on books. My pickings are kept very short for various reasons. Title costs are one of them.
M