Episode 1593 Talkback - The CGS Best of 2015 Nominations Show

Adam_Murdough

At last! It's that magical time of the year again, when the Geeks take time to reflect on the high points of a year in comics, and invite their listeners to help determine which of the series, creators, and events that defined that year deserve to be proclaimed... 'The Best'! The candidates for 'Best of 2015,' ours and yours, are revealed here, with final voting to follow! But first, we warm up the crowd with a bit of Comic Talk regarding the recent DC Rebirth announcement! (2:03:32)

Listen here.

nweathington

Previews!

Dan_in_WI

I too want to have great hope for the Rebirth.
I'm glad they are returning to Vol. 1 numbering for Action and Detective but I too have to be cynical and wonder if that would happen if #1000 weren't on the horizon. It should be done because it is a good idea, not because there's a milestone in sight. Marvel has played that game at times (I think the most recent was Fantastic Four) and when they do it, it doesn't usually stick very long. It seems to me if going back to pre-Flashpoint number were "a good idea" then it should be a good idea for ALL titles and not just imminent milestone titles. That said I'd even be okay if the current numbering were continued as it can get confusing when back issue diving keeping track of breaks in numbering and different volumes. But since the publishers don't make money off back issues they don't care about those inconviences. Basically my last choice is to have another slew of #1's. That has really turned me off to a lot of Marvel and now it looks like DC might be going down that road as well.
As for a return to legacy, it remains to be seen what that will mean. If you are of the mindset that the legacy occurred pre-Flashpoint then you would have to throw out the last five years. But if you take a more abstract reading of that statement it could simply mean abandoning DCYou and going back to tighter continuity. I for one have hated DCYou. It's just too loosey goosey for me. At this point I'm invested enough in post-Flashpoint that I'd hate to see some of that go away. But there are plenty of pre-Flashpoint things I miss so I'm of mixed minds. This is the hole DC has painted itself into.

i_am_scifi

I was the only one who voted for Multiversity Deluxe Hardcover as Best Graphic Album? Come on, man!

nweathington

i_am_scifi said:

I was the only one who voted for Multiversity Deluxe Hardcover as Best Graphic Album? Come on, man!

Blame it on the smaller voting pool this year.

Best Graphic Album was a tough one, as there were a lot of great reprint books and collections that came out this year: Toppi’s The Collector, Toth’s Bravo for Adventure, the third Corto Maltese collection, Private Eye... I could go on and on. I liked Multiversity quite a bit, but it wasn't even in my top five for reprint/collection. I always pick an original graphic novel anyway if, as was the case here, there's not a separate category for original versus reprint, which is why I went with Two Brothers (an adaptation of a novel, so not completely original per se, but original to the format)... which also only received one vote. A lot of great books got left out of the final ballot. It happens every year, even with the Eisners and the Harveys—it’s the nature of the beast.

i_am_scifi

nweathington said:

i_am_scifi said:

I was the only one who voted for Multiversity Deluxe Hardcover as Best Graphic Album? Come on, man!

Blame it on the smaller voting pool this year.

Best Graphic Album was a tough one, as there were a lot of great reprint books and collections that came out this year: Toppi’s The Collector, Toth’s Bravo for Adventure, the third Corto Maltese collection, Private Eye... I could go on and on. I liked Multiversity quite a bit, but it wasn't even in my top five for reprint/collection. I always pick an original graphic novel anyway if, as was the case here, there's not a separate category for original versus reprint, which is why I went with Two Brothers (an adaptation of a novel, so not completely original per se, but original to the format)... which also only received one vote. A lot of great books got left out of the final ballot. It happens every year, even with the Eisners and the Harveys—it’s the nature of the beast.

I know, I'm not mad or anything. I was just voicing the frustrations of the people! Okay, the one person. Okay, me.

nweathington

i_am_scifi said:

nweathington said:

i_am_scifi said:

I was the only one who voted for Multiversity Deluxe Hardcover as Best Graphic Album? Come on, man!

Blame it on the smaller voting pool this year.

