Nweathington, agreed. Martin creates a lot of different female characters, but they're all decidedly not Wonder Woman-like. Although I suppose one could make an argument that Daenyrys is. I think WW's popular despite herself (like Superman or Captain America). Her "feminine perspective" is really just idealized/stereotypical femininity which sounds particularly hollow given what she regularly does.
By the way, I was trying to think of stories I found "feminine", not in the WW "feminine" way, but concerned with feminine problems and motivations and resolving things in ways females can more readily identify with.
You seem to be looking at this in a way that precludes violent conflict resolution from being truly feminine, but I don’t agree with that. Yes, men are more quick to resort to violence than women, but that doesn’t mean women don’t wish to do violence just as often as men do. I can’t tell you how many times my wife has come home from work complaining about some male client who talked down to her on the phone or just plain ignored her (she’s a lab supervisor for an air-testing company), and describing how she wanted to reach through the phone and strangle the guy. She didn’t want to peacefully explain to him how insulting he was being, she just wanted to beat the guy senseless.
When my daughter was in 5th grade, she came home and said some guy was messing with her at school and wouldn't leave her alone, so she punched him and told him if he did it again he’d get more of the same. Just last month she was going to a school dance and was talking about how some of the kids want to make out at the dances. Then she said, “Why do you think I'm wearing these chunky heels? If some guy tries that with me, I'll just kick him in the nuts.” Anecdotal, sure, but I know they are not alone.
Most cultures raise their children, boys as well as girls, to only resort to violence as a last resort, and only if you or others are in danger. Most of us see violence as something to avoid as much as possible. Again, boys are more prone to act out violently because of evolution, genetics, and societal norms, but girls have that violence within them as well. Boys are just given more opportunities and encouragement to express that violence, mostly through sports, while girls are typically steered in other directions. All that is to say that while many women may not be totally comfortable with seeing violence portrayed on the page or the screen, they can certainly relate to it.
Is Wonder Woman idealized? Of course, but I don’t think that makes her less relatable to women necessarily. As with Superman and Captain America, she’s more about wish fulfillment and being something to look up to more than anything else, but women look for those beacons of hope/aspiration/etc. just as men do.
And if you want to look at conflict resolution as a defining moment, in the final battle of the movie, Wonder Woman is literally fighting war (Ares) with truth (her lasso—a non-lethal weapon, I might add).
Here's a question that I've often wondered about: why did Harley Quinn become so popular with women? Does she represent the idea of making the mistake of loving a jerk (presumably making her instantly relatable) while simultaneously representing total freedom?
I think the initial attraction, as it is with most characters regardless of gender, is to the look, the character design. As with everything in life, the things that look good—be it food, a car, a person, curtains, whatever—are going to grab your attention first. And the jester look of the B:TAS Harley is a fantastic design. It’s the same as why Boba Fett became so popular despite only ever saying a few words—he just looks cool.
Harley is my wife’s favorite character—the Harley depicted in B:TAS, not the Harley depicted in the comics. She can’t stand Harley’s outfits in the comics. I think for many the “loving the wrong person” angle is probably significant, but not so much for my wife. For her it’s all about being cute and funny and cutting loose and being unpredictable. There’s probably something with being comfortable and confident in your own skin too.
Nweathington, agreed. Martin creates a lot of different female characters, but they're all decidedly not Wonder Woman-like. Although I suppose one could make an argument that Daenyrys is. I think WW's popular despite herself (like Superman or Captain America). Her "feminine perspective" is really just idealized/stereotypical femininity which sounds particularly hollow given what she regularly does.
By the way, I was trying to think of stories I found "feminine", not in the WW "feminine" way, but concerned with feminine problems and motivations and resolving things in ways females can more readily identify with.
You seem to be looking at this in a way that precludes violent conflict resolution from being truly feminine, but I don’t agree with that. Yes, men are more quick to resort to violence than women, but that doesn’t mean women don’t wish to do violence just as often as men do. I can’t tell you how many times my wife has come home from work complaining about some male client who talked down to her on the phone or just plain ignored her (she’s a lab supervisor for an air-testing company), and describing how she wanted to reach through the phone and strangle the guy. She didn’t want to peacefully explain to him how insulting he was being, she just wanted to beat the guy senseless.
