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Politics in Comics - the good, the bad and the ugly

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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200

    Mr_Cosmic said:

    Read Hellblazer #1. He left the States and headed back to the U.K. when, as he says, "a racist, short-figered, failed meat salesman began circling the White House.."

    Sigh.

    Which is exactly what the character of John Constantine would say if you've been reading the character since 1984, seeing as how he was created by a comics creator who hated Thatcher with every fiber of his being and imbued the character with that.

    There's political writing and there's character cohesiveness.

    John not hating a rich capitalist would like Foolkiller making pals with that doofus swimmer who trashed a bathroom.
    I would think post Brexit U.K. would horrible for him as well. Poor John.
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    Brack said:


    Surely you understand that it can become annoying when one political bent is constant represented negatively in Marvel's line.

    Yeah it's great! A rare instance of the media not dedicating equal time to points of view that are inherently dumb.

    "Rare" is a stretch. Objectivity doesn't exist in media.
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    At this point the Marvel bias is just so blatant and in-your-face that you either have to be a dyed-in-the-wool leftist ideologue or a total political virgin not to notice it. The bigoted smeering of conservative/traditional/whites is just off the charts. I love how people try to justify it by bending over backwards. Meanwhile everyone has seen countless examples of how even the vaguest perceived slight against any other group earns embarrassingly profuse apologies.

    The ironic thing is that, of course, almost all the top Marvel writers and editors are straight white males. But they're a weird variety of this type in that they seem to depise their own demographic to an almost pathological extent, taking every opportunity to make the culture they grew up in seem almost uniformly evil and bad. This self-hate phenomenon has been known to accompany the fall of civilizations, and certainly Marvel Comics' recent behavior should be seen in the context of the overall decline of Big Two comics in general. When Rome overextended its empire it began to make anyone it could find an official Roman citizen, if only to bolster the tax revenue. As Marvel Comics falls, it frantically tries to find elusive "new readers" in other demographics, insulting its core readership in the process.

    I think the traditionalist Marvel reader at this point really, really has to make a hell of a lot of mental compromises to be able to endure this kind of abuse. Of course, it's been this way for awhile, and we can all eagerly point to the marketing stunts and replacement heroes of the '90s. But now every stunt is accompanied with hamfisted political overtures and emotional blackmail as an attempt to coerce consent from the readership. "You balked when Bucky became Cap? Well you damn well better be on board for Falcap, or else yer a racist!" "You had a problem when we didn't know what to do with Thor for years in the mid-2000s and canceled his title? Well now you're gonna damn well support a female 'Thor' book, or else yer a sexist!"

    To be honest I've actually enjoyed a heck of a lot of what Marvel's done over the last half-decade, stunts included, but it is the political barbs that turn me off. I've bought and mostly liked (sometimes LOVED) Jason Aaron's Thor, G. Willow Wilson's Ms. Marvel, Nick Spencer's Cap, Bendis's Iron Man, to name a few. But when Kitty Pryde becomes "Star-Lord" and we have to have a whole subplot about why it's okay for her to use that name? When an otherwise solid origin story for RiRi Williams is interrupted by the news that (for a time at least) she will be "Iron MAN"? When Jason Aaron devotes an entire issue to characterizing any critics as simply sexist neanderthals? I'm sorry, but there is no earthly (or Asgardian) reason why Jane Foster would want to take on her ex-boyfriend's birthname as her first name, as if that had anything to do with his powers or status as the deity of thunder. It is all simply trolling and white knighting on the part of these writers who need to try and expiate their white male guilt.

    And G. Willow Wilson will have Kamala Khan punch Donald Trump in the face, but when will Ms. Marvel ever fight (or even reference) the actual extremist faction of her own religious community who kill Muslims (and others) across the world? Never. A Republican politician who "says mean things sometimes" is apparently infinitely more troubling than thousands of ISIS murderers committing acts of genocide all over the planet. Possibly Ms. Wilson is legitimately fearful for her life in her own community if she did a story about ISIS. Well, she can call herself careful and she can call herself liberal and she can call herself a good writer, but she can't call herself particularly brave. Yeah, probably she would run into trouble in her own community if she took a stand against Muslim extremism. I've known other American Muslims who say that they want to speak out but are afraid to because their own relatives would disown them.

