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CGC Value or Scam?

Is CGC making most of its money (or slabbing most of its comics) by scamming people into thinking it is worth their money, when it is really not?

I'm not talking about a rare golden age book that is worth thousands of dollars. I'm talking about seeing just about every book from the modern and copper (crapper?) age being slabbed by someone. When I see this, my thought is always, "great, your $4 comic book is now "officially" worth $4. Hope the $15 plus shipping and handling was worth it to you."

Comments

  • mphilmphil Posts: 448
    Well if you can sell your $4 comic book for $30 because the CGC logo makes it more valuable in the eyes of buyers then it's worth it, no?

    Without actually touching a comic book it's hard to tell it's condition, at least for my untrained eyes, so if I'm buying a $100+ comic over the internet I do probably prefer those with the CGC seal. Maybe I'm gullible though.
  • The short answer: yes, yes it is.
  • mphilmphil Posts: 448

    The short answer: yes, yes it is.

    Do you think it's not valuable because their ratings are inaccurate or because the service is overpriced or...?
  • To clarify, I'm talking about a book with a guide value of $4 (or $10, 100, whatever). I understand that suckers will buy it for $30, but it's still not "worth" that in the long run, since you can get the same book on the market somewhere else for $4. I've seen CGC'd books that are the same ones in mint condition in the 25 cent bins.

    I would agree with the internet purchase argument in the old days of ebay, but now, you can return any item and, if it is not as listed, you even get your shipping cost back. Maybe for a craigslist sale or something, but who's slabbing a book for a craigslist sale?
  • mphil said:

    The short answer: yes, yes it is.

    Do you think it's not valuable because their ratings are inaccurate or because the service is overpriced or...?
    In many cases, it is not the service that is not valuable, it is the book that will never go up enough to justify the cost of slabbing. Yet, people are brainwashed to think that slabbing makes the book more valuable. 9.2 is 9.2, whether it's slabbed or not.
  • Here's an example: People are slabbing the new Star Wars #1. It sold about a million copies. You have to figure there are thousands of 9.8s. Even if it weren't a comic book, just the star wars fans alone are going to be trying to preserve a couple hundred thousand copies in top condition. Add the comic collectors and this book's value will never outgrow inflation. There are just too many on the market.
  • mphil said:

    The short answer: yes, yes it is.

    Do you think it's not valuable because their ratings are inaccurate or because the service is overpriced or...?
    No, I meant, yes, it is valuable, and yes, it is a scam.

    I think it's valuable in the sense that it sets a standard that people can agree on. Although, as you said, their grading isn't nearly as consistent as they'd like people to think. Also, it's valuable for those who play along. I mean, those who feed into the idea of, “Don't take my word for it, take these guys’ word for it. They have an official stamp,” get much more money when selling their books than those who don't. If I were to sell a high-end book, I'd almost certainly have it slabbed first, because it makes a significant difference.

    But, I think it's a scam in that it's not all that difficult to learn how to grade a comic. Personally, I think anyone who regularly buys mid- to high-end books without knowing how to grade a comic is a fool. And I think it's a scam in that hardly anyone seems to trust a comic’s grade if it doesn't have a CGC stamp on it, which is ridiculous. I mean, I'm as cynical as the next guy, but there are plenty of honest dealers out there.

    It's gotten to the point that I could walk into a random store, buy a high-end book off the wall the shop has graded at VF+ when it's actually a VF, and still pay a lower price for that book than I could a CGC-graded book at their equivalent of VF.

    When you boil it all down, a book is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If people want to pay inflated prices for some extra feeling of security, more power to them.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    zikaatlaw said:

    Is CGC making most of its money (or slabbing most of its comics) by scamming people into thinking it is worth their money, when it is really not?

    I don't believe CGC is intentionally scamming people.

    However, I do believe many people are fooling themselves into thinking their flavor of the month comics will be valuable some day.

