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Episode 1734 Talkback - Avengers: Endgame Movie Review

Twenty-one movies, dozens of characters, billions of theatergoer dollars: it's all led up to this! The time has come to review the Marvel-film-to-end-all-Marvel-films (figuratively speaking), and in the 'Send Everybody' idiom of Endgame, we've assembled six Geeks (plus the Avenging spirit of Jamie D!) to talk over the cast, the creators, and the myriad of Marvel-ous movie moments that make up this cosmic-class blockbuster. Expect infinite SPOILERS! (2:06:06)

Listeners Assemble!

Comments

  • i_am_scifii_am_scifi Posts: 615

    Something that I meant to bring up on the episode that slipped through my fingers is that after this movie, the What If? animated series coming to Disney+ makes a lot more in-universe sense.

  • infinitetofuinfinitetofu Posts: 14
    I've seen Endgame four times now, and it gets better every time. This film is damn near perfect. I looked forward to this episode of CGS, so imagine my disappointment that most of you just thought it was merely good.

    Some thoughts:

    Lebowski Thor is actually much more true to the comics that I think some of you are admitting. In none of the previous Thor films has he been portrayed as a lazy alcoholic like he was, for example, in Jason Aaron's run. Not only was this an appropriate nod to the comics, but it was the logical outcome for his film arc. He's lost everything, half the universe is gone, and he blames himself.

    Bucky absolutely could not get Cap's shield. He is a wanted fugitive! Even if he was brainwashed and framed, he tells us as much in his own words: "Yeah, but I did it." He killed people, and recently, too. Remember the pilots he murdered in Winter Soldier? He will likely never be accepted in the public eye as a hero.

    Black Widow was really the only choice to sacrifice herself for the soul stone. Her entire story arc is about how she has red in her ledger and she's trying to wipe it out. This theme is revisited time and again since The Avengers. This was the only way for her to do that.

    As far as the criticisms of how they dealt with half the population going missing for five years and then suddenly returning, I imagine they'll handle it the same way they handled the invasion of New York. The fallout from that event permeated nearly every movie and TV show. They'll explore it as much as possible. It will likely create new villains, as the NY event did.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374
    edited May 4

    ”Near perfect” is hard for me to label...probably any movie. Thor took too many steps back from Infinity War, the girl power group shot, & Spidey not keeping his mask on keep this movie for even being in the conversation of “near perfect.”

    I contend that Bucky is a viable successor. He’s a victim of manipulation, so how much penance is he still liable for? Plus, fighting in the final battle should be worth clearing his ledger.

    Are we assuming (which is still the mother of all fuck ups) that the identity of Cap will be common knowledge? If not, Bucky could carry the shield. People would be accepting the symbol without knowing the man currently behind it.

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    The first episode; What If...Peggy took the super soldier serum. I’m glad Hayley is coming back to lend her voice. I hope the other actors do the same.

  • Mark_EngblomMark_Engblom Posts: 343
    edited May 3
    Despite this movie's mostly humorous take on Thor, I have to give Chris Hemsworth props for being able to turn on a dime and bring pathos to the character. In particular, I'm thinking about the scene in his New Asgard trailer when Thanos is first mentioned. That moment of "Slacker Bro" Thor instantly melting into a shattered and deeply traumatized figure was extremely moving for me. As much as DC is supposedly exploring PTSD in their "Heroes in Crisis" snoozer, I thought Thor's story in Endgame did a much better job of exploring that theme.

    His official abdication of the Asgardian throne at the end of the movie wonderfully brings his narrative full circle, as the brash godling of the first Thor movie...who believed the status of "King" was simply owed to him...is now a far more humble figure who admits he's still not ready for that role.
  • i_am_scifii_am_scifi Posts: 615
    edited May 4

    I can't believe we forgot to talk about Hail Hydra!

  • infinitetofuinfinitetofu Posts: 14
    edited May 4
    Matt said:

    ”Near perfect” is hard for me to label...probably any movie. Thor took too many steps back from Infinity War, the girl power group shot, & Spidey not keeping his mask off keep this movie for even being in the conversation of “near perfect.”

    I contend that Bucky is a viable successor. He’s a victim of manipulation, so how much penance is he still liable for? Plus, fighting in the final battle should be worth clearing his ledger.

    Are we assuming (which is still the mother of all fuck ups) that the identity of Cap will be common knowledge? If not, Bucky could carry the shield. People would be accepting the symbol without knowing the man currently behind it.

    I'm not sure what you mean by Spidey not keeping his mask off.

    The girl power shot did feel obligatory, but it could very well be setting up a future franchise. Pepper certainly held her own in that battle and it will be up to her and Rhodey to carry on in Stark's name.

