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Episode 1621 Talkback - Comic Talk - Improv Edition

We got Comic Talk--right here on Comic Geek Speak!--with a capital 'C' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for Peter Rios, who joins us on this episode for a lively chat about about our recent CGS group outing to see his production of 'The Music Man'! After that, we engage in a bit of Shop Talk and Con Talk, congratulate Tom King, mourn Gene Wilder, question whether rumors of 'the death of comics journalism' might be greatly exaggerated, and just generally let it alllll hang out. See what good can come of our original episode plans falling through! (56:55)

Listen here.
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Comments

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    I look forward to hearing it. Hasn't shown up in my podcast feed yet.
  • I've shopped at 2nd and Charles in Dayton, OH, for comics, books, and CDs, and even a t-shirt or two. Longboxes lately have also had as high as $2 for some issues, but also some still as low as 25 cents.
  • i_am_scifii_am_scifi Posts: 781

    I look forward to hearing it. Hasn't shown up in my podcast feed yet.

    I think it's listed as a September 1st release on the website, so it may not hit the RSS til then.
  • PantsPants Posts: 567

    I look forward to hearing it. Hasn't shown up in my podcast feed yet.

    I think it's listed as a September 1st release on the website, so it may not hit the RSS til then.
    That's my bad. It's fixed now.
  • i_am_scifii_am_scifi Posts: 781
    Pants said:

    I look forward to hearing it. Hasn't shown up in my podcast feed yet.

    I think it's listed as a September 1st release on the website, so it may not hit the RSS til then.
    That's my bad. It's fixed now.
    You're never bad, @Pants! You're just drawn that way.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Pants said:

    I look forward to hearing it. Hasn't shown up in my podcast feed yet.

    I think it's listed as a September 1st release on the website, so it may not hit the RSS til then.
    That's my bad. It's fixed now.
    Got it boss ~ thanks @Pants
  • Fun episode...it fit perfectly into that late summer mood of just hanging around and shooting the breeze (with perhaps a cold beverage or two). I love the more structured episodes, of course, but the looser ones are great too. You guys seem to be mindful of a good balance.

    As for the "Death of Comics Journalism" article by Augie, I think Peter got a little too bogged down in the semantics of the word "journalism" and missed the larger point. Granted, he'd only been able to skim the article during the broadcast, but now that I've read it myself, I think Augie made some great points and observations. According to the piece, It seems most of the shift to other media is purely an economic decision, reasoning that movies, tv shows, and video games will garner more "clicks" (and ad revenue) than a pure comics focus would (and certainly did at one time). Oddly, after laying out an essentially airtight case for why it's happening, De Blieck goes on to bemoan the very trend he (I assumed) understood. I don't think it's a matter of the big comic book sites just deciding to return to their roots. That genie is out of the bottle...just as it is with many of the larger "comic book" conventions. The "Pied Piper" of fat ad revenue checks has motivated many to abandon their more modest comics-only approach...so maybe it (once again) will fall to the amateur bloggers and podcasters to take up the slack when it comes to focusing exclusively on our beloved four-color wonders.
  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,131
    We've got a couple of 2nd and Charles' in Colorado as well and I'm torn about what I think about them. I took a bunch of books (3 boxes of assorted paperbacks, hardcovers and comics--hardcovers, trades, and floppies) there one time to trade and they were going to give me $90 for them. I declined and decided to take the comics and trades to Mile High Comics where they traded me close to $200. I donated the novels to my library. However, I had some time to kill one day and swung by and found a few gems:
    imageimageimage

    All of these were first edition hardcovers in wonderful condition and I didn't pay any more than $8 each. They also seem to have a lot of recently published comics that a LCS may sell out of. But there's also a TON of stuff in those stores so it's crazy fun to find hidden gems and easy to miss a lot of items. Good to hear Peter "The Rios" Rios again. I'm also glad to hear his theater work seems to be going really well. Thanks for the episode!
  • 2nd & Charles sounds a bit like Half Price Books, which are all over the place here in the Midwest.
  • Augie's point was CBR & Newsarama were the sites most comic fans have gone to since the net was a bunch of usenet message boards . Both sites were privately owned by hardcore comic fans . Jonah weiland(CBR) Matt Brady and Mike Doran (rama).

    They replaced Wizard magazine as the go to destinations for unique in depth coverage of comic books, featuring long form interviews pre podcast audio and video features etc. They also helped promoted tons of creator owned and indie stuff, because the books were good and deserved attention.

