Fox or WB/UPN/CW? Which network (non SyFy) has done more for sci-fi/geek culture?

matchkitJOHN

Finally watched the Fox 25th anniversary special the other day and they did a tribute to the sci-fi shows on the network. They showed a montage of shows they cancelled after one or two seasons (which Seacrest did admit that not all of their shows were hits) then he mentioned they "finally" hit it with X-Files. I found it strange that they made it sound like they had a bunch of shows before X-Files. X-Files got it going back in the day before Buffy et al but I couldn't really say Fox has had the success or commitment as WB/UPN/CW has had. Commitment being sticking with shows for the long run. That may be due to Fox being a larger network and more willing to pull the trigger?

Now I asked my wife who is a bigger non-comic sci-fi geek then I am and she went with Fox because of their number of attempts and doesn't see WB et al as networks(?) but as loosely based TV stations. I was suprised see went that way since she is a huge Buffy/Angel/Supernatural fan. They ARE networks for the sake of this discussion.

So I thought this would be a fun little debate. Have at thee! :)

tazmaniak

I would go with WB/UPN/CW. Buffy, Angel, Smallville, Supernatural and Voyager. Buffy, Angel and Supernatural are actually my 3 favorite genre shows. I enjoyed Smallville for what it was, and while I'm not the biggest Voyager fan in retrospect, it is the first Star Trek series I watched on a regular basis. All these shows aired a minimum of 5 seasons.

I don't think Fox is it. In the entire history of the network, X-Files, Sliders, Millennium and Fringe are the only genre series that lasted more than 2 seasons. Sliders and Millennium went on to be canceled after that 3rd season.

While I agree they have launched more series, they don't stick with them, so I don't give them credit for that.

Webhead

I say UPN because they gave us the the next generation of Star Trek series TNG, DS9 and Voyager

dubbat138

I say UPN because they gave us the the next generation of Star Trek series TNG, DS9 and Voyager

Wasn't TNG and DS9 syndicated shows?

Night_stick

I would have to agree that WB/UPN/CW did more for Sci-Fi then Fox. WB/UPN/CW have covered Sci-Fi from the supernatural to the futuristic space dramas.

KyleMoyer

Since I've never watched Voyager, Buffy or Supernatural and only a small handful of Smallville episodes, but I was a big fan of the X-Files (except for the last few seasons) and I am a big fan of Fringe, so I'll be the voice of dissent and say Fox.

Of course, they also killed Dollhouse and the Terminator. But on the other hand, they aired those shows in the first place.

I'm still sticking with my Fox answer for another reason. Fringe has had horrible ratings this year, but it's getting a fourth season to wrap up the story. It's one thing to get low ratings on UPN, but Fox actually has shows that people watch. Granted, I don't know why people watch American Idol, but it still brings in the viewers.

Justin_TheBuck

@kylemoyer Fringe is getting a fifth season.

I have to say Fox as well. It had:
Sliders for 3 seasons then it moved to Sci-Fi.
X-Files for 9 or 10 seasons.
Sightings for 5 seasons but that was a docu so I'm not sure if you want to count it or not.
Tru Calling for 3 seasons. Fox seems to love and hate Faith.
And they had I think 20+ sci shows that lasted from 1-2 seasons,I think that more than the other networks so based on volume alone it has to be Fox.


I think UNP/WB/CW had some of more unique sci-fi shows like:
Buffy 7 seasons
Angel 5 seasons
No Whereman 1 season sci-fi/drama (more drama than sci-fi)
The Watcher (a twilight zone rip off staring Sir Mix-A-Lot) 1 season
Supernatural 7 seasons and counting (going on 8)
Smallville 10 season
Reaper sci-fi/horror/comedy 2 seasons
Voyager granted not unique but it did air originally on the network. 7 very hard seasons to watch with only a hand full of good eps.
Enterprise 4 seasons

John_Steed

@kylemoyer Fringe is getting a fifth season.

=D> \:D/ \m/

LOVE that show

spid

While Fox did not air all of these shows they were the Studio that produced Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse.