    I'm holding firm on Winter Soldier, though. They hinted that he killed JFK, so no. No shield for him, unless it's as a mystery Cap. However, now that Steve is back in another timeline with Peggy, I can't see him not going to rescue Bucky knowing what's in store for him. Bucky would still have the metal arm, of course, but he wouldn't have likely gone on very many kill missions, so he could still be salvaged and they could go on many adventures, stopping Hydra from taking over SHIELD, etc.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    I corrected my error; it was supposed to be “on.”

    Its not the notion of what’s to come, it was the presentation. I think it’d be better if a couple appeared, then as Danvers is proceeding through, the other female characters pop up and helping. The whole group shot just looked ridiculous & pandering.

    Steve’s position (and later T’Challa) in Civil War is that Bucky is a victim. His kills were due to his manipulation, not his own intent. Plus, how many people know what deaths the Winter Soldier are responsible for? Bucky would’ve been exonerated for the explosion at the summit meeting. He pulls on the mask...who’d know who the new Cap is? I understand why people knew who Rogers was.

  • ShaneKellyShaneKelly Posts: 154
    edited May 4
    Part of my thought for Bucky not getting the shield is his on reluctance at this point. I think Bucky would simply say, “No, not yet.”
  • JohnnyWIJohnnyWI Posts: 27
    edited May 4
    More to come, probably, but it's late, and I just finished the episode, so here's a few comments off the top of my head.

    I agree with Chris, Ian, and Matt, that it was the characters that made this movie great. I was very pleased that this movie was more character driven, and less action driven. For me, I didn't find that this movie slogged, in any way. I was actually surprised how quickly the 3 hours went by. I really enjoyed exploring the characters' reaction to the events of Infinity war, and how they all worked through it, and eventually came together again. I found the final battle to be plenty of superheroey goodness for me.

    As much as I love the Guardians, I do have to agree with Kevin's opinion on their lack of dimension. I actually thought we saw that lack in vol 2 as well. I really liked the story, and by all rights it should have worked for me, but was left feeling a little flat. Kevin is right. They haven't grown at all. Hopefully that will change.

    I actually like Thor's humorous side. It does maybe go a little too far sometimes. "I know him from work." was a little too cheesy for me as well. But at heart, you have to remember that besides being the god of thunder, he is also a beer drinking, lady chasing, fun loving Norseman, too. But I would say that they need to find a bit more balance between his two sides.

    In reaction to Shane's question; yes, I too had some theories about what would happen to certain characters by the end. I thought that Tony would live, but would retire to be with his family. That he would come to the conclusion that they were actually more important than saving the world. I thought Cap would probably die, possibly saving Tony from death. I thought he would be the one to die because he was pretty much alone, whereas Tony had Pepper. So, given the end they had for Cap was really awesome, in my opinion. Great way to end his arc. As well, at first, I thought it would be Bucky who got the shield. mainly because it happened in the comics, and I knew Sebastian Stan had more movies left in his contract. But a few days before I saw the movie, it occurred to me that it might go to Falcon, as he has been Cap as well, fairly recently.

    And just a quick nit pick that maybe somebody has an answer for. The gauntlet that they had at the end belonged to Thanos. It should have been the same gauntlet, no matter the particular time period, as I assume it was the one Thanos intended to use to unify the stones' power all along. In Infinity War, he wore it on his left hand, yet at the end of Endgame it was on his right hand.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    The gauntlet at the end was a Stark Gauntlet, not Thanos’. That’s why it could expand to fit the wearer.

    Thanos’ Gauntlet was a lefty, whereas Stark’s was a righty. In some ridiculous religious belief, Left represented evil/bad and Right represented good/right. That’s why at one time, lefty people growing up were forced to write right handed.


    side bar: I’m in a household where my kids & wife are lefties. Clearly, I’m the only one doing things right!

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374
  • alienalalienal Posts: 505
    So, basically three of you thought it was great (Ian, Shane, Chris) while the other three thought it was good, but had some flaws. On the first viewing, I kind of agreed with the latter group, but I think it's because none of the Fox characters showed up and the lack of a mid- or after- credit scene kinda cheesed me off. However with each successive viewing I'm beginning to feel that it is a great movie! Just loved all the callbacks to previous movies (especially the Deja vu feeling of Cap's elevator scene). I didn't really mind any of the stuff others found fault with: half the population coming back should be a sub-plot in future movies; Bucky not getting the shield when I expected him to was jarring, but he could always get it later; the gathering of female characters was a distraction, but it reminded me of that issue of Avengers (v.1 #83?) where Valkyrie, Jan, Wanda, and a few others made a team; and Sif not showing up...well, I was upset that she wasn't in Ragnarok, but I'm over it. So, do you guys know if Pants has seen the movie? I'm curious what he thought. I'm gonna try and see it again in IMAX 3D!
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    During the episode, I realized I liked it more then Kevin & Adam, but not as much Ian, Chris, & the Shaner. It’s easily in my top 5 MCU, but not the first couple spots (forthcoming episode spoiler alert).

