Episode 1699 Talkback - Spotlight on SHAZAM! in the Atomic Age

Adam_Murdough

The original era of the Original Captain Marvel came to a sad end in 1953... so what DID happen to the Marvel Family? How did they survive the rise of King Kull the Beastman, the baleful influence of the horror genre, and shameless attempts at Cold War/Korean War exploitationism, only to fall victim to a fate far more subtle and insidious, and to vanish into limbo for 20 years? Murd and Chris have some answers in this Spotlight episode covering the comics of the final fling of Fawcett Publications in the Fabulous Fifties (1950-53). (2:50:03)

Listen here.

mphil

Almost 3 hours of '50s Captain Marvel talk? You've made my week. Can't wait to dig into this!

johnnyhateschachi

Just digging into this episode but I would like to add that Fawcett did return to comics publishing with Dennis the Menace comics from 1970 to 1980. I haven't seen much info about this revival but I did have a few of those issues in the past. Perhaps nweathington could give us some further detail?

nweathington

Well, Fawcett Publications was much more than just comic books, of course. They even had a distribution arm. They were around in one form or another until finally selling out to Hachette in 1987 for $712M. And they did come back to comics, not in 1970, but in 1958. But we need to back up a bit.

Pines Publishing got the license to publish Dennis the Menace in late 1952/early 1953. Pines folded in 1956, but it appears that just before they went under, they formed a division specifically for the Dennis the Menace line (there were multiple titles) called Hallden—Hallden is named as an imprint of Pines in only one comic. To the best of my understanding, Fawcett bought Hallden and the division resumed producing not just the Dennis comics, but the digest book collections as well (original Dennis children’s books were handled by Fawcett’s Gold Medal Books division). But during this period, outside of one issue of Mark Trail on Safari in 1959, the only comics Fawcett published were Dennis the Menace titles. I may have some of the details wrong, but that’s the gist of it.

nweathington

Re: @wildpigcomics’ question as to whether or not Captain Marvel & co.’s move to more horror-oriented stories were a response to EC’s line of horror books, EC’s New Trend line had been publishing horror books for about eight months prior to the release of Whiz Comics #126. Only three issues each of The Crypt of Terror, Vault of Horror, Haunt of Fear, Weird Science, and Weird Fantasy (all bimonthlies) had been released by that point. The Crypt of Terror was relaunched as Tales from the Crypt #1 the same month Whiz Comics #126 hit the stands.

Now, EC had published some horror stories in books like Moon Girl as early as 1948, but other publishers were already heading in that direction as well. ACG really started the trend with ongoing horror-specific titles in 1948, and Atlas started pushing the horror angle pretty hard in 1949 in books like Marvel Mystery and even Captain America. But the horror genre didn’t really explode until 1951, after EC’s success was fully established. Considering most comic publishers were producing stories over six months ahead of cover-date, Fawcett really got in on the trend relatively early.

johnnyhateschachi

Thanks so much, nweathington. I knew you'd be the guy to ask. Shazam! Magniconte!

i_am_scifi

@Adam_Murdough I wonder if Ma and Pa Potter were based off of Ma and Pa Kettle, the Universal movie series from the 40's and 50's?

Adam_Murdough

i_am_scifi said:

@Adam_Murdough I wonder if Ma and Pa Potter were based off of Ma and Pa Kettle, the Universal movie series from the 40's and 50's?

Doubtful, Ian. Apart from age and nomenclature, the Potters bear very little resemblance, in appearance or personality, to the Kettles. They're just a kindly, cozily domestic older couple with a predilection for helping and sheltering young people in need. In this, they seem pretty similar to the Kents to me--much more to the Kents than to the Kettles, who already have plenty of needy young people of their own to worry about!

matchkitJOHN

I was trying to google to see if I can find a book or extensive article about the Fawcett/DC court battle. Anybody have any suggestions. Great episode guys!

nweathington

matchkitJOHN said:

I was trying to google to see if I can find a book or extensive article about the Fawcett/DC court battle. Anybody have any suggestions. Great episode guys!