RedRight88

I'd have to go with FOX, I know that they cancel a lot of their shows rather quickly. But, there is something else to take into effect....

NO ONE WAS WATCHING THOSE SHOWS TO BEGIN WITH

I know that it's a novel concept that shows that get terrible ratings and loose money for the channel airing them get cancelled. But FOX should at least get some credit

KyleMoyer

@kylemoyer Fringe is getting a fifth season.

You're right. My bad, I'm not sure what my brain was farting when I typed fourth.

Webhead

I say UPN because they gave us the the next generation of Star Trek series TNG, DS9 and Voyager

Wasn't TNG and DS9 syndicated shows?

They were only syndicated if their was no local UPN network.

KyleMoyer

I say UPN because they gave us the the next generation of Star Trek series TNG, DS9 and Voyager

Wasn't TNG and DS9 syndicated shows?

They were only syndicated if their was no local UPN network.

According to Wikipedia, the last episode of TNG aired on May 23, 1994 and the first day of broadcasting for UPN was January 16, 1995, so I think there weren't very many local UPN networks during TNG's run.

dubbat138

I say UPN because they gave us the the next generation of Star Trek series TNG, DS9 and Voyager

Wasn't TNG and DS9 syndicated shows?

They were only syndicated if their was no local UPN network.

Now I might be wrong but I am pretty sure TNG and DS9 both started way before UPN did. I know I my area both aired on FOX.

Eric_C

I say ABC just for giving us LOST. There is no greater gift from a TV network

David_D

It's an interesting question. I would say Fox, but not just because they had a hit with X-Files and took a geeky genre show and made it water cooler talk.

I would say that that it is Fox because of the Simpsons. I think that show has had an enduring impact not just on comedy, but on geek culture as well. I think it found a smart, irreverent, open-minded crossover audience that is actually quite similar to the appeal of a lot of the geek successes that have come since.

Hellsfire

It's easily FOX. They took chances on shows no one else would and they put out way more than UPN/CW/WB. I personally wish they had kept The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. as opposed to X-Files, but that's another subject.

It's only recently that the CW is doing sci-fi shows. Both UPN and CW mostly had sitcoms or dramas. Unless you count Homeboys in Outerspace!

tazmaniak

It's only recently that the CW is doing sci-fi shows. Both UPN and CW mostly had sitcoms or dramas. Unless you count Homeboys in Outerspace!

That's not really true. Star Trek Voyager was the very first show aired on UPN back in early 1995. And The WB created Buffy during the network's second season in early 1996. So both of them started very early.

They also developed just as many sci-fi/fantasy shows as Fox. Not only that, their shows lasted longer.

KyleMoyer

I think another thing to take into consideration with Paramount is that they already owned Star Trek prior to the formation of UPN. Moving a pre-existing franchise with a built-in rabid fan base to your own infant network is a vastly different undertaking than developing a new show from scratch. And yes, I know that's still no guarantee of success, but a new Star Trek series is a safer bet than a unique (at the time) show like X-Files. In hindsight of course, X-Files got better ratings (as far as I know) than Voyager, but hindsight is always 20/20.

mguy1977

Fox:
Sliders (3 seasons at Fox & 2 at Sci Fi channel)
M.A.N.T.I.S.(one season)
Werewolf (one season)
Undeclared (one season)

WB/CW
Smallville (10 total 5 seasons at each network)

Syndicated
(Adventures of) Superboy live action 80s/90s (4 years)
War of the Worlds (2 years)
Freddy's Nightmares (Freddy introduces the story & plays the villain in a quick 30 minutes of horror against B & C list actors a lot of one note stories) (2 years)

Not on the list but worthy of some merit

USA Network
Weird Science (tv series) 5 seasons at USA + the final 6 episodes aired on Sci Fi channel (go figure)
Swamp Thing (live action tv series) 3 seasons
USA Up All Night (NOT the NBC show) home of B-movie/horror/cult classics films for 4 to 6 hours block (9 years)

If you want it a geek/sci-fi show to last here is a big hint in neon lights, don't put it on Fox. Put on one of the big 3 broadcast networks or a upcoming network not named Fox. Heck if you are desperate, put it on syndication on the weekend. If it is good someone will watch it. In the era of more networks wanting a slice of the pie of what's popular ie ratings, AMC will likely be a new home for geek/sci-fi in the future.