    That is the real world that we live in, but we can read Marvel Comics and pretend that really the greatest threat in urban environments are white male purse-snatchers. Because that, honestly, is a typical crime-fighting scene that I've seen more times than any other in recent years. The hero is shown stopping some typical crime in the neighborhood, and it tends to be goofy looking white guys snatching a lady's purse. Because it's still 1955, right? The explanation for this is obvious. The creators involved are too scared to show many criminals that aren't white. In other words they are too afraid to confront reality, and in fact do not care to portray the real threats to African-American communities in particular. Hint: not white guys stealing purses. It's just too uncomfortable for them.

    I am not a Republican, not a conservative, not a Trump supporter, and honestly not even THAT troubled by any of this. But it is an obviously biased feature of what's going on. I can read it the same way I can read old FF comics from the '60s where Reed downtalks Sue. It's unfortunate that prejudices exact, but they do, and oftentimes you can glimpse the art in spite of them. If you haven't been noticing all this bigotry against approximately half the country, maybe you should ask yourself why. If even the tiniest micro-aggression was made against any other type of person, you'd notice it.

    If you look at many of these writers' Twitter feeds, you'll see that they're uniformly obsessed with hating Republicans. Tom Breevort, Mark Waid, Dan Slott -- these are extremely hateful, arrogant, bigoted, egotistical people. They feel the need to take every opportunity to boost their own self-esteem up by knocking other people down and competing to see who's the most trendy. It's the sort of people they are. We rarely hear about how insulting they are, because most of the press and most of the podcasters share the same biases. Why don't people notice it more? I face-palmed when, during a discussion of Preacher, "political correctness" was discussed as just "something that was big in the '90s." Well, if ya don't notice it anymore, maybe you've gone along with the program.

    My big take away from here:

    Marvel is falling?!
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    hauberk said:


    Perhaps that's because the extreme left isn't really all that left and the extreme right is regularly loudly spewing things not fit for polite company? Conservative thought isn't what we see today. We see something else dressed up as conservative thought while true traditional conservatives get disparaged as RINOs. That's, in my opinion, why they end up being the butt of jokes.

    That's what I gather. And what my Republican friends gather as well. (I live on Staten Island. It's pretty much all Republican here)

    However, I wouldn't mind hearing your perspective on this, @bralinator .

    Though if you've already stated your ideas regarding this point, you can link me to it instead! I

    (For the record... I used to be a Young Republican. I did it as a Favor to my pal. That got me into events such as Parties for Rudy Giuliani. Good times.)


    Part (but not all) of this is that conservatives are often waging their battles from the negative side of the argument in matters of society & culture. No to this, no to that, etc. It is far easier to gain acceptance when you are offering something and saying yes you can. People's natural instinct is to go against someone telling them they cannot do something. The sides flip when it comes to gun control, which may be one reason (of many) why liberals have had milder success than they have had in other areas.

    From a comic book perspective, the creative arts (movies, tv, music, down to comic books) are generally populated with liberals. I am not surprised that books get political or push boundaries. I think the audience for comic books at least is more liberal than not - though I do think the publishers and groups pushing for more diversity in books often overestimate how liberal the reading audience actually is. The publishers, after the USA today articles and such can at times back away from some of their more liberal ideas as well - "cough...DC...cough..."

    The audience being more liberal is by its own nature going to support these liberal creators and their beliefs.

    Orson Scott Card got booted off Superman before he wrote a page because of his views. A Nick Spencer can tweet his views and insert them into his books and get a second Capt America book published. If it became public that Alex Ross painted a Hillary vampire biting the Statue of Liberty painting, does anyone really believe the big two would give him anymore work? Outside of artists being accused of over sexualizing women in their work, I am unsure if someone with a liberal bent could at this time get kicked off a book for their views because a majority of the audience and marketplace are liberal.

