Crisis Tapes 21 Talkback - Crisis on Infinite Earths #5, Part 3

Adam_Murdough

More 'Worlds in Limbo' as Adam and Peter continue their super-scrutiny of Crisis #5. Plus, a quick initial reaction to Part One of the CW Network's CoIE TV event! (2:31:29)

Listen here.

Ezri_El

Great episode as usual!

Glad to hear you guys are enjoying CW's Crisis as well.

I mentioned this on the new FB page as well, but I've often wondered if the Peter Parker cameo was in homage to the late 70's, early 80's cameos of Clark Kent in Marvel titles.

nweathington

Re: Warlord, it was originally meant to stand alone. When Grell first came up with the basic story ideas when he was in art school, he was doing it in a newspaper strip format, hoping to get syndicated. Then he pitched it to Atlas Comics, who liked it and wanted to publish it. Then Carmine Infantino found out Grell had sold a book to Atlas and asked to see it. Grell changed several elements of the concept during his pitch to make it fit more in line with DC’s product... and it worked. Carmine guaranteed Grell a twelve-issue run... before cancelling it after the third issue (hence the gap in publishing). Carmine got fired shortly after, and Jenette Kahn came in and put it back on the schedule (and it became DC’s best selling title for a brief period).

Cut to 1983, Grell left DC to go do creator-owned stuff (Jon Sable, Freelance, specifically). DC owned the character and kept the series running for another 63 issues. Grell was only on the book he created for barely more than half the original run. By the time Crisis rolled around, Grell was out of the picture and had no say in how Warlord was handled. From an editorial perspective, it makes sense DC would want to integrate the property into its general universe.

Pants

On the question of whether Lois Lane of Earth-1 had ever met the Earth-2 Superman before - I wish ComicbookDB was still operational. 8-(

I know they both appeared at least once in the same comic - DC Comics Presents Annual #1 - but I too am not sure if they ever actually met before Crisis #5.

@Peter - The idea you mentioned of having the sole female members of Silver Age teams appear in a story together is something I can't believe hasn't been mined already by some writer. Bonnie Baxter (Time Master), Zinda Blake (Blackhawk), June Robbins (Challenger), Judy Walton (Sea Devil), Elasti-Girl from the Doom Patrol, Platinum from the Metal Men, and add Karin Grace from Task Force X and you've got a great team all on its own.

DMHaight

Hi Adam and Peter, thanks again for the great discussion. Your pace is just fine, i look forward to these multi-hour deep dives whenever you have the opportunity to do them. I've read this series dozens of times over the years, but this panel-by-panel examination really adds to my enjoyment of the series. A few specific comments on things you covered this episode...

On the CW network Crisis, I'm enjoying it overall, with the understanding that it can't entirely duplicate (or necessarily even come close to duplicating) the entirety of the series, but there are several scenes evoking the Crisis that i loved seeing on screen. I'm not really sure I like the idea of the "paragons" they added to this version though. In one of the "Aftermath" specials hosted by Kevin Smith, Marc Guggenheim said he got the idea by reading the JLA/JSA crossover from right before Crisis started. This was a reference to JLA issues 231 and 232 by Kurt Busiek and Alan Kuppenberg where they meet the "Champion" family and fight against an extra-dimensional entity called the "Commander". I don't recall those issues having that "paragon" concept, but then that crossover always seemed to be one of the more forgettable ones. I'm curious as to your thoughts on this particular add-on to the story as it plays out in the CW Arrowverse.

I'm in total agreement that DC should do an anthology of "Lost Stories from The Crisis". There are SO MANY potential concepts in this series just waiting to be expanded on. The scene with the Gerrolds and their daughter from another Earth was just a small sample of how these concepts could be expanded upon.

When Batman and a group of heroes, villains, and cavemen from Anthro's tribe show up in Wayne Manor, every time I read this scene I wonder what happens next - how does Batman get these villains out of his home, and does having them all here endanger his secret identity?

As for the developments with Red Tornado, it's interesting to see this change noted in story as being permanent. I don't recall it lasting much past JLA Annual 3.

That's all for now. Until next time, take care.

Peter

DMHaight said:

...Marc Guggenheim said he got the idea by reading the JLA/JSA crossover from right before Crisis started. This was a reference to JLA issues 231 and 232 by Kurt Busiek and Alan Kuppenberg where they meet the "Champion" family and fight against an extra-dimensional entity called the "Commander". I don't recall those issues having that "paragon" concept, but then that crossover always seemed to be one of the more forgettable ones. I'm curious as to your thoughts on this particular add-on to the story as it plays out in the CW Arrowverse.