Matthew

tazmaniak

If you want it a geek/sci-fi show to last here is a big hint in neon lights, don't put it on Fox. Put on one of the big 3 broadcast networks or a upcoming network not named Fox. Heck if you are desperate, put it on syndication on the weekend. If it is good someone will watch it. In the era of more networks wanting a slice of the pie of what's popular ie ratings, AMC will likely be a new home for geek/sci-fi in the future.

Matthew

I think Starz will also be a new home for geek/ sci-fi in the future. They've already aired Spartacus, Camelot and Torchwood. They'll soon premiere Da Vinci's Demons (fantasy), Marco Polo (martial arts fantasy) and Black Sails (pirate adventure).

They're also developing a supernatural drama based on the novel, Personal Effects: Dark Art, an action series based on the anime series, Noir, and a supernatural/ horror miniseries based on Dean Koontz's' Twilight Eyes.

Hellsfire

That's not really true. Star Trek Voyager was the very first show aired on UPN back in early 1995. And The WB created Buffy during the network's second season in early 1996. So both of them started very early.

They also developed just as many sci-fi/fantasy shows as Fox. Not only that, their shows lasted longer.

Having one or two sci-fi and fantasy shows doesn't make make the channel that. WB and UPN were still primarily dramas and sitcoms. I didn't just go from memory. I looked at all three lists and FOX had way more shows that actually made the air. They might not have lasted more than a season or two, but considering how fast shows get canceled today, that's not that bad.

mguy1977

Sadly, I also do not get the Starz channel either w/ my cable provider in Louisiana. I get 50 channels available & of those 50 channels, I only watch 18 channels regularly & 20 when ESPN & ESPN2 have college football from September to December. Roll Crimson Tide Roll!!!

Matthew

tazmaniak

That's not really true. Star Trek Voyager was the very first show aired on UPN back in early 1995. And The WB created Buffy during the network's second season in early 1996. So both of them started very early.

They also developed just as many sci-fi/fantasy shows as Fox. Not only that, their shows lasted longer.

Having one or two sci-fi and fantasy shows doesn't make make the channel that. WB and UPN were still primarily dramas and sitcoms. I didn't just go from memory. I looked at all three lists and FOX had way more shows that actually made the air. They might not have lasted more than a season or two, but considering how fast shows get canceled today, that's not that bad.

I still disagree. Going by memory and also looking at a list, I say that Fox aired 34 genre shows, The WB aired 11, UPN aired 17 and The CW aired 6. It's the same. And that's counting all shows with sci-fi/fantasy elements, and counting 2 unscripted shows for Fox.

When it comes down to both having the same amount of output, I'm going with the network that has the most successes. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not going to give credit for attempting and not succeeding. And some times half-heartedly.

Even if Fox had put out way more shows, with only a few surviving, does that make more of an impact than a network that put out fewer shows, but with more surviving? I say no. You obviously feel differently, so that's that.

Hellsfire

I still disagree. Going by memory and also looking at a list, I say that Fox aired 34 genre shows, The WB aired 11, UPN aired 17 and The CW aired 6. It's the same. And that's counting all shows with sci-fi/fantasy elements, and counting 2 unscripted shows for Fox.

When it comes down to both having the same amount of output, I'm going with the network that has the most successes. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not going to give credit for attempting and not succeeding. And some times half-heartedly.

Even if Fox had put out way more shows, with only a few surviving, does that make more of an impact than a network that put out fewer shows, but with more surviving? I say no. You obviously feel differently, so that's that.

CW is still a relatively recent channel. I didn't even count anything they put out that wasn't already on before the merger or anything FOX did that was recent like Terminator or Terra Nova or Alcatraz.