    I'm not certain with the "conservative waging war from the negative side of things." Let's look at one Colin Kaepernick. I don't agree with his sitting during the national anthem, but that's his constitutional right. I DO have an issue with the bullshit narrative that police are just lynch mobs with badges. This is largely from the media driven narrative created from the tail end of shootings. I'm not saying there aren't bad apples in law enforcement because they exist in EVERY profession. The media coverage is focusing on the tiny percentage of police/minority shootings & magnifying it as a norm. It's easy to do because in all honesty, unless they need one, how often are interactions with law enforcement positive?

    BLM either started or got the national stage when Mike Brown was killed. Brown, not only was a criminal to begin with, but was killed following assaulting the officer.

    Now Kaepernick is looking for accountability, but from the officer, not the Mike Browns. The incident was investigated & there was no wrongdoing on the officer's part found. One of after effects is the officer is no longer in law enforcement, or at least in Ferguson. So, what Kaepernick is really looking for is "social accountability" instead of "legal accountability".

    The shooting in MN where the girlfriend decided to live stream. I don't know what happened before she live streamed. Neither do any of the other people who are looking for that officer's head on a stick. Rather then wait for more details about what we don't know, we fill in the blanks with what we THINK happened & that becomes the narrative. Instead of what happened.

    The RNC had a night about law enforcement. The DNC had a night with mothers of police shooting victims. Which came from this on the negative end?

    My wife is a Democrat. She refuses to vote for Hillary. A friend of ours, a straight ticket Democrat, told my wife she's "selfishly stupid if she doesn't vote Hillary." For a party that's supposed to be openminded to free thought & not discriminate, comments like that sounds exactly like what the GOP would say.

    Here's another example. People have told me I should vote Hillary (which will NEVER happen) to be apart of history will the first female president. If I said I won't vote for her because she's a woman, I'd get labeled a sexist. Why is one acceptable & the other isn't.

    How's this one. I recently told someone wish companies like Marvel stopped pumping their tires about hiring minority talent. Not because I don't think they should work, but because I don't buy books based on the composition of its creative staff, but on the product itself. By spotlighting it, Marvel makes it a big deal. I was told it's because of my "white" privilege (despite having olive skin). On the other hand, if I said I wouldn't buy a book because of its minority creators, I'm a racist.

    I was raised with a strong GOP/conservative paternal side, but educated at a liberal college. I'm registered Independent because I find both parties heavily flawed. I vote for candidates not parties.

    There is a heavy liberal/Democrat theme in the media. Any objective person can see it. Social media is the same. 85-90% of the people on my Twitter line are Democrats. There's a clear shredding if you go against the narrative. Again, not very "openminded to free thought."

    I definitely fall into the "I don't want to hear from celebrities & athletes who to vote for" camp. I look to these people for entertainment, not to direct my point of view.

    I have GOP friends & Democrat friends. I try to avoid political conversation with both because they'll downplay the flaws of their own candidate & party while exaggerating the flaws of the other side.

    The same friend I mentioned above told my wife voting independent (which is something I'm heavily leaning toward) is just giving the vote to Trump (though we all know Hillary is winning this election) & our country isn't ready for a multi-party government. I contend this election is the perfect example we are ready. How many people voting for either candidate is really doing so because he/she believes in that candidate verses those "just voting against the other candidate" voters?

    In the fucking 21st century, the greatest country in the world seems to be as fractured with self interest groups as ever. I have a theory they like it that way...but that's for another post.

    M
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    edited September 2016
    I also think conservatives seem to come from a negative because sometimes there's reality in what they present.

    I'd love for everyone to come to this great country & get the same opportunities I have. I just want those people to get here legally & be legal citizens.

    People should get health care, but I shouldn't have to contribute $1400 a month for my family of 4 AND to other people's health care.

    Gun control is great. I'm an advocate for it. Here's the thing, there IS gun control. What some States lack are magazine size restrictions. FL, CA, & TX are 3 states where you could own a 20 round magazine for your handgun.

    "No fly, no buy" is great. Did you know if the FBI has "Joe Swanson" as a possible witness or person of interest in their system, that puts Joe on a No Fly list? There's nothing criminal, but it takes months to get straighten out. Meanwhile, Joe cannot legally buy firearms.

