Episode 1621 Talkback - Comic Talk - Improv Edition
Adam_Murdough
Posts: 506
We got Comic Talk--right here on Comic Geek Speak!--with a capital 'C' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for Peter Rios, who joins us on this episode for a lively chat about about our recent CGS group outing to see his production of 'The Music Man'! After that, we engage in a bit of Shop Talk and Con Talk, congratulate Tom King, mourn Gene Wilder, question whether rumors of 'the death of comics journalism' might be greatly exaggerated, and just generally let it alllll hang out. See what good can come of our original episode plans falling through! (56:55)
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As for the "Death of Comics Journalism" article by Augie, I think Peter got a little too bogged down in the semantics of the word "journalism" and missed the larger point. Granted, he'd only been able to skim the article during the broadcast, but now that I've read it myself, I think Augie made some great points and observations. According to the piece, It seems most of the shift to other media is purely an economic decision, reasoning that movies, tv shows, and video games will garner more "clicks" (and ad revenue) than a pure comics focus would (and certainly did at one time). Oddly, after laying out an essentially airtight case for why it's happening, De Blieck goes on to bemoan the very trend he (I assumed) understood. I don't think it's a matter of the big comic book sites just deciding to return to their roots. That genie is out of the bottle...just as it is with many of the larger "comic book" conventions. The "Pied Piper" of fat ad revenue checks has motivated many to abandon their more modest comics-only approach...so maybe it (once again) will fall to the amateur bloggers and podcasters to take up the slack when it comes to focusing exclusively on our beloved four-color wonders.
All of these were first edition hardcovers in wonderful condition and I didn't pay any more than $8 each. They also seem to have a lot of recently published comics that a LCS may sell out of. But there's also a TON of stuff in those stores so it's crazy fun to find hidden gems and easy to miss a lot of items. Good to hear Peter "The Rios" Rios again. I'm also glad to hear his theater work seems to be going really well. Thanks for the episode!
They replaced Wizard magazine as the go to destinations for unique in depth coverage of comic books, featuring long form interviews pre podcast audio and video features etc. They also helped promoted tons of creator owned and indie stuff, because the books were good and deserved attention.
They both cultivated biz relationships with the comic publishers but also kept a level of journalistic integrity when it came to reviewing books, or disagreeing with biz practices.
Both sites were threatened with a lack of access at different times by DC and Marvel, but the sites stuck to their guns carried on and eventually Marvel and DC would come around and again work with the sites. Back then the guys could call the folks in charge and hash it out. I know because I was involved in such a negotiation.
Then Marvel was bought by Disney and DC became a more important part of Warner's Biz plans and the relationships had new levels of management filters that made it harder to cover what was going on, and less fun for guys like Jonah and Matt.
Also both sites eventually were sold and the new bosses wanted more film & TV coverage, and more clickbait story-items versus the old way of covering all of comics.not just the big players.
Matt left RAMA in 09. Doran is still there,and Jonah sold CBR this year . The new owners of CBR are content to re-write press releases and eliminate columns by smart reporters like Augie, Brigid Alverson and others.
Other sites continue like Heid McDonald's Beat, Comics Alliance , etc. but you can't argue that they didn't have the clout that Rama & CBR had in their heyday.
BTW- The All Knowing Rios complained that TWO MORROWS should be getting nominated and eisners for their comics journalism. Good news THEY DO and always have won or been at least nominated. 3 two morrows mags were nominated in this journo-periodical category. Maybe they split the votes, because Hogan's Alley won this year?
I know I'm not a Journalist (sniff-sob), but I did do a fun podcast interview with Matt Brady about leaving Rama,
http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/2015/02/matt-brady-and-secret-history-of.html
and when Jonah has a chance to fully relax, step back and have more perspective I think we'll be having a similar conversation on Word Balloon.
Fun hearing Peter back on the show again with his thoughtful takes on the state of comic journalism. I can't add much to the discussion other than hopefully some new blood who are interested in more than copying press releases will rise to the occasion.
And @Adam_Murdough - please use the most affordable postage option you're comfortable with. Just happy to have been the victor this round :)
Learn some listening comprehension.
Fact: when the Eisner changed their description to include the word "Journalism", Twomorrows HASN'T won in that category.