Best Graphic Album was a tough one, as there were a lot of great reprint books and collections that came out this year: Toppi’s The Collector, Toth’s Bravo for Adventure, the third Corto Maltese collection, Private Eye... I could go on and on. I liked Multiversity quite a bit, but it wasn't even in my top five for reprint/collection. I always pick an original graphic novel anyway if, as was the case here, there's not a separate category for original versus reprint, which is why I went with Two Brothers (an adaptation of a novel, so not completely original per se, but original to the format)... which also only received one vote. A lot of great books got left out of the final ballot. It happens every year, even with the Eisners and the Harveys—it’s the nature of the beast.

I know, I'm not mad or anything. I was just voicing the frustrations of the people! Okay, the one person. Okay, me.

I got over my frustrations with the voting process long ago—well, most of them anyway. Previews!

playdohsrepublic

I know the geeks are slow on digital stuff, but you need to get on it. Insufferable started 4 years ago, The Private Eye was 3 (I get that it's the collection that's nominated) and from the last OTR, The Legend of Wonder Woman is 15 chapters in. You guys are missing out on so much great content. And those are just the stories that have made it to print. Maybe next year you can add a "Best Digital First" category?

JaceTheComicSource

Hey Geeks,

My thoughts about the nominations. I very much disagree with both Chris and Danni choosing pre-existing characters for Best New Character. I understand Sam Wilson is in a new Heroic Role and this was a new version of Carol Danvers, but to me they are NOT new characters. Much like Shane himself said in the episode, the awards show is an opportunity to shine a spotlight on things others may have missed. So to pick characters in this category who have been been around so long feels very much like cheating, (which Chris himself mentioned) and a missed opportunity. For me Rowan Black, from Rucka & Scott's Black Magick is a much more appropriate and deserving choice, though there are many, many other NEW characters who could have been chosen.

Nice to hear both Valiant and Lazarus gets some love, but I have to say I am sick of hearing Saga and Fiona Staples at this point. Inking is a dying art, the biggest indication of a good inker though, is when you see the art of any particular penciler can look so different depending on the inker. Seeing a penciler suffer under the hands of an inker the are not compatible with is so painful.

I also find it interesting how much I can dislike a series others find as best of. I found Squirrel Girl unreadable, only title I find worse is Howard the Duck. Just goes to show you the diversity and variety that is out there in comics today.

nweathington

JaceTheComicSource said:

Inking is a dying art, the biggest indication of a good inker though, is when you see the art of any particular penciler can look so different depending on the inker. Seeing a penciler suffer under the hands of an inker the are not compatible with is so painful.

I disagree that inking is a dying art, though I will agree that it is becoming increasingly difficult to make a career solely as an inker. Inking is a changing art to some degree, but it is far from dying. More and more artists are inking themselves, whether that be digitally or traditionally. (In fact, most of my favorite inkers only ink themselves.) And for every new artist I see who leaves the lighting choices up to the colorist (if they aren't also coloring the book themselves), I see ten more making those lighting choices in their inks. And very few of those artists are simply jumping up the contrast to convert their pencils into inks. Most are, instead, adding to the drawing in the inking stage.

bralinator

JaceTheComicSource said:

Hey Geeks,

My thoughts about the nominations. I very much disagree with both Chris and Danni choosing pre-existing characters for Best New Character. I understand Sam Wilson is in a new Heroic Role and this was a new version of Carol Danvers, but to me they are NOT new characters. Much like Shane himself said in the episode, the awards show is an opportunity to shine a spotlight on things others may have missed. So to pick characters in this category who have been been around so long feels very much like cheating, (which Chris himself mentioned) and a missed opportunity. For me Rowan Black, from Rucka & Scott's Black Magick is a much more appropriate and deserving choice, though there are many, many other NEW characters who could have been chosen.

Nice to hear both Valiant and Lazarus gets some love, but I have to say I am sick of hearing Saga and Fiona Staples at this point. Inking is a dying art, the biggest indication of a good inker though, is when you see the art of any particular penciler can look so different depending on the inker. Seeing a penciler suffer under the hands of an inker the are not compatible with is so painful.

I also find it interesting how much I can dislike a series others find as best of. I found Squirrel Girl unreadable, only title I find worse is Howard the Duck. Just goes to show you the diversity and variety that is out there in comics today.

Several good points here @JaceTheComicSource. I love these episodes, but I agree that it would be cool if all the geeks were as strict with their picks as the listeners try to be. Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers are merely new adventures of existing characters, or just new takes - the characters have been published in comics for years. Choosing them as official noms feels a bit like it narrows the field and ignores a lot of new characters from independent publishers or if this is the criteria, then it grossly overlooks new takes on existing and licensed properties at other publishers.