    No one wants a terrorist attack. Reality is, refugees like from Syria are difficult to vet. Numbers are good a percentage will be terrorists. Just letting them in doesn't just cost us as citizens, but puts us at risk.

    Snowden will more then likely be portrayed as a hero & patriot in the movie. Truth is, if you didn't think the government was monitoring us, you should feel more foolish then pissed. This is coming from someone whose no doubt been on the watchlist at some point. Chances are, those most pissed have no reason to be concerned.

    I cannot imagine any US citizen not wanting to feel completely safe & secured. The problem is, you can't have 100% security AND a 100% freedom. They share from the same pie chart. Examples upon request.

    Democrats wage war from a negative side too. I keep hearing about how if Trump becomes President, there will be concentration camps, the lower class will be pinched as the upper class gets massive tax breaks. The country will become like Nazi Germany & he'll launch nuclear weapons on everyone else on a whim.

    On the flip sided, I hear those same people claim Obama could do more but the GOP controlled Congress prevents him.

    I've asked several people how Trump, whose hated by both parties, can do anything he wants, but Obama is handicuffed by the GOP. No one can give a solid answer. Don't get me wrong, Trump should NOT be president. The pluses are that he'll be more handicuffed then any other president & at most (baring an impeachment) he's out in 4 years (Hillary without question is in for 8 years). Nazi America can't happen because unlike Germany during Hitler's rise, the US government has a checks & balances system.

    Trump's flaws are plastered all over the place; as they should be. If you bring up Hillary's flaws, they are downplayed or I hear "everyone makes mistakes.

    Sounds like a lot of bull shit double talk to me.

    M
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Tonebone said:

    There is NOTHING more divisive in the US than politics.

    Moon Knight's outfit is white.

    :)


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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Torchsong said:

    Tonebone said:

    There is NOTHING more divisive in the US than politics.

    Moon Knight's outfit is white.

    :)


    Racist.
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    aquatroy said:

    Tonebone said:

    Brack said:


    It all continues to demonstrate that Marvel writers definitely pick on the extreme right more than they do the extreme left, probably because the extreme right is currently more politically focused than the extreme left. Conservative thought is often the butt of jokes because of the political leanings of the writers themselves and due to the general lack of subtlety in superhero comics

    The main reason they don't pick on the extreme left is that the extreme left is p. much non-existent in the US. It's a two party system where both parties are to the right, the question is just how far to the right..
    Holy hell, man... what?? The left is alive and well, here. Obama and Clinton are far to the left, Sanders is a declared socialist... even the Republicans in the Senate are mostly centrists. Most of the entertainment industry is left-leaning, as well as most "journalists", newspapers, and universities. I am a conservative, and feel very much outnumbered on a daily basis.

    That being said, talking about politics on these forums feel kinda weird and icky. I fear it will burn the forums down, if left unchecked. There is NOTHING more divisive in the US than politics.
    The American two party system is one party (D) gleefully running into the burning building of socialism. The other (R) just taking a leisurely stroll into that building.

    imo
    I agree, although I think the (R)'s are more like fast-walking, olympic style. :)
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    Tonebone said:

    Brack said:


    It all continues to demonstrate that Marvel writers definitely pick on the extreme right more than they do the extreme left, probably because the extreme right is currently more politically focused than the extreme left. Conservative thought is often the butt of jokes because of the political leanings of the writers themselves and due to the general lack of subtlety in superhero comics

    The main reason they don't pick on the extreme left is that the extreme left is p. much non-existent in the US. It's a two party system where both parties are to the right, the question is just how far to the right..
    Holy hell, man... what?? The left is alive and well, here. Obama and Clinton are far to the left, Sanders is a declared socialist... even the Republicans in the Senate are mostly centrists. Most of the entertainment industry is left-leaning, as well as most "journalists", newspapers, and universities. I am a conservative, and feel very much outnumbered on a daily basis.

    That being said, talking about politics on these forums feel kinda weird and icky. I fear it will burn the forums down, if left unchecked. There is NOTHING more divisive in the US than politics.
    I'm sorry, but Obama and Clinton are both center - right (Clinton especially with the "3rd Way" her Husband did in reaction to people thinking the Democratic Party had drifted too far left). Sanders was a true Left politician (but still kinda centrist if you think globally).