    They both cultivated biz relationships with the comic publishers but also kept a level of journalistic integrity when it came to reviewing books, or disagreeing with biz practices.

    Both sites were threatened with a lack of access at different times by DC and Marvel, but the sites stuck to their guns carried on and eventually Marvel and DC would come around and again work with the sites. Back then the guys could call the folks in charge and hash it out. I know because I was involved in such a negotiation.

    Then Marvel was bought by Disney and DC became a more important part of Warner's Biz plans and the relationships had new levels of management filters that made it harder to cover what was going on, and less fun for guys like Jonah and Matt.

    Also both sites eventually were sold and the new bosses wanted more film & TV coverage, and more clickbait story-items versus the old way of covering all of comics.not just the big players.

    Matt left RAMA in 09. Doran is still there,and Jonah sold CBR this year . The new owners of CBR are content to re-write press releases and eliminate columns by smart reporters like Augie, Brigid Alverson and others.

    Other sites continue like Heid McDonald's Beat, Comics Alliance , etc. but you can't argue that they didn't have the clout that Rama & CBR had in their heyday.

    BTW- The All Knowing Rios complained that TWO MORROWS should be getting nominated and eisners for their comics journalism. Good news THEY DO and always have won or been at least nominated. 3 two morrows mags were nominated in this journo-periodical category. Maybe they split the votes, because Hogan's Alley won this year?

    I know I'm not a Journalist (sniff-sob), but I did do a fun podcast interview with Matt Brady about leaving Rama,

    http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/2015/02/matt-brady-and-secret-history-of.html

    and when Jonah has a chance to fully relax, step back and have more perspective I think we'll be having a similar conversation on Word Balloon.

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Fun episode!

    Fun hearing Peter back on the show again with his thoughtful takes on the state of comic journalism. I can't add much to the discussion other than hopefully some new blood who are interested in more than copying press releases will rise to the occasion.


    And @Adam_Murdough - please use the most affordable postage option you're comfortable with. Just happy to have been the victor this round :)
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited September 2016
    To the Word Buffoon. I never said Twomorrows doesn't get nominated.

    Learn some listening comprehension.

    Fact: when the Eisner changed their description to include the word "Journalism", Twomorrows HASN'T won in that category.

    Best Comics-Related Periodical/Journalism
    2008 Newsarama, produced by Matt Brady and Michael Doran
    2009 Comic Book Resources, produced by Jonah Weiland
    2010 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon
    2011 Comic Book Resources
    2012 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
    2013 The Comics Reporter, edited by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
    2014 Comic Book Resources
    2015 Comics Alliance, edited by Andy Khouri, Caleb Goellner, Andrew Wheeler, & Joe Hughes, www.comicsalliance.com
    2016 Hogan’s Alley, edited by Tom Heintjes

    All websites. One book.

    Suck it.
  • Peter said:

    To the Word Buffoon. I never said Twomorrows doesn't get nominated.

    Learn some listening comprehension.

    Fact: when the Eisner changed their description to include the word "Journalism", Twomorrows HASN'T won in that category.

    Best Comics-Related Periodical/Journalism
    2008 Newsarama, produced by Matt Brady and Michael Doran
    2009 Comic Book Resources, produced by Jonah Weiland
    2010 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon
    2011 Comic Book Resources
    2012 The Comics Reporter, produced by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
    2013 The Comics Reporter, edited by Tom Spurgeon, www.comicsreporter.com
    2014 Comic Book Resources
    2015 Comics Alliance, edited by Andy Khouri, Caleb Goellner, Andrew Wheeler, & Joe Hughes, www.comicsalliance.com
    2016 Hogan’s Alley, edited by Tom Heintjes

    All websites. One book.

    Suck it.

    stay classy san diego. your ignorance as always speaks for itself.
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited September 2016
    image

    Proof that John has an axe to grind. Can't help but feel the need to rebutt what he thinks he's heard. Should've just posted this instead of trying to argue against what wasn't said. I'd "respect" him more.

    Or not. :wink:
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited September 2016



    stay classy san diego. your ignorance as always speaks for itself.

    So posting facts to back up what I said is ignorance?

    He must be voting for Trump. :blush:
  • wordballoonwordballoon Posts: 87
    edited September 2016
    Yeah, but they won 3 times ...