That said, like Shane, these annual awards are a good opportunity for me to add a few books to my queue that I hadn't heard of or checked out before. For what it's worth, none of Marvel's anthropomorphic characters made my cut this year. I was also glad to hear Vlaiant, Lazarus, and Mark Waid get some props as well.

Looking forward to hearing the official winners!

JaceTheComicSource

nweathington said:

JaceTheComicSource said:

Inking is a dying art, the biggest indication of a good inker though, is when you see the art of any particular penciler can look so different depending on the inker. Seeing a penciler suffer under the hands of an inker the are not compatible with is so painful.

I disagree that inking is a dying art, though I will agree that it is becoming increasingly difficult to make a career solely as an inker. Inking is a changing art to some degree, but it is far from dying. More and more artists are inking themselves, whether that be digitally or traditionally. (In fact, most of my favorite inkers only ink themselves.) And for every new artist I see who leaves the lighting choices up to the colorist (if they aren't also coloring the book themselves), I see ten more making those lighting choices in their inks. And very few of those artists are simply jumping up the contrast to convert their pencils into inks. Most are, instead, adding to the drawing in the inking stage.

Yes Nweathington, you are 100% correct. I misspoke and do agree with you. I meant that the artist who solely inks is actually what is becoming rare. I guess I just don't see an artist who inks himself as an inker, but of course they are. However, we have also seen a huge uptick in the amount of art that goes straight from pencil to being colored. Obviously this is due to the rise of digital rendering. I suppose what I should be lamenting is not the increasing scarcity of artist who only ink, but rather the lack of original art which is a by product of drawing in the digital age. I worry that the skills of master inkers will become very rare. There is something to be said for the visceral quality of working with ink and brush. Simon, Sinnot, Wood, Palmer and so many more incredible inkers have worked on classic comics of the oast, I wonder what they would think of today's tools.

compsolut

JaceTheComicSource said:

I also find it interesting how much I can dislike a series others find as best of. I found Squirrel Girl unreadable, only title I find worse is Howard the Duck. Just goes to show you the diversity and variety that is out there in comics today.

I too find this interesting, as just in what you used as examples, I both agree and disagree. I really didn't like Squirrel Girl, and it wasn't because of the words, it just wasn't a compelling story to me. However, I really enjoy Howard. It has just the right amount of goof for me.

nweathington

JaceTheComicSource said:

I guess I just don't see an artist who inks himself as an inker, but of course they are.

More often than not, the artist who inks themself is often doing much more work in the inking stage than an inker who is inking another penciler. When pencilers know they are going to be inked by someone else, unless that penciler and inker have an already established working relationship and are comfortable with each other (and sometimes even if they do), that penciler is almost always going to draw very tightly. That wasn’t always the case, but the role of “finisher” is a very rare thing indeed these days, and today’s inkers are generally expected to follow the pencilers’ lines as closely as possible. Most artists who ink themselves, however, pencil relatively loosely (some more loosely than others) so that they can be more spontaneous in the inking stage. Many use the pencils only as guidelines and do more of the drawing in the inks than in the pencils.

JaceTheComicSource said:

However, we have also seen a huge uptick in the amount of art that goes straight from pencil to being colored.

I wouldn't call it a huge uptick. There are more artists using a painterly approach these days, but it's not a huge number. And even many of the painters still ink the work, though they often block out certain lines and make them a color other than black. And many painters, Paolo Rivera for one (though he doesn't paint as much now), often do a grayscale “ink wash” before laying over the color. That's still a form of inking.

JaceTheComicSource said:

I suppose what I should be lamenting is not the increasing scarcity of artist who only ink, but rather the lack of original art which is a by product of drawing in the digital age. I worry that the skills of master inkers will become very rare. There is something to be said for the visceral quality of working with ink and brush. Simon, Sinnot, Wood, Palmer and so many more incredible inkers have worked on classic comics of the oast, I wonder what they would think of today's tools.