Best Comics-Related Periodical/Journalism
2008 Newsarama, produced by Matt Brady and Michael Doran
2009 Comic Book Resources, produced by Jonah Weiland
2010 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon
2011 Comic Book Resources
2012 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
2013 The Comics Reporter, edited by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
2014 Comic Book Resources
2015 Comics Alliance, edited by Andy Khouri, Caleb Goellner, Andrew Wheeler, & Joe Hughes, www.comicsalliance.com
2016 Hogan’s Alley, edited by Tom Heintjes
All websites. One book.
Suck it.
You know, when I first heard the title of Augie’s post, “The End of Big Comic Book Journalism,” my first reaction was, “How can it be the end if it hasn’t really started yet?” But that’s not being entirely fair. There are many different types of journalism, and limiting the conversation to what most people consider “real” journalism—that is to say prestige or “watchdog” journalism—which may be what Peter was doing, is probably doing a bit of a disservice to CBR, Newsarama, and their ilk. At least, doing a disservice to what they used to be. Granted, even at their best, there was precious little of that level of journalism focused on the comic book industry even before the buyouts and changes those sites have gone through, but it was there if you looked for it. As much as I hate to admit it, even Bleeding Cool has tried to raise its game once or twice. But as Augie pointed out, that’s not where the money’s at—it’s difficult and time-consuming to produce and the reward is negligible. But I’ve always said that the work I do is for a small niche of a niche audience.
Though I greatly appreciate Peter’s praise of TwoMorrows, I don’t really think what we do is prestige journalism either for the most part, though we do dabble in it from time to time. That’s not to say we don’t put the time and effort into what we do to make it as professional as possible, it’s just a different type of journalism. And as John mentioned, we’ve had our share of nominations (none for me personally :( ), and we have split the vote on more than one occasion. There was even one year back in the early 2000s, before the online sites were even considered, where we had, I think, three of the four nominations in the category (Best Comic-Related Periodical, I think it was called then). They removed the category from the ballot the next year.
I have no doubt that Op/Ed pieces will continue to thrive elsewhere—everyone on the internet has an opinion, and most seem more than willing to share it. But “real” journalism—the kind that explores important topics (like, say, sexual harrassment of female employees in the DC offices) in a meaningful and timely way—is going to be difficult for the lone bloggers to pull off.
Proof that John has an axe to grind. Can't help but feel the need to rebutt what he thinks he's heard. Should've just posted this instead of trying to argue against what wasn't said. I'd "respect" him more.
Or not. :wink:
He must be voting for Trump. :blush:
2000 Comic Book Artist (TwoMorrows)
2002 Comic Book Artist (TwoMorrows)
2004 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
2005 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
2006 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
2007 Alter Ego, edited by Roy Thomas (TwoMorrows)
I include the cooke top shelf years because its the same magazine, and follows the TM template, cause Cooke was a TM founding member.
ever notice how multiple winners in other categories like best writer stop being grant morrison because they've already won a few?
the full story is helpful. at least that's what my real journalism friends tell me
Best Comics-Related Periodical/Publication
Funny - I don't see the word Journalism.
Again. Never said they didn't get noms. Never said they didn't win.
My point stands.
Comics Journalism died when TCJ gave up covering comics in about 1996 after Diamond owned everything. The websites that cover comics print press releases and do promo interviews with people. THAT AIN'T JOURNALISM.
Here and there a disgruntled creator will tell a story to someone about what is going on, but for the most part, comics chug along with people who are happy to pass along what the PR folks give them. Want proof? Which of these "journalists" dug into the dark underbelly of DragonCon before the mainstream media found out about it...and a hell of a lot of people in the comics press knew about what was going on...but wanted those press passes so they could post pics of the cosplayers!
And interviews are journalism? Great! How about my coverage of Paul Fricke's battle with PTSD after his near fatal accident? Is that journalism? No, it's an interview to promote his kids' comics website that took a turn into a shared experience. Journalism is work, digging into things and breaking stories.
Sorry kids, but asking Alex Alonso how great the new Avengers crossover will be isn't journalism.
I need to find a rival...well other than Marc Maron for scoring Obama when I have been inviting him on for YEARS to talk about his love of 70's Marvel comics.
actually... it is
Journalism is the work and distribution of reports on the interaction of events, facts, ideas, and people that are the "news of the day" and that informs society to at least some degree. The word applies to the occupation (professional or not), the methods of gathering information, and the organizing literary styles.
and Peter the periodical category- Comics Jouranlisim is what monthly-daily sites mags do.