    2000 Comic Book Artist (TwoMorrows)
    2002 Comic Book Artist (TwoMorrows)
    2004 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
    2005 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
    2006 Comic Book Artist, edited by Jon B. Cooke (Top Shelf)
    2007 Alter Ego, edited by Roy Thomas (TwoMorrows)

    I include the cooke top shelf years because its the same magazine, and follows the TM template, cause Cooke was a TM founding member.

    ever notice how multiple winners in other categories like best writer stop being grant morrison because they've already won a few?

    the full story is helpful. at least that's what my real journalism friends tell me
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited September 2016


    the full story is helpful. at least that's what my real journalism friends tell me

    Oh really? Then why did you not list what the award was named when they won?

    Best Comics-Related Periodical/Publication

    Funny - I don't see the word Journalism.

    Again. Never said they didn't get noms. Never said they didn't win.

    My point stands.

    image
  • SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445
    edited September 2016
    Um... calling Wizard "Journalism" is like calling Entertainment Tonight "Hard Hitting News." They were Previews with poop jokes.

    Comics Journalism died when TCJ gave up covering comics in about 1996 after Diamond owned everything. The websites that cover comics print press releases and do promo interviews with people. THAT AIN'T JOURNALISM.

    Here and there a disgruntled creator will tell a story to someone about what is going on, but for the most part, comics chug along with people who are happy to pass along what the PR folks give them. Want proof? Which of these "journalists" dug into the dark underbelly of DragonCon before the mainstream media found out about it...and a hell of a lot of people in the comics press knew about what was going on...but wanted those press passes so they could post pics of the cosplayers!

    And interviews are journalism? Great! How about my coverage of Paul Fricke's battle with PTSD after his near fatal accident? Is that journalism? No, it's an interview to promote his kids' comics website that took a turn into a shared experience. Journalism is work, digging into things and breaking stories.

    Sorry kids, but asking Alex Alonso how great the new Avengers crossover will be isn't journalism.
  • Re: Peter and John: Hmmmm. So I guess there ARE rivalries within the comics podcasting universe. This one obviously has some history. Wish there was some comics journalism to cover it.
  • Re: Peter and John: Hmmmm. So I guess there ARE rivalries within the comics podcasting universe. This one obviously has some history. Wish there was some comics journalism to cover it.

    There's a lot of history here between the two, as John said some things years ago that were mean in a passive aggressive and incredibly unprofessional way about one of the hosts on the show. Since then, both sides have been needling each other and it erupts from time to time.

    I need to find a rival...well other than Marc Maron for scoring Obama when I have been inviting him on for YEARS to talk about his love of 70's Marvel comics.
  • Um... calling Wizard "Journalism" is like calling Entertainment Tonight "Hard Hitting News." They were Previews with poop jokes.

    Comics Journalism died when TCJ gave up covering comics in about 1996 after Diamond owned everything. The websites that cover comics print press releases and do promo interviews with people. THAT AIN'T JOURNALISM.

    Here and there a disgruntled creator will tell a story to someone about what is going on, but for the most part, comics chug along with people who are happy to pass along what the PR folks give them. Want proof? Which of these "journalists" dug into the dark underbelly of DragonCon before the mainstream media found out about it...and a hell of a lot of people in the comics press knew about what was going on...but wanted those press passes so they could post pics of the cosplayers!

    And interviews are journalism? Great! How about my coverage of Paul Fricke's battle with PTSD after his near fatal accident? Is that journalism? No, it's an interview to promote his kids' comics website that took a turn into a shared experience. Journalism is work, digging into things and breaking stories.

    Sorry kids, but asking Alex Alonso how great the new Avengers crossover will be isn't journalism.


    actually... it is

    Journalism is the work and distribution of reports on the interaction of events, facts, ideas, and people that are the "news of the day" and that informs society to at least some degree. The word applies to the occupation (professional or not), the methods of gathering information, and the organizing literary styles.

    and Peter the periodical category- Comics Jouranlisim is what monthly-daily sites mags do.

    You can debate the quality, which was exactly what Augie's point was (and he again was speaking specifically about comic news websites, not magazines)

    But you can't deny that they do meet this very least minimal definition of journalism.



    Rios-The Obtuse Goose
  • Which of these "journalists" dug into the dark underbelly of DragonCon before the mainstream media found out about it...and a hell of a lot of people in the comics press knew about what was going on...but wanted those press passes so they could post pics of the cosplayers!