I think too much is made of this actually. The digital inking technology is becoming closer and closer to replicating the feel of physically inking with brush and paper. And I hear so often complaints from artists about having to “fight the page” when working physically, either because of some variation in the quality of the ink, or the paper, or the brush or pen. Working digitally allows for a consistent result. [EDIT: Ultimately, there are pluses and minuses to both ways, and it usually comes down to whichever way the artist feels more comfortable working is going to result in the best possible end product.]

Some might say that happy accidents occur when the tools are less predictable, and I agree with that, but by the same token, many artists I know say that switching to digital allowed them to be more creative. The mental pressure of having to make the perfect line disappeared for them when a simple click of the keyboard could erase any mistakes. It put them in a comfort zone that allowed them to be more experimental in their approach.

As for the artists you mentioned, I think Wood would have loved working digitally. Wood was more concerned with the final product—the printed page in the comic—than he was with the process. Whatever gave him the result he wanted in the most efficient way possible would have been okay with him. I think Simon, too—being a businessman at heart—would have had no problem with digital inking if it had been around in the ’40s. More upfront cost, but no having to buy paper and ink and brushes for the staff every month? He would have been all in, I believe.

playdohsrepublic

I remember having this exact conversation last year. I eventually came around to @nweathington 's point of view. Though if this category was continuing next year I'd say update it to best embellisher to be more technically correct. But then what would you call the pencillers?

nweathington

playdohsrepublic said:

ut then what would you call the pencillers?

Penciler is a pretty good description. I think last year I suggested two options: 1) Going with three categories—Best Penciler for artists who don't ink their own work, Best Cartoonist (or simply Best Artist) for those who do both, and Best Inker for those who ink other artists’ pencils. 2) Simply combining the categories into one category—Best Penciler/Inker (individual or team).

I think Option 2 is probably best, because it's easier for people to get their heads around. It's how the Eisner Awards handles it. You don't have to guess at who did what, only judge the final result on the page. Some inkers got a bit huffy when the Best Inker category was dropped from the Eisners, but how can you expect a jury usually composed entirely of non-artists to judge an inker’s ability when they can't see the pencils before the inker does their job and compare them to the finished artwork?

alienal

Just listened yesterday and didn't have time to post anything. Thanks for doing all the organizing and tabulating MURD!
So, after thinking about it the one thing that stands out to me is there should be a way to get a wider selection of nominees. Look at it this way: In the past there were probably at least 5 (usually more like up to 6 or 7) CGS hosts voting and then us listeners still only got 1 nominee. Now, there's only 3 CGS hosts voting and the listeners still (in most cases) only get 1 nominee? Perhaps the rule should be there have to be at least 5 nominees (whether nominated by CGS or the listeners) per category or something. As someone said above (maybe bralinator?) this should be about getting more recognition for some books and creators so we don't get the same thing year after year. People do have their favorites and that's okay, but it's good to hear about the new blood, too.
The digital first-thing is an interesting problem, but if it was added as a category for nominations I would skip it since I don't read anything digitally FIRST. My impression is that the CGS hosts (except Deemer maybe, and he didn't nominate this year) don't either.
As for the penciller/inker/embellisher/etc.-thing. Yeah, I think nweathington's Option 2 is the best bet for a category next year. Best Penciler/Inker (individual or team). I like that...
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl/Howard the Duck: Just commenting a little on what I read above... I read the first couple of issues of BOTH volumes of both titles and they just didn't enough to keep me going with them. I got perhaps only a few chuckles out of Howard and while Squirrel Girl was good, outlandish fun it didn't really interest me enough to continue ordering it. Plus, the font size of the USG is small and when I tried to read the kind of "invisible" stuff at the bottom of each page my eyes began to hurt. I guess I'm getting old...
...and hey, what happened to my PREVIEWS nomination? I guess I'll have to mount a write-in campaign. ;-) Maybe I'll shoot for the best graphic collection category this time.