  • JohnnyWIJohnnyWI Posts: 27
    edited May 6

    The gauntlet at the end was a Stark Gauntlet, not Thanos’. That’s why it could expand to fit the wearer.

    Thanos’ Gauntlet was a lefty, whereas Stark’s was a righty. In some ridiculous religious belief, Left represented evil/bad and Right represented good/right.


    Now I'm going to have to see it again. So did stark make two gauntlets? I thought Thanos was wearing his own, and Stark was wearing the one that he made. And during that sequence, Stark stole the stones from Thanos, who was wearing a gauntlet on his right hand, and put them into the one that he had made for Hulk (or anyone, as it self adjusts), as he quipped "I am Ironman", and snapped his fingers.
  • JohnnyWIJohnnyWI Posts: 27
    Dammit. I'm gonna have to get better at using the quote function....
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    Thanos put on the Stark Gauntlet. From my understanding (based on one viewing), Stark’s suit was still nanotechnology (as mentioned in IW), so his suit absorbed the stones off the Stark Gauntlet Thanos was wearing. That’s why after Thanos realizes he doesn’t have the “stones,” you see the stones moving into position on Stark’s suit Gauntlet.

  • Adam_MurdoughAdam_Murdough Posts: 472
    alienal said:

    So, do you guys know if Pants has seen the movie? I'm curious what he thought.

    He has, and although he didn't have much to say about it when I saw him last week, his reaction was positive.

  • Mark_EngblomMark_Engblom Posts: 343
    edited May 6
    alienal said:

    Bucky not getting the shield when I expected him to was jarring, but he could always get it later...

    I felt the same way at first, but upon reflection, it made the most sense for Steve to pass the shield on to Sam. Bucky is still very much "a work is progress" as he strives to reclaim his life and mental health. I don't think he's quite ready for that responsibility, not to mention the additional blurring of a self-identity he's still trying hard to reestablish.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing both Sam and Bucky's story continue in their upcoming Disney + series....and hoping against hope to see a few more "Old Steve" cameos along the way!
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,305
    edited May 6
    They telegraphed Sam being Cap’s successor when the cavalry shows up for the final battle. It’s Sam who speaks into Cap’s headset, implying that he is the one who coordinated getting all the returned heroes together and into position—which normally would have been something Cap would have done.

    The movies have really put an emphasis on Cap as a source of inspiration, as a vocal leader, and it makes a lot more sense in that universe to pass the shield on to the “sidekick” who has interacted with the other heroes and earned their trust rather than the one who has been isolated in a mostly hidden country.
  • alienalalienal Posts: 505

    alienal said:

    So, do you guys know if Pants has seen the movie? I'm curious what he thought.

    He has, and although he didn't have much to say about it when I saw him last week, his reaction was positive.

    Thanks, Murd! As for Bucky not getting the shield, sort of like Kevin, I enjoyed Brubaker's run in the comics when he did get it. Sure, I realize this is the MCU and even if it was subtlely telegraphed that Sam was Cap's replacement, his long-term friendship with Bucky through all the Cap films trumped that for me. I have a Non-comics reading friend who loves Bucky and all she had to say at the end of the movie was "Will Bucky ever win?"
  • JohnnyWIJohnnyWI Posts: 27

    Thanos put on the Stark Gauntlet. From my understanding (based on one viewing), Stark’s suit was still nanotechnology (as mentioned in IW), so his suit absorbed the stones off the Stark Gauntlet Thanos was wearing. That’s why after Thanos realizes he doesn’t have the “stones,” you see the stones moving into position on Stark’s suit Gauntlet.

    Ohhhhhhhhhh. Cool!! Now I definitely have to watch again.
  • JohnnyWIJohnnyWI Posts: 27
    ok, I can't seem to do this "quote" function properly. What am I doing wrong?......
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    Two “quote” options are at bottom of each post. The second one creates the quote box in your post.


    Side bar: it reminds of of the Seinfeld bit on pharmacists: “I’m going to take pills out of this big bottle, then I’m going to put them in a little bottle!”

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374
  • LeeNovaLeeNova Posts: 12
    I'm late to the party on this one (I couldn't get to this movie until Memorial Day weekend because...6 month old).

    So about 116 of the 126 minutes of this episode were just Kevin complaining about Thor and then cutting people off to complain more about Thor (or Guardians, or the Russo Brothers, or the acting abilities of Chris Hemsworth, or Steve ending up with Peggy,or Sam becoming the new Cap, etc.), right? Or did it just feel that way? :)
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