    My memory is fuzzy here. Obviously the mainstream media didn’t find out about it until after Kramer was arrested in 2000 because of an anonymous tip given to the Atlanta police. Did they cover the allegations of molestation made in ’97, where the victim recanted? Did any of the comic press cover that? I honestly don’t remember. I do know that he never stood trial, and didn't accept a plea bargain until 2013, and I remember a lot of discussion of comic creators threatening to boycott the convention.

    I’m just wondering what comic fans expect or want from the comic press. Since no one can make a living solely by writing about the comic book industry, what is reasonable to expect from the comic press when the people writing for it are doing so as a hobby (or at best a side job), are getting little pay for it, and do not have the legal protection that comes with working for a large media outlet?
  • PeterPeter Posts: 470
    edited September 2016

    Re: Peter and John: Hmmmm. So I guess there ARE rivalries within the comics podcasting universe. This one obviously has some history. Wish there was some comics journalism to cover it.

    Rivalry implies that I give a poop what John does podcast wise. Haven't listened to a full episode since maybe 2006/7? :blush:

    John, on the other hand, does listen. And butts in negatively too often which got him chased away from the 11 O'clock and CGS forums a few years back. He's the epitome of the 'Well, actually...' guy. And then will plug his interviewees ad nauseum. (As proven above). Can't get through a podcast panel without name dropping his 'friends'.

    Solitaire Rose referenced when John decided to make fun of Jamie D and Pants on an episode of his other podcast and it got back to me. So I called him on it. Jamie even thanked me for doing so.

    John also tried to butt in during the Mike debacle somehow feeling John was owed an explanation as to what happened behind the scenes.

    I also know John's biggest issue with some podcasters is that we/they have never invited him on our podcasts. How's that for sour grapes?

    The beauty of it is I have it all well documented for anyone to hear/view. Like a true journalist. Lol

    All he can say about me is that I'm a dick. I mean seriously, this is news??

    :lol:

    - All Knowing Obtuse Goose Rios. (Sounds like the new Ever Lovin' Blue Eyed Thing. I'm not mad!) :)




  • PeterPeter Posts: 470

    I’m just wondering what comic fans expect or want from the comic press. Since no one can make a living solely by writing about the comic book industry, what is reasonable to expect from the comic press when the people writing for it are doing so as a hobby (or at best a side job), are getting little pay for it, and do not have the legal protection that comes with working for a large media outlet?

    Do comic fans want or expect anything? It seems like every time comics journalism comes up its navel gazing. It's in house commentary from a creator or a comics website. As I said I the ep, I didn't read Augie's article. It's the term itself 'Comics Journalism' that kicked off the off of my head commentary. I doubt regular readers even care either way. And for those that do, there hasn't been any major benchmark across the mainstream to legitimize whatever it is Comics Journalism is supposed to be. 99.9% of it is punditry.

  • Peter said:

    Do comic fans want or expect anything? It seems like every time comics journalism comes up its navel gazing. It's in house commentary from a creator or a comics website. As I said I the ep, I didn't read Augie's article. It's the term itself 'Comics Journalism' that kicked off the off of my head commentary. I doubt regular readers even care either way. And for those that do, there hasn't been any major benchmark across the mainstream to legitimize whatever it is Comics Journalism is supposed to be. 99.9% of it is punditry.

    I think a certain percentage of fans would like the “legitimacy” that “real” comic book journalism would imply for comic books on the whole. Though I think the success of the comic-based movies and TV shows has probably filled that void for most of them.

    Beyond that, I don’t know. I do know that only a small percentage of comic book fans are interested in comic book history beyond a few specific names and dates. And that probably applies to comic book journalism as well. For every fan I’ve seen complain about Bleeding Cool, I’ve seen ten more post a link to their site. After all, comic books are first and foremost an entertainment medium, and how serious do people want to get with their entertainment?
  • wordballoonwordballoon Posts: 87
    edited September 2016
    I was never chased away from CGS forums (wtf ?) .

    As for EOC they got mad at me for awhile because I thought Vince in particular was being rude to Paul Gulacy saying his current style sucked compared to his 70's and 80's stuff. I responded that Let's put you 50 year okd self in a 50 yard dash against you 20 yr self and see who would win? They didn't like that.