When my daughter was in 5th grade, she came home and said some guy was messing with her at school and wouldn't leave her alone, so she punched him and told him if he did it again he’d get more of the same. Just last month she was going to a school dance and was talking about how some of the kids want to make out at the dances. Then she said, “Why do you think I'm wearing these chunky heels? If some guy tries that with me, I'll just kick him in the nuts.” Anecdotal, sure, but I know they are not alone.
Most cultures raise their children, boys as well as girls, to only resort to violence as a last resort, and only if you or others are in danger. Most of us see violence as something to avoid as much as possible. Again, boys are more prone to act out violently because of evolution, genetics, and societal norms, but girls have that violence within them as well. Boys are just given more opportunities and encouragement to express that violence, mostly through sports, while girls are typically steered in other directions. All that is to say that while many women may not be totally comfortable with seeing violence portrayed on the page or the screen, they can certainly relate to it.
Is Wonder Woman idealized? Of course, but I don’t think that makes her less relatable to women necessarily. As with Superman and Captain America, she’s more about wish fulfillment and being something to look up to more than anything else, but women look for those beacons of hope/aspiration/etc. just as men do.
And if you want to look at conflict resolution as a defining moment, in the final battle of the movie, Wonder Woman is literally fighting war (Ares) with truth (her lasso—a non-lethal weapon, I might add).
Here's a question that I've often wondered about: why did Harley Quinn become so popular with women? Does she represent the idea of making the mistake of loving a jerk (presumably making her instantly relatable) while simultaneously representing total freedom?
I think the initial attraction, as it is with most characters regardless of gender, is to the look, the character design. As with everything in life, the things that look good—be it food, a car, a person, curtains, whatever—are going to grab your attention first. And the jester look of the B:TAS Harley is a fantastic design. It’s the same as why Boba Fett became so popular despite only ever saying a few words—he just looks cool.
Harley is my wife’s favorite character—the Harley depicted in B:TAS, not the Harley depicted in the comics. She can’t stand Harley’s outfits in the comics. I think for many the “loving the wrong person” angle is probably significant, but not so much for my wife. For her it’s all about being cute and funny and cutting loose and being unpredictable. There’s probably something with being comfortable and confident in your own skin too.
I think there’s a little asterisk there. I’d say females are more quick to resort to violence toward females then they are to males. And there’s more brutality to it. Think about your typical dude fight; kicks, shoves, and punches. They’re looking to show strength & power.
I’ve seen enough gal fights to know they’re looking to do damage; hair pulling, face slashing, “un-prettying” blows. They’re looking to take away beauty.
Adam_Murdough in reference to your appearance on Back to the Bins...of course you love Speedball. He was supposedly created by Steve Ditko as a New Universe character. Keep up the great podcasting and until next time, Magniconte!
Nweathington, thanks for the clarification. I didn't mean to suggest that women can't be violent though. My fault for not being clear. I understand women may very well want to sock someone in the jaw (and the younger they are, the more likely they are to do it), but perhaps as a result of evolution, socialization, or more likely, both, I'm not sure that they find punching as conflict resolution as compelling a power fantasy as males do.
I do think that the Gail Simones of the world do, but I think there are two groups of females who don't: the "girly girls" and the "reality-based girls" for lack of a better term (the two groups don't necessarily overlap). The "girly girls" are self-explanatory. They're simply not interested in action/fisticuffs. I know several women who would fit this bill and as one of them said "Ugh, that's boy stuff" when I brought up an action film. She phrased that in a joking way but her meaning was serious. These girls don't get much media attention since the 70's but I think there's plenty of them. These girls are okay with fantasy as long as it has a romantic aspect (the Twilight series is the best example.)
And then there are the "reality-based" girls who just don't like fantasy of any kind. It's just silly to them. Too unrealistic. At the same time, they can read romances (the kinds without vampires of course) and Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters till the cows come home. The minute super powers or magic is put into it, they just lose interest. It's "for kids" to them. I had an ex who was like this and now have a co-worker. There are definitely men who fit into this camp as well but I think these kinds of people are disproportionately female. Perhaps its evolution/socialization but I've never met a male - no matter how "reality-based" they were - who didn't want to see the new Star Wars films. They've never "outgrown" it whereas I know women who enjoyed it as kids and think it's silly now.