And the question wasn't "Which sci-fi/geeky show was successful," which you still couldn't really compare because FOX is a major network as opposed to CW, WB, or UPN. The question was, "Which network (non SyFy) has done more for sci-fi/geek culture?" That's how I'm looking at it and that is easily FOX. Between X-Files and two shows that I think are terrible: Firefly and Family Guy, those three outweigh anything the other networks did. Again, for geek culture, which was the original question and not "Which sci-fi/geeky show was more successful."

tazmaniak

Again, I see your point, but can't agree. I would put Buffy the Vampire Slayer, alone, against those 3. Almost every serialized character driven genre series that came after it was inspired by the the series and followed it's mold. Charmed, Smallville, Supernatural, True Blood, Doctor Who, The Vampire Diaries, Being Human, Misfits, The Fades, Lost Girl, ect. It developed a whole new way of telling stories on television.

While Firefly and Family Guy are popular, other than fans enjoying them, what would you say they've actually done for sci-fi/geek culture? Adult oriented animated comedies existed before Family Guy debuted. It didn't influence a string of similar shows in it's wake, other than the ones created by Seth McFarlane. What about Firefly? Has that show had any impact as far as inspiring other projects? Are there any shows and movies out there that are following in the steps of Firefly?

I would even put Smallville in there. A live action comic book series that lasted for 10 seasons. That show had a huge influence on this generation's exposure to Superman and other DC characters, for better or worse. It brought in a whole new demographic of fans. If you visit some message boards, you'll find plenty of people who didn't care for the character or blatantly disliked him before watching the series.

You point out that the original question is which network's shows did more for sci-fi/geek culture and not which one was the most successful. So, in your opinion, what did Family Guy do for the culture that The Simpsons or South Park didn't do? Or what did Firefly do that wasn't already done by Star Trek, Babylon 5 or Firefly?

Did those shows reinvent, influence or ultimately change people's mind about the genre? More so than Buffy or Smallville? I personally don't think so, but I would like to hear your opinion on it.

KyleMoyer

If you want it a geek/sci-fi show to last here is a big hint in neon lights, don't put it on Fox. Put on one of the big 3 broadcast networks or a upcoming network not named Fox.

Except that the big three networks probably won't take it at all. Lost is of course the one exception, but I can't think of very many other big three network sci-fi shows over the last decade that even got a first season, let alone second, third or fourth. FOX gets a bad rap for canceling sci-fi shows, but people ignore the fact that FOX is the biggest network that takes a chance on them in the first place.

mguy1977

All I know is when I liked a show on Fox of those genres in the 1980s & 90s, it was lucky it lasted past the first season. X-Files works for alot of people but not for me give me Sliders instead. V got two half seasons on ABC. Yes it is a redux but hey they took chances. The Flash was on CBS & lasted 1 season but have strong tv competition & a war going on Gulf War I. ABC had Lois & Clark for a while lets be honest once you did the frog thing it jumped the shaek for some people. NBC had Heroes it was a loose X-Men ripoff from what I understand. WB/CW had a legit hit w/ Smallville for about 6 seasons & it waned for two years & had new energy w/ the remaining two years. Lana as a witch storyline the less said the better even I can't figure it out.

Matthew

spid

Again, I see your point, but can't agree. I would put Buffy the Vampire Slayer, alone, against those 3. Almost every serialized character driven genre series that came after it was inspired by the the series and followed it's mold. Charmed, Smallville, Supernatural, True Blood, Doctor Who, The Vampire Diaries, Being Human, Misfits, The Fades, Lost Girl, ect. It developed a whole new way of telling stories on television.

If you think Buffy is a cornerstone, I don't disagree, then should it not matter that Fox the studio created the shows? The WB only aired the show, and the reason it and now the CW can keep genre's shows on for much longer is because they can keep a low rated show on for longer.

There is something to be said for putting out more shows, even if they do not last as long, because your exposing the general audience to new takes on genre. Maybe some one will not like super-heroes, but likes a space cowboy, or a alternate reality show, or a show about fairy tales in the modern world.