    Now that Wizard Magazine--which seemed to be a major force in slab hyping--has been gone for a while, is crapslabbing still so prevalent?
  • zikaatlaw said:

    In many cases, it is not the service that is not valuable, it is the book that will never go up enough to justify the cost of slabbing. Yet, people are brainwashed to think that slabbing makes the book more valuable. 9.2 is 9.2, whether it's slabbed or not.

    Slabbing may not make a book substantially more valuable, on the low end of the spectrum, but it does provide a form of guarantee. As CGC and CBCS are trusted names in grading, when you buy a 9.8 book that is encased by them, you are buying a form of guarantee that the book is indeed a 9.8 as graded by the industry leading graders.

    Now, that may not mean beans to you, but to a person who wants to pick up as mint a copy as possible, to save the trouble of having to figure out if their back issue pick up is a 9.4 vs 9.8 - these services meet that requirement.

    I will agree that there are plenty of $4 books that have $30 worth of grading, slabbing, and shipping on them. Simply put, only pay $4 for it if you want it. As a retailer and a collector, I have many slabbed books in my shop, as well as a few in my collection. They range from new to old, and from key issues to non-key issues. I get slabbed books for those that mean a lot to me (Batman Beyond #1 vol 1), but probably don't mean much to anyone else. I know it will be safe.
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Only time I've seen a justification for slabbing is if you get it remarked, sketched on, or signed at a convention. Go that route and you're probably looking to display it or showcase it somehow. I know at our local convention (Phoenix) we have a CGC booth where the artist will accompany the buyer to the booth and verify the signature or sketch.

    Personally? It's not for me, but I'm not really in the collecting game end of the hobby.
  • Torchsong said:

    Personally? It's not for me, but I'm not really in the collecting game end of the hobby.

    I think you nailed it right there. For the collector, the slab is that guarantee that the book's pedigree is as described, and I think more valuable the older the book. For the reader only, it's a non-issue.
  • I'm not a collector, per se, either, but my back issue buying tends to mostly consist of older books when I can find them for affordable prices (I'm talking ’60s and earlier). I don't buy slabbed books simply because more often than not, it pushes the prices beyond my price range. So I mostly end up with beat up reader's copies, which I don't mind as long as the book isn't falling apart.
  • Five reasons CGC is totally a scam:
    • CGC only indicates the grade of the comic at the time it was certified! To maintain the certification, it can not be removed from the slab. Slabbed comics cannot be touched or read, defeating the purpose of the hobby.
    • CGC grading is not consistent! The CGC would have you believe there is an empirical method for numerically grading comics. This is not true. Grading is very subjective. Is a book with a corner crease more or less valuable than a book with spine stress marks and no other defects? Depending on who at the CGC is grading a book and the mood they are in that day can dramatically change the value they place on it.
    • It is not at all difficult to learn how to grade comics. There are many free resources available online that provide guidance on how to do this, and anyone serious about collecting comics should really take the time to learn this skill. Only purchase books that meet your own personal grading standard and you’ll never be ripped-off or disappointed.
    • The CGC is a business, not a non-profit organization, and the company charges a lot to their clients for the grading process. Their customers, in turn, pass the cost on to naïve collectors, which is why certified books cost three to ten times more than uncertified books. People only bring their books to the CGC so they can artificially pump-up their value.
    • Individuals who purchase comics solely as an investment (rather than a hobby) often rely on CGC certifications as insurance on the value of the book over time. However, comics actually make a rather poor investment option. Most post-Silver Age books struggle to retain any real value at all, and older books do not gain significant value unless they are extremely rare. To paraphrase Warren Buffet, if you are only interested in investment, put your savings in an SNP500 mutual fund. You won’t achieve any better return on investment than that.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881