JaceTheComicSource

I felt the same about the number of nominees. The first CGS episode I ever listened to was a "Best of" episode and there was a big gang in the studio and it was great fun and got me hooked on CGS. I immediately went back and started listening from episode #1. It makes me sad to see such a small turn out even for a Best of episode. Big props to Chris and Murd for their efforts in keeping CGS alive.

matchkitJOHN

alienal said:

Just listened yesterday and didn't have time to post anything. Thanks for doing all the organizing and tabulating MURD!
So, after thinking about it the one thing that stands out to me is there should be a way to get a wider selection of nominees. Look at it this way: In the past there were probably at least 5 (usually more like up to 6 or 7) CGS hosts voting and then us listeners still only got 1 nominee. Now, there's only 3 CGS hosts voting and the listeners still (in most cases) only get 1 nominee? Perhaps the rule should be there have to be at least 5 nominees (whether nominated by CGS or the listeners) per category or something. As someone said above (maybe bralinator?) this should be about getting more recognition for some books and creators so we don't get the same thing year after year. People do have their favorites and that's okay, but it's good to hear about the new blood, too.
The digital first-thing is an interesting problem, but if it was added as a category for nominations I would skip it since I don't read anything digitally FIRST. My impression is that the CGS hosts (except Deemer maybe, and he didn't nominate this year) don't either.
As for the penciller/inker/embellisher/etc.-thing. Yeah, I think nweathington's Option 2 is the best bet for a category next year. Best Penciler/Inker (individual or team). I like that...
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl/Howard the Duck: Just commenting a little on what I read above... I read the first couple of issues of BOTH volumes of both titles and they just didn't enough to keep me going with them. I got perhaps only a few chuckles out of Howard and while Squirrel Girl was good, outlandish fun it didn't really interest me enough to continue ordering it. Plus, the font size of the USG is small and when I tried to read the kind of "invisible" stuff at the bottom of each page my eyes began to hurt. I guess I'm getting old...
...and hey, what happened to my PREVIEWS nomination? I guess I'll have to mount a write-in campaign. ;-) Maybe I'll shoot for the best graphic collection category this time.

They could also maybe invite some other friends of the show podcasters who don't do their own Best of 2015 show and can add input. I like the minimum of 5 nominees if possible.

I really enjoyed the show. It creates a nice shopping list of things I may have missed.

Dan_in_WI

I just saw this quote attributed to Axel Alonso on the webs: (He was being asked about DC's Rebirth)
Alonso: All publishers should make informed decisions based on what will strengthen themselves, but also the direct market as a whole. A healthy DC is good for the industry, and we wish them well, but as [SVP for Sales and Publishing] David Gabriel, pointed out, based on Diamond Comics industry analysis, the last time DC "held the line at $2.99," retail sales dropped 24% from the prior month, and 21% from the prior year. We hope that doesn't happen again.

Am I to interpret that to say DC sold fewer books?!?! That makes no sense. Sure the profit margin may go down but he doesn't seem to be talking profit margin.
Either way I guess we won't see Marvel follow suit anytime soon on price point based on this quote.

compsolut

Just out of curiosity, will a ballot be created for voting, or do I need to go back and listen to the list of nominations to cast my votes? Sorry if I skipped over something!

compsolut

compsolut said:

Just out of curiosity, will a ballot be created for voting, or do I need to go back and listen to the list of nominations to cast my votes? Sorry if I skipped over something!

Or I could scroll all the way to the bottom of the recent discussion feed!

http://thecomicforums.vanillaforums.com/discussion/3709/the-cgs-best-of-2015-awards-the-final-vote-deadline-sunday-3-13-16#latest

penn2k

Just a thought for next year ( 2016 ): Would it make it easier on Adam if we set-up a SurveyMonkey site ( or something similar ) to handle the official voting online? It might save a ton of time and tabulation. Sorry I'm bringing this up after-the-fact, but I just researched SurveyMonkey for work, and it would be cheap $$$ to run the voting for a month or two.

nweathington

penn2k said:

Just a thought for next year ( 2016 ): Would it make it easier on Adam if we set-up a SurveyMonkey site ( or something similar ) to handle the official voting online? It might save a ton of time and tabulation. Sorry I'm bringing this up after-the-fact, but I just researched SurveyMonkey for work, and it would be cheap $$$ to run the voting for a month or two.

I think Adam actually enjoys the tabulation process.

David_D

nweathington said:

penn2k said:

Just a thought for next year ( 2016 ): Would it make it easier on Adam if we set-up a SurveyMonkey site ( or something similar ) to handle the official voting online? It might save a ton of time and tabulation. Sorry I'm bringing this up after-the-fact, but I just researched SurveyMonkey for work, and it would be cheap $$$ to run the voting for a month or two.

I think Adam actually enjoys the tabulation process.