George Martin, however, at least IMO, has managed to at least draw in the girly-girls into his sword and sorcery books. (My mom for example loves the show, despite always being turned off by the violence and to a large degree the dragons and magic. She keeps coming back for the relationships. By the way, I would say that the most brilliant move the showrunners ever made was saving the dragons/real "magic" until the very end of season one. The only reason my mom stuck around was because she had already invested in the relationships and the ultimate fate of these characters, but the dragon thing (and the violence) was - and continues to be - a hurtle she has to get over.
Thanks for the insight into Harley Quinn. I can certainly understand why some women would be put off by the more sexualized/violent comics/movie version of Harley.
Comments
When my daughter was in 5th grade, she came home and said some guy was messing with her at school and wouldn't leave her alone, so she punched him and told him if he did it again he’d get more of the same. Just last month she was going to a school dance and was talking about how some of the kids want to make out at the dances. Then she said, “Why do you think I'm wearing these chunky heels? If some guy tries that with me, I'll just kick him in the nuts.” Anecdotal, sure, but I know they are not alone.
Most cultures raise their children, boys as well as girls, to only resort to violence as a last resort, and only if you or others are in danger. Most of us see violence as something to avoid as much as possible. Again, boys are more prone to act out violently because of evolution, genetics, and societal norms, but girls have that violence within them as well. Boys are just given more opportunities and encouragement to express that violence, mostly through sports, while girls are typically steered in other directions. All that is to say that while many women may not be totally comfortable with seeing violence portrayed on the page or the screen, they can certainly relate to it.
Is Wonder Woman idealized? Of course, but I don’t think that makes her less relatable to women necessarily. As with Superman and Captain America, she’s more about wish fulfillment and being something to look up to more than anything else, but women look for those beacons of hope/aspiration/etc. just as men do.
And if you want to look at conflict resolution as a defining moment, in the final battle of the movie, Wonder Woman is literally fighting war (Ares) with truth (her lasso—a non-lethal weapon, I might add). I think the initial attraction, as it is with most characters regardless of gender, is to the look, the character design. As with everything in life, the things that look good—be it food, a car, a person, curtains, whatever—are going to grab your attention first. And the jester look of the B:TAS Harley is a fantastic design. It’s the same as why Boba Fett became so popular despite only ever saying a few words—he just looks cool.
Harley is my wife’s favorite character—the Harley depicted in B:TAS, not the Harley depicted in the comics. She can’t stand Harley’s outfits in the comics. I think for many the “loving the wrong person” angle is probably significant, but not so much for my wife. For her it’s all about being cute and funny and cutting loose and being unpredictable. There’s probably something with being comfortable and confident in your own skin too.
I’ve seen enough gal fights to know they’re looking to do damage; hair pulling, face slashing, “un-prettying” blows. They’re looking to take away beauty.
I do think that the Gail Simones of the world do, but I think there are two groups of females who don't: the "girly girls" and the "reality-based girls" for lack of a better term (the two groups don't necessarily overlap). The "girly girls" are self-explanatory. They're simply not interested in action/fisticuffs. I know several women who would fit this bill and as one of them said "Ugh, that's boy stuff" when I brought up an action film. She phrased that in a joking way but her meaning was serious. These girls don't get much media attention since the 70's but I think there's plenty of them. These girls are okay with fantasy as long as it has a romantic aspect (the Twilight series is the best example.)
And then there are the "reality-based" girls who just don't like fantasy of any kind. It's just silly to them. Too unrealistic. At the same time, they can read romances (the kinds without vampires of course) and Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters till the cows come home. The minute super powers or magic is put into it, they just lose interest. It's "for kids" to them. I had an ex who was like this and now have a co-worker. There are definitely men who fit into this camp as well but I think these kinds of people are disproportionately female. Perhaps its evolution/socialization but I've never met a male - no matter how "reality-based" they were - who didn't want to see the new Star Wars films. They've never "outgrown" it whereas I know women who enjoyed it as kids and think it's silly now.
George Martin, however, at least IMO, has managed to at least draw in the girly-girls into his sword and sorcery books. (My mom for example loves the show, despite always being turned off by the violence and to a large degree the dragons and magic. She keeps coming back for the relationships. By the way, I would say that the most brilliant move the showrunners ever made was saving the dragons/real "magic" until the very end of season one. The only reason my mom stuck around was because she had already invested in the relationships and the ultimate fate of these characters, but the dragon thing (and the violence) was - and continues to be - a hurtle she has to get over.
Thanks for the insight into Harley Quinn. I can certainly understand why some women would be put off by the more sexualized/violent comics/movie version of Harley.