    I am about the most lefty guy on the board, and Obama was FAR too right wing for me with him adopting ideas from the Heritage Foundation, still using aggressive military campaigns, etc...

    We have very different ideas of what left and right are, especially if you are an America Only person...the British right wing party is further left than even Bernie Sanders.

    This just means you're hard-core. Just because you are to the left of Obama and Hillary doesn't mean they aren't left, Corey. And Hillary is factually far more liberal than Bill was. That's just a historical fact. Bill was a moderate.

    According to even the Huffington Post: Hillary Clinton is a progressive democrat, despite what you may have heard. Hillary's positions on immigration, gun violence, and abortion rights are all strongly progressive, left-wing positions. Unless you think purely left means wide-open borders, zero guns allowed, and tax-payer funded abortions for any age, any reason, and at any time.

    Clinton is considered one of the most liberal Congress members during her time in the Senate and her record was more liberal than 70% of the Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85% of all other members. Barack Obama was nearby with a record more liberal than 82% of all members — but not more liberal than Clinton who is even more liberal than Obama on healthcare, minimum wage, marriage equality and several other raisons d'être on the left (including expanding government, raising taxes, and enriching themselves).

    The DailyKos even created this helpful diagram in case you disagree:

    image


    Hillary rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. As liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama.

    So maybe your definition of "left wing" or "liberal" is even more extreme than the commonly accepted definition or vernacular, but just because they are "too right wing" for you doesn't mean Obama and Clinton are centrist moderates, it just means you're so liberal you'd never be able to get elected in national politics. From my perspective on the right, guys like Romney, McCain, Graham, McConnell, Ryan, W. Bush et al, have move to the left on big spending and big government and many social issues, so it probably works both ways.

    Much like I would prefer a republican party that followed the ideology of Ron Paul on liberty, monetary, states-rights, fiscal, and social issues, he's FAR too right or even libertarian to ever be considered anything but a kook on the right, but if your brackets are Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul, then yes, Hillary and Barack are to the right of Bernie, but far left of Dr. Paul.
    I like the chart, but I would move Kennedy much closer to the center, and McCain as well... McCain is not very conservative, when it gets right down to it.
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    Tonebone said:

    Brack said:


    It all continues to demonstrate that Marvel writers definitely pick on the extreme right more than they do the extreme left, probably because the extreme right is currently more politically focused than the extreme left. Conservative thought is often the butt of jokes because of the political leanings of the writers themselves and due to the general lack of subtlety in superhero comics

    The main reason they don't pick on the extreme left is that the extreme left is p. much non-existent in the US. It's a two party system where both parties are to the right, the question is just how far to the right..
    Holy hell, man... what?? The left is alive and well, here. Obama and Clinton are far to the left, Sanders is a declared socialist... even the Republicans in the Senate are mostly centrists. Most of the entertainment industry is left-leaning, as well as most "journalists", newspapers, and universities. I am a conservative, and feel very much outnumbered on a daily basis.

    That being said, talking about politics on these forums feel kinda weird and icky. I fear it will burn the forums down, if left unchecked. There is NOTHING more divisive in the US than politics.
    I'm sorry, but Obama and Clinton are both center - right (Clinton especially with the "3rd Way" her Husband did in reaction to people thinking the Democratic Party had drifted too far left). Sanders was a true Left politician (but still kinda centrist if you think globally).

    I am about the most lefty guy on the board, and Obama was FAR too right wing for me with him adopting ideas from the Heritage Foundation, still using aggressive military campaigns, etc...

    We have very different ideas of what left and right are, especially if you are an America Only person...the British right wing party is further left than even Bernie Sanders.

    I have no need to think globally... this election is not global. Concerning US politics, Obama and Clinton are both far left. We will just have to disagree on this point.

    The thing is, they talk a good "centrist", "across the aisle" game when in front of the media, but the media doesn't report the true faces of these guys. You have to dig beyond CNN and MSNBC to hear what they really think. They just put on a good "bipartisan" face for the people who don't dig that far. Hell, even thier autobiographies and memoirs paint them as far-left, but only conservative talk show host read those. :)
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