No book I know of covers it in any real depth, and really, there’s not enough meat there to justify an entire book, but there are articles aplenty on the subject. Alter Ego magazine has even published transcripts of the oral depositions of Bill Parker (AE #131) and C.C. Beck (AE #138). Most of the court documents from the ten-year-long case are available online, though as you might expect, they’re pretty tedious to go through. Probably the most thorough I've read is the article Bob Ingersoll wrote for Alter Ego #3 (it’s out of print, but a digital edition is available).

nweathington

Re: King Kull, in 1935 Binder worked for Otis Adelbert Kline as a literary agent. Among other things, Kline was marketing the work of Robert E. Howard, so Binder was certainly aware of Howard’s Atlantean hero. I have no doubt the name of Cap’s adversary was an intentional nod to Howard.

mphil

@wildpigcomics I pretty much always enjoy when you talk history, but wow, you're explanation of the Korean war in this episode was especially spectacular. The way you are able to explain a complex, nuanced event in so few works without a hint of proclivity or bias is awe inspiring. I do solute you.

nweathington

@Adam_Murdough, you'll be interested to know that the credits on “The Olympic Game of the Gods”, according to Binder’s personal records (which ran in Alter Ego #147) indicate that he did in fact write that story. Also, I think Kurt Schaffenberger drew it. Looks like him, and he was one of the main artists of Whiz by then.

Going back through the stories Adam went into from 1950:
Captain Marvel Adventures #104, “The Space Dragon”—not written by Binder
Marvel Family #44—not written by Binder
CMA #106, “The Town That Never Heard of Crime”—not written by Binder
CMA #107, “Sivana’s Better Self”—not written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “WHIZ Gets Color Television”—written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “World’s Mightiest Fight”—written by Binder, art by C.C. Beck
Captain Marvel and the Good Humor Man—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
CMA #109, “Space Aggressor”—written by Binder
MF #48, “The Four Horsemen Ride Again”—not written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
CMA #110, “The American Century”—written by Binder, art by Beck
MF #51, “The Living Statuettes”—not written by Binder; “Mystery of the Square World”—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
Whiz #126, “The Friendly Horrors”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
MF #52, “The School for Witches”—written by Bill Woolfolk, art by Costanza
Whiz #128, “Battles the United Criminals”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger

KellenThunder

Every time I see a Spotlight in my feed, my soul lights up with joy, and this one did NOT disappoint! Great job @Adam_Murdough and @wildpigcomics !

nweathington

@Adam_Murdough, Binder wrote the “Sivana’s Time Trap” story in CMA #121, and I'm interested to see if he wrote any of the other time travel stories you alluded to. Do you have in your notes which issues those stories are in?

matchkitJOHN

nweathington said:

matchkitJOHN said:

I was trying to google to see if I can find a book or extensive article about the Fawcett/DC court battle. Anybody have any suggestions. Great episode guys!

No book I know of covers it in any real depth, and really, there’s not enough meat there to justify an entire book, but there are articles aplenty on the subject. Alter Ego magazine has even published transcripts of the oral depositions of Bill Parker (AE #131) and C.C. Beck (AE #138). Most of the court documents from the ten-year-long case are available online, though as you might expect, they’re pretty tedious to go through. Probably the most thorough I've read is the article Bob Ingersoll wrote for Alter Ego #3 (it’s out of print, but a digital edition is available).

Thank you very much!

nweathington

matchkitJOHN said:

nweathington said:

matchkitJOHN said:

I was trying to google to see if I can find a book or extensive article about the Fawcett/DC court battle. Anybody have any suggestions. Great episode guys!

No book I know of covers it in any real depth, and really, there’s not enough meat there to justify an entire book, but there are articles aplenty on the subject. Alter Ego magazine has even published transcripts of the oral depositions of Bill Parker (AE #131) and C.C. Beck (AE #138). Most of the court documents from the ten-year-long case are available online, though as you might expect, they’re pretty tedious to go through. Probably the most thorough I've read is the article Bob Ingersoll wrote for Alter Ego #3 (it’s out of print, but a digital edition is available).

Thank you very much!

No problem.

nweathington

johnnyhateschachi said:

Thanks so much, nweathington. I knew you'd be the guy to ask. Shazam! Magniconte!

No problem, happy to help!

Adam_Murdough

nweathington said:

@Adam_Murdough, you'll be interested to know that the credits on “The Olympic Game of the Gods”, according to Binder’s personal records (which ran in Alter Ego #147) indicate that he did in fact write that story. Also, I think Kurt Schaffenberger drew it. Looks like him, and he was one of the main artists of Whiz by then.