    Five reasons CGC is totally a scam:
    • CGC only indicates the grade of the comic at the time it was certified! To maintain the certification, it can not be removed from the slab. Slabbed comics cannot be touched or read, defeating the purpose of the hobby.
    • CGC grading is not consistent! The CGC would have you believe there is an empirical method for numerically grading comics. This is not true. Grading is very subjective. Is a book with a corner crease more or less valuable than a book with spine stress marks and no other defects? Depending on who at the CGC is grading a book and the mood they are in that day can dramatically change the value they place on it.
    • It is not at all difficult to learn how to grade comics. There are many free resources available online that provide guidance on how to do this, and anyone serious about collecting comics should really take the time to learn this skill. Only purchase books that meet your own personal grading standard and you’ll never be ripped-off or disappointed.
    • The CGC is a business, not a non-profit organization, and the company charges a lot to their clients for the grading process. Their customers, in turn, pass the cost on to naïve collectors, which is why certified books cost three to ten times more than uncertified books. People only bring their books to the CGC so they can artificially pump-up their value.
    • Individuals who purchase comics solely as an investment (rather than a hobby) often rely on CGC certifications as insurance on the value of the book over time. However, comics actually make a rather poor investment option. Most post-Silver Age books struggle to retain any real value at all, and older books do not gain significant value unless they are extremely rare. To paraphrase Warren Buffet, if you are only interested in investment, put your savings in an SNP500 mutual fund. You won’t achieve any better return on investment than that.

    Welcome aboard, @Shadowlord

    Personally, I don't have an opinion on CGC, having never used them, or bought anything that has been graded. And I don't imagine ever doing so, as for me, my long years of the comics hobby has been about acquiring lots to read and holding onto things to maybe read again someday, or give to someone else to read, without pristine condition being a factor.

    Though I think the points you make about a private company rising up and sort of declaring themselves the industry standard feels problematic, in the ways you are suggesting. It feels like they came out of nowhere, and were successful in becoming a provenance for high-end collecting, but there had also been a LOT of years of high end collecting going on before they were ever around.

  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,736
    David_D said:

    It feels like they came out of nowhere, and were successful in becoming a provenance for high-end collecting, but there had also been a LOT of years of high end collecting going on before they were ever around.

    Everyone here should know by now that I am not a fan of CGC, but to this particular point, I think it's safe to say that without online buying — eBay, in particular — where you're buying a comic based on one or three images and can’t inspect the comic first-hand before purchasing, CGC probably would not have caught on the way it has. EBay launched in 1995 and took a couple of years to really take off. CGC started in 2000, not long after comic buying/selling became an established thing there. I don't think that’s a coincidence. There were still trust issues when it came to dealing on eBay at that point (though most of those have been addressed now), and they filled a “need” for many people. It was a right-place-at-the-right-time scenario for their business model, and they were able to get more than enough people to buy in and make it sustainable.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881

    David_D said:

    It feels like they came out of nowhere, and were successful in becoming a provenance for high-end collecting, but there had also been a LOT of years of high end collecting going on before they were ever around.

    Everyone here should know by now that I am not a fan of CGC, but to this particular point, I think it's safe to say that without online buying — eBay, in particular — where you're buying a comic based on one or three images and can’t inspect the comic first-hand before purchasing, CGC probably would not have caught on the way it has. EBay launched in 1995 and took a couple of years to really take off. CGC started in 2000, not long after comic buying/selling became an established thing there. I don't think that’s a coincidence. There were still trust issues when it came to dealing on eBay at that point (though most of those have been addressed now), and they filled a “need” for many people. It was a right-place-at-the-right-time scenario for their business model, and they were able to get more than enough people to buy in and make it sustainable.
    That's a great point. Thinking back, the kind of pre-CGC sales between collectors would need to rely on someone doing enough transactions to build a reputation and repeat business, the way a store would. eBay/CGC allowed it to be possible for someone with only a few, or even one, high value issue to sell a marketplace to do so, which is a huge change from before. So in that kind of wide open, more flat market, I could see where it was perfect timing for CGC's use case.
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