The first chapter of "Family Crisis" was narrated by the Commander (the villain of the story). The entire two parter reads like a Crisis-lite story with the Commander just about being a stand in for the Anti-Monitor (we covered this in Episode 7 of the Crisis Tapes). Some of the dialogue has similarities to the CW Crisis/Paragon stuff: "There is an image in the Champion's mind -- a League that might defend his world from me. I will seek it out, this... JLA." / Or: "Seven beings hurtle across the void between worlds -- and all of them have unwittingly fallen under my control." I did a quick scan and didn't see the word "paragon" - but I guess you could see the connection. Especially since Supergirl is part of that JLA/JSA adventure.

Or maybe he got the word "paragon" from an earlier JLA story also written by Kurt Busiek which definitely featured a villain called Paragon. Paragon was like a mash-up of Amazo and Prometheus (or Taskmaster). One of my favorite stories from that run - with great Chuck Patton artwork.



Appreciate the feedback!

BionicDave

Thanks for the shoutout, @Adam_Murdough! LOL The holidays delayed my podcast listening, I was finally finishing up this latest episode while flossing my teeth last night and when you mentioned my name I started laughing in my bathroom at 2am :joy:

ANOTHER OUTSTANDING DISCUSSION, PETER AND ADAM!

Wow - this podcast series continues to underscore how much I never knew about my favorite comic book event. A David Gerrold reference in COIE?? (That makes my Trekkie heart sing.) As I've stated before, The Crisis Tapes studies so much more than this event, in particular; you guys are doing such an A+ job at microscoping and macroscoping all of DC Comics, and celebrating it. I don't know if you've heard from anyone who actually works at DC, but I always feel like I want to download your episodes onto 8-track or cassette tapes and send them right over to Burbank. I bet The Powers That Be there would lovingly place your hard work into the DC vaults along with their copies of Action Comics #1 and their slow-growing clones of Julie Schwartz <3

My favorite quote from The Crisis Tapes 21:
"B'wana Beast! Forgotten Silver Age classic, African game warden Michael Payson Maxwell, who, uh... well he drank some magic water that was brought to him by an intelligent red ape, and he put on that helmet, and he gained heightened physical abilities, also the ability to communicate with animals, and, um... physically merge two animals into a single hybrid super-animal, combining the traits of the two species. Strange..." :lol: :lol:

I will end this post with two requests: 1) please consider recording a special episode (even just a mini one) (or okay, even just a segment at the end of one of your regular episodes) where you guys do a more thorough analysis of the CW COIE; and 2) please lengthen your regular episodes to four or five hours, even six! Lol I never want them to end.

Wishing Adam and Peter a healthy and happy new year!

Peter

BionicDave said:

2) please lengthen your regular episodes to four or five hours, even six! Lol I never want them to end.

Yikes! Haha... I feel 3 hours is a good max. I think Adam would agree that our collective brains (and voices) start to snap by the three hour mark. Haha.

Also - to add to DMHaight's post (and my response) above: I just watched parts of the Aftermath specials (mostly skipping any commentary that was made by someone who didn't work on/appear on the actual crossover). Guggenheim's reference was this:

"And the last one before Crisis written by Gerry Conway and drawn by George Perez who drew Crisis was about the idea that there were these special characters that, if you, in the comic, if removed them from the universe basically all super-heroes would disappear."

The "last one before the Crisis" was definitely "Family Crisis" by Busiek and Alan Kupperberg, as DMHaight pointed out. So I think Marc got his timeline/wording confused. What Guggenheim probably meant was: "The last JLA/JSA team up by Conway and Perez" not "The last one before the Crisis". He's referencing JLA 195-197 against the Secret Society of Super-Villains where the Ultra-Humanite did indeed remove ten various heroes from the Multiverse to cause chaos. That was written in 1981. Technically, sure, it's the last Conway/Perez crossover before the Crisis, but it's not the last JLA/JSA team up. There would be three more after that.

DMHaight

Hi Peter, thanks for the feedback! I haven't read that "Paragon" issue of the Justice League in a long time...i'll have to go back and check it out.

Also, on that reference to JLAs 195-197, that makes a lot more sense as being something Marc Guggenheim would've referenced. I LOVED that story - one of my favorites of the JLA/JSA bronze age era. It makes you wonder how the mechanics of those particular candidates the Ultra Humanite chose to remove from reality got the result he wanted, but i don't recall that particular plot point ever being followed up on.