Going back through the stories Adam went into from 1950:
Captain Marvel Adventures #104, “The Space Dragon”—not written by Binder
Marvel Family #44—not written by Binder
CMA #106, “The Town That Never Heard of Crime”—not written by Binder
CMA #107, “Sivana’s Better Self”—not written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “WHIZ Gets Color Television”—written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “World’s Mightiest Fight”—written by Binder, art by C.C. Beck
Captain Marvel and the Good Humor Man—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
CMA #109, “Space Aggressor”—written by Binder
MF #48, “The Four Horsemen Ride Again”—not written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
CMA #110, “The American Century”—written by Binder, art by Beck
MF #51, “The Living Statuettes”—not written by Binder; “Mystery of the Square World”—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
Whiz #126, “The Friendly Horrors”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
MF #52, “The School for Witches”—written by Bill Woolfolk, art by Costanza
Whiz #128, “Battles the United Criminals”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger

I'm interested to know ALL of this, Eric--I do envy your resources! Thanks for stepping in to provide the answer key for my guesswork. Looks like I'm batting a little above .500, anyway... I'm most surprised to see that Binder didn't write "The Town That Never Heard of Crime"; it really felt like his kind of parabolic rah-rah to me.

nweathington said:

@Adam_Murdough, Binder wrote the “Sivana’s Time Trap” story in CMA #121, and I'm interested to see if he wrote any of the other time travel stories you alluded to. Do you have in your notes which issues those stories are in?

One of them was in CMA #100, the book-length "The Plot Against the Universe," which I'm pretty sure was also written by Binder (it does have Mr. Tawny in it, after all). The other is "A Twice-Told Tale" in CMA #80.

nweathington

Adam_Murdough said:

nweathington said:

@Adam_Murdough, you'll be interested to know that the credits on “The Olympic Game of the Gods”, according to Binder’s personal records (which ran in Alter Ego #147) indicate that he did in fact write that story. Also, I think Kurt Schaffenberger drew it. Looks like him, and he was one of the main artists of Whiz by then.

Going back through the stories Adam went into from 1950:
Captain Marvel Adventures #104, “The Space Dragon”—not written by Binder
Marvel Family #44—not written by Binder
CMA #106, “The Town That Never Heard of Crime”—not written by Binder
CMA #107, “Sivana’s Better Self”—not written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “WHIZ Gets Color Television”—written by Binder, art by Pete Costanza; “World’s Mightiest Fight”—written by Binder, art by C.C. Beck
Captain Marvel and the Good Humor Man—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
CMA #109, “Space Aggressor”—written by Binder
MF #48, “The Four Horsemen Ride Again”—not written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
CMA #110, “The American Century”—written by Binder, art by Beck
MF #51, “The Living Statuettes”—not written by Binder; “Mystery of the Square World”—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
Whiz #126, “The Friendly Horrors”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger
MF #52, “The School for Witches”—written by Bill Woolfolk, art by Costanza
Whiz #128, “Battles the United Criminals”—written by Binder, art by Schaffenberger

I'm interested to know ALL of this, Eric--I do envy your resources! Thanks for stepping in to provide the answer key for my guesswork. Looks like I'm batting a little above .500, anyway... I'm most surprised to see that Binder didn't write "The Town That Never Heard of Crime"; it really felt like his kind of parabolic rah-rah to me.

nweathington said:

@Adam_Murdough, Binder wrote the “Sivana’s Time Trap” story in CMA #121, and I'm interested to see if he wrote any of the other time travel stories you alluded to. Do you have in your notes which issues those stories are in?

One of them was in CMA #100, the book-length "The Plot Against the Universe," which I'm pretty sure was also written by Binder (it does have Mr. Tawny in it, after all). The other is "A Twice-Told Tale" in CMA #80.

No problem, Adam. I'm all about the credits. I'll get to the rest as I have time.

CMA #100, “Plot Against the Universe”—written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza
CMA #80, “Twice-Told Tale”—not written by Binder, art by Beck and Costanza

One of the most interesting things in his records is that he numbered all the Mr. Tawny stories as the “Mr. Tawny Series”—all 21 of them. Also of note are the three unpublished Capt. Marvel prose stories.

mphil

Are there any particular Captain Marvel / Marvel family collections that are recommended? A collection of some of the best and/or most influencial stories is what I'm looking for. I have read some on the Digital Comics Museum but would prefer a paper collection.

nweathington

mphil said:

Are there any particular Captain Marvel / Marvel family collections that are recommended? A collection of some of the best and/or most influencial stories is what I'm looking for. I have read some on the Digital Comics Museum but would prefer a paper collection.