You can debate the quality, which was exactly what Augie's point was (and he again was speaking specifically about comic news websites, not magazines)
But you can't deny that they do meet this very least minimal definition of journalism.
Rios-The Obtuse Goose
I’m just wondering what comic fans expect or want from the comic press. Since no one can make a living solely by writing about the comic book industry, what is reasonable to expect from the comic press when the people writing for it are doing so as a hobby (or at best a side job), are getting little pay for it, and do not have the legal protection that comes with working for a large media outlet?
John, on the other hand, does listen. And butts in negatively too often which got him chased away from the 11 O'clock and CGS forums a few years back. He's the epitome of the 'Well, actually...' guy. And then will plug his interviewees ad nauseum. (As proven above). Can't get through a podcast panel without name dropping his 'friends'.
Solitaire Rose referenced when John decided to make fun of Jamie D and Pants on an episode of his other podcast and it got back to me. So I called him on it. Jamie even thanked me for doing so.
John also tried to butt in during the Mike debacle somehow feeling John was owed an explanation as to what happened behind the scenes.
I also know John's biggest issue with some podcasters is that we/they have never invited him on our podcasts. How's that for sour grapes?
The beauty of it is I have it all well documented for anyone to hear/view. Like a true journalist. Lol
All he can say about me is that I'm a dick. I mean seriously, this is news??
:lol:
- All Knowing Obtuse Goose Rios. (Sounds like the new Ever Lovin' Blue Eyed Thing. I'm not mad!) :)
Beyond that, I don’t know. I do know that only a small percentage of comic book fans are interested in comic book history beyond a few specific names and dates. And that probably applies to comic book journalism as well. For every fan I’ve seen complain about Bleeding Cool, I’ve seen ten more post a link to their site. After all, comic books are first and foremost an entertainment medium, and how serious do people want to get with their entertainment?
As for EOC they got mad at me for awhile because I thought Vince in particular was being rude to Paul Gulacy saying his current style sucked compared to his 70's and 80's stuff. I responded that Let's put you 50 year okd self in a 50 yard dash against you 20 yr self and see who would win? They didn't like that.
Months later I was asked to come back to 11 o'clock comics forums by Vince B, but I declined. I see those guys at cons and can honestly say the Wood & Vince are always happy to see me and we have a quick catch chat. As for David, I get a "keeping his distance vibe" from him but, whatever. To each his own.
I do listen to CGS, and Pants knows my love for him in particular will never die.
Jamie D and I had our differences and I'm not proud of it, but we managed to make amends before his death and we both went on our ways.
I'm from sports talk radio( 16 years) , so my comments can get pointed, but they were always said in hopes to get a better level of discussion on the shows beyond "Gee why do those publishers, film studios, or TV networks do that?"
I think podcasters have the access and ability to ask industry people why things happen that fans don't like. I guess some shows would rather just bitch and complain and be satisfied that they don't want to know the answers.
I know Peter listens to my show more than he says, or at least sees my wb posts, cause last year on his twitter feed he went off on why I wasn't jumping on marvel's lack of diversity during the hip hop cover controversy? That happened right after last years san diego con, and frankly I unplugged from comic news for a week cause I was burnt out, had shows in the can to post and needed a web break. I didn't know about the hip hop controversy until a week later when a retailer buddy told me at a casual dinner we were having. Not the first or last time i've seen a "word buffoon" reference in Peter's tweets so he must be aware of what I do or don't do to his satisfaction.
BTW- I then had Sanford Greene on to talk about it, cause he was one of the artists of color doing Marvel hip hop covers and was drawing the Runaways secret wars mini series. Sanford was already booked at the SD con to talk about Runaways, so we also talked about the controversy.
he also recorded a parody of my patreon/paypal commercials on his podcast and further went on how podcasters shouldn't ask listeners for money. so again, he must listen more than he's willing to let on.
I'm sorry I don't follow the BOOK OF RIOS on how to properly podcast.
Despite his claims, I think listeners of all our shows know the real deal.
There are a few sites that stumble onto "news" such as freelancer rates, Diamond policies, etc... Hell, I was able to get why Devil's Due screwed up paying freelancers on an interview with the EIC.
You define journalism as ANYTHING giving information, while I define it as having things such as the principles of truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability - A PR flack isn't going to be objective, impartial, fair or accountable. So, cool, we are just using the word in different contexts.