    Months later I was asked to come back to 11 o'clock comics forums by Vince B, but I declined. I see those guys at cons and can honestly say the Wood & Vince are always happy to see me and we have a quick catch chat. As for David, I get a "keeping his distance vibe" from him but, whatever. To each his own.

    I do listen to CGS, and Pants knows my love for him in particular will never die.

    Jamie D and I had our differences and I'm not proud of it, but we managed to make amends before his death and we both went on our ways.

    I'm from sports talk radio( 16 years) , so my comments can get pointed, but they were always said in hopes to get a better level of discussion on the shows beyond "Gee why do those publishers, film studios, or TV networks do that?"

    I think podcasters have the access and ability to ask industry people why things happen that fans don't like. I guess some shows would rather just bitch and complain and be satisfied that they don't want to know the answers.


    I know
    Peter listens to my show more than he says, or at least sees my wb posts, cause last year on his twitter feed he went off on why I wasn't jumping on marvel's lack of diversity during the hip hop cover controversy? That happened right after last years san diego con, and frankly I unplugged from comic news for a week cause I was burnt out, had shows in the can to post and needed a web break. I didn't know about the hip hop controversy until a week later when a retailer buddy told me at a casual dinner we were having. Not the first or last time i've seen a "word buffoon" reference in Peter's tweets so he must be aware of what I do or don't do to his satisfaction.

    BTW- I then had Sanford Greene on to talk about it, cause he was one of the artists of color doing Marvel hip hop covers and was drawing the Runaways secret wars mini series. Sanford was already booked at the SD con to talk about Runaways, so we also talked about the controversy.

    he also recorded a parody of my patreon/paypal commercials on his podcast and further went on how podcasters shouldn't ask listeners for money. so again, he must listen more than he's willing to let on.

    I'm sorry I don't follow the BOOK OF RIOS on how to properly podcast.

    Despite his claims, I think listeners of all our shows know the real deal.



  • Um... calling Wizard "Journalism" is like calling Entertainment Tonight "Hard Hitting News." They were Previews with poop jokes.

    Comics Journalism died when TCJ gave up covering comics in about 1996 after Diamond owned everything. The websites that cover comics print press releases and do promo interviews with people. THAT AIN'T JOURNALISM.

    Here and there a disgruntled creator will tell a story to someone about what is going on, but for the most part, comics chug along with people who are happy to pass along what the PR folks give them. Want proof? Which of these "journalists" dug into the dark underbelly of DragonCon before the mainstream media found out about it...and a hell of a lot of people in the comics press knew about what was going on...but wanted those press passes so they could post pics of the cosplayers!

    And interviews are journalism? Great! How about my coverage of Paul Fricke's battle with PTSD after his near fatal accident? Is that journalism? No, it's an interview to promote his kids' comics website that took a turn into a shared experience. Journalism is work, digging into things and breaking stories.

    Sorry kids, but asking Alex Alonso how great the new Avengers crossover will be isn't journalism.


    actually... it is

    Journalism is the work and distribution of reports on the interaction of events, facts, ideas, and people that are the "news of the day" and that informs society to at least some degree. The word applies to the occupation (professional or not), the methods of gathering information, and the organizing literary styles.

    and Peter the periodical category- Comics Jouranlisim is what monthly-daily sites mags do.

    You can debate the quality, which was exactly what Augie's point was (and he again was speaking specifically about comic news websites, not magazines)

    But you can't deny that they do meet this very least minimal definition of journalism.

    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I see it as PR, which is not journalism. Using your definition, Previews magazine is journalism.

    There are a few sites that stumble onto "news" such as freelancer rates, Diamond policies, etc... Hell, I was able to get why Devil's Due screwed up paying freelancers on an interview with the EIC.

    You define journalism as ANYTHING giving information, while I define it as having things such as the principles of truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability - A PR flack isn't going to be objective, impartial, fair or accountable. So, cool, we are just using the word in different contexts.

  • wordballoonwordballoon Posts: 87
    edited September 2016
    Not my definition. that came from a dictionary. previews does do interviews.
  • You define journalism as ANYTHING giving information, while I define it as having things such as the principles of truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability - A PR flack isn't going to be objective, impartial, fair or accountable. So, cool, we are just using the word in different contexts.

    You're both right. Doing a write-up of a press release is still journalism, as long as the writer sticks to the facts. The problem is when sites just repost the press release verbatim rather than editing out the hype and sensationalism. That is bad journalism, and effectively marketing.
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