Well, the best and most influential story of the bunch will never be reprinted due to racial stereotypes depicted in the story—the multi-part, two-year-long epic, “Monster Society of Evil”.

Most “Best of” collections tend to be too heavy on the ’70s and later material for my liking. You’d be better served getting the Archive editions (four Shazam! Archives, and one Marvel Family Archive). Though the archives ended before much of the best material appeared, you at least get some of Mac Raboy’s best artwork.

mphil

I knew I could count on you for solid advise! It appears though that Shazam! Archives volume 1 and 2 are out of print, the prices for used copies online are quite high. Volume 3 is in print though. Is it important that these things be read in order? If not I might grab vol 3.

nweathington

mphil said:

Is it important that these things be read in order? If not I might grab vol 3.

No. There are some multi-part stories in these volumes, but they aren’t split across multiple volumes. You'll miss the origin of Cap, but I'm sure you already know the story. Captain Marvel continuity isn’t complicated or even all that rigid.

If you’re only going to get one volume, I might start with Vol. 4. You get the origin of Captain Marvel Jr. and a lot of prime Mac Raboy artwork (plus a lot of early George Tuska art).

mphil

Your knowledge is indispensable. I have ordered vol 4!

nweathington

mphil said:

Your knowledge is indispensable. I have ordered vol 4!

Hope you enjoy it!

BGPhilbin

Hello to Murd & Chris -

Just finished listening and very much enjoyed this dive into the past! Excellent work!

I know you just completed editing and publishing a podcast that was months (years?) in the making with regard to prep work and that it's probably nice to breath a sigh of relief now that it's done. But now I'm super jazzed for the Bronze Age edition. I recognize that's kind of far off, but I wanted to provide an offer of assistance.

I'm a fellow podcaster (although, my podcast has been focused on the international competition for barbershop quartet, of all things) and comics historian. I own all of the 1970s issues of "SHAZAM!" and almost everything else published by DC with Captain Marvel in the 70s, 80s & 90s (admittedly, I wasn't collecting between 1976 to early 1980, so I missed a lot of the backup features when the Marvel Family moved to World's Finest Comics (during the Dollar Comics era).

I don't want to come off sounding like I'm an expert or anything - just a reader who became an Original Captain Marvel fan starting in 1973 when DC began publishing him again - but I'd be very interested in helping out in any way I might be able to concerning getting the work necessary done for the next installment. Anything I can do to help, I'd be glad to do.

I've been a comics reader since 1966, comics collector since 1971, listener of CGS since 2005 and a podcaster/podcast producer myself since 2009 (YouCast, the YouBarbershop Show with my best friend and former quartet mate - a guy who's now a big-time media producer/director). I've also been a Comics Buyer's Guide letters column contributor and I've been publishing comics articles on my webpage since 1999 (see MetropolisPlus.com) and I promise I'd do you proud.

Look me up - look at/listen to my work and if you think I can contribute something of value and/or you have something you'd like done to help out, just E-mail me at:
KlarKenT5477@gmail.com

Pax, harmonia,

Brian G. Philbin
PS - I know Murd has done some singing (and, if I recall correctly, acappella group singin, as well?), so if you'd like to get an idea of what I've done in the barbershop quartetting arena, you'll also find videos of us here and there - here's a link to one of better quality (I'm the big guy singing Bass & performing "Yakko's World" as a solo):
https://youtu.be/KZk6rjAw5BI

mphil

@nweathington got it today! Thanks for the recommendation.

nweathington

mphil said:

@nweathington got it today! Thanks for the recommendation.

Enjoy!

alienal

Very enjoyable episode to listen to. Not only did I like Murd's enthusiastic commentary, but also Chris's occasional laughter and his informative summary of the Korean War. This really helped to past the time while I did some apartment clean-up.

mphil

Exciting news, The Monster Society of Evil is coming back in print in 2019: https://www.newsarama.com/40421-shazam-the-monster-society-of-evil-deluxe-edition-hc-captain-marvel.html