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Over-rated comics
SolitaireRose
Posts: 1,445
With the Watchmen discussion and reading some "best" lists on other sites, I feel like it should be OK for us to talk about comics that are held in high regard that maybe shouldn't be. Not to slag off on them, but to discuss WHY we feel they aren't as good as people believe or to have someone convince us that we are wrong.
For me, the first one that comes to mind if Spider-Man Reign. Over on Comics Should Be Good, this is listed as one of the 50 best Spider-Man stories and my reaction was "You have to be kidding!" Even if you gloss over the pure silliness of how Mary Jane died, it's a near slavish retelling of Dark Knight in the Spider-Man world. The story doesn't hold together and descends in the the whiny aspect of Peter's character so much that I just didn't like him. In a story like this, you show the hero at his lowest ebb and how he builds himself back up and I never once got the feeling that he had built h8imself back up....just that he was pushed to a conclusion.
Someone want to change my mind?
For me, the first one that comes to mind if Spider-Man Reign. Over on Comics Should Be Good, this is listed as one of the 50 best Spider-Man stories and my reaction was "You have to be kidding!" Even if you gloss over the pure silliness of how Mary Jane died, it's a near slavish retelling of Dark Knight in the Spider-Man world. The story doesn't hold together and descends in the the whiny aspect of Peter's character so much that I just didn't like him. In a story like this, you show the hero at his lowest ebb and how he builds himself back up and I never once got the feeling that he had built h8imself back up....just that he was pushed to a conclusion.
Someone want to change my mind?
Comments
Things other geeks seem to think are phenomenal that I just don't get generally involve Grant Morrison. With Marc Waid to ground him I can tolerate Morrison but left to his own devises I lose interest.
Batman Year One (this may be my biggest rift universally among other comic fans, I really don't like it at all)
Watchmen (ftr I actually do like the book, I just don't think it is what it is hyped to be)
Maus (again I actually enjoy it a lot)
Preacher (I know this must signal a deficiency in me)
American Flagg (not a thing for me)
Strangers in Paradise (ditto)
Sandman (I like this but it has never inspired me to own massive HC tomes for hundreds of dollars in the least bit)
Second, I really believe that there is no such thing. Why? Because art is entirely subjective, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And thus, one should never label a piece of art as "receiving more respect than it deserves" (AKA is over rated) because that would suggest that a particular piece of art has an unequivocally exact and intrinsic value... but no piece of art does... because it's all entirely subjective.
Hence, Random73's confusion about other works of art that:
"...other geeks seem to think are phenomenal that I just don't get..."
is PERFECTLY reasonable and ENTIRELY predictable. Why? Because Random73 has the ability to generate an independent thought. And thus, the "reputation" of a particular piece of art should be, and seems to be, completely irrelevant to Random73. Good! That's the way that it should be! Anyone who "tries to like something" because all the cool kids like it is hopelessly insecure (at best).
But the FUN part in all of this is EXACTLY what SolitaireRose wrote to start this thread: "...to discuss WHY we feel they aren't as good as people believe" or, to put a positive spin of things, to describe why we like something as much as we do. Let's emphasize the positive in art! Isn't it more fun to describe why we love something instead of listing why we dislike something?
Although I disagree strongly with SolyRose in that it is possible to "convince us that we are wrong." There is no such thing as being "wrong" about art. My opinion about my individual likes and dislikes will NEVER be wrong, ever. Nobody will ever "convince" me that the Mona Lisa is priceless. I think it's ugly and boring... and I will always reserve my right to judge art for myself, thanks.
So, no, I have no interest in changing SolyRose's mind about Spider-Man: Reign (which I also disliked immensely), but I would like to suggest that the assumption of the post (i.e., that each piece of art has an undeniable intrinsic value) is in error. Simply stated, Soly and I both dislike "Reign," whereas the folks at "Comics Should Be Good" seem to love it, and nobody is correct, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and no amount of discussion will ever change that reality.
MJ dies from radioactive semen. Radioactive semen.
And doesn't he kiss her corpse?
Both Watchmen and DKR to some extent. Both are GREAT, but each has become an institution beyond their worthyness in my humble opinion.
Grant Morrisons Batman of recent years. The praise for this just blows my mind.
Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Sandman.
Hush.
I'll ask a question about the groups take on things. I tried to read The Boys early on, issue 3 or so, and honestly couldn't stomach it. the justice league analogs whatever they were called we're gang raping some newbie kid and I was done. Don't get me wrong I love the deconstruction of the superhero genre, but I'm not old enough to be reading that. And really while I'm on the rant it kind of bothers me that retail bookstores like Barnes and Nobles don't have it wrapped in plastic. I'm truthfully not a prude but I don't think a ten year old should be able to just pick that up off a shelf.
Never really understood the huge cult following for Fables, either. I mean, it's decent, but it never excited me a whole lot beyond the James Jean covers (those are worth getting excited about). I picked up the trades from the library but lost interest 3 or 4 in. Same with Y The Last Man.
Is he strong? Listen, Sherm, he's got radioactive sperm.
Look out! (No, seriously, LOOK OUT!) Here comes the Spider-Man!
Fables - I enjoy it but I don't love it. I've had a hard time wanting to keep buying the deluxe HCs but the story always does enough (just enough) to draw me back at some point.
Mouse Guard - Pretty much the same with Fables. I actually really enjoy it but my draw initially was purely the art, I have eventually come around on the story and like it a lot more than Fables generally though. I still adore the art, it is in my top graphic novel shelf as a result. I do often think I could write a better/cooler story with the amazing world laid out and I've played the RPG and seen some really creative stuff... better than the source material actually.
Maus is a big offender. I've read it three times. I don't see it being high literature, or a well told story.
Hush was a mess. Total fubar.
Dark knight strikes back was worse than deliberately bad, but no one accuses it of being good. Just wanted to say it.
Rocketeer. Mind blowing art. Infantile story.
Crisis holds up well too.
Walking Dead
MouseGuard
Sandman
Fables
Any Jeph Loeb book
Any DC 'Crisis' BS...including the biggie 'Crisis on Infinite Earths'.
oh...there are lots more for me.
Bring out yer hate! (ding)
Shut up! You'll be stone dead in a moment!
Nope.
Stop embarrassing yourself, Mike.
As opposed to just listing things you hate, or finding over the top ways to dump on the things you hate but others dared to like. Which is an exercise in joining in on the Internet being the Internet, where even aesthetics have rights and wrongs.
(Not that it is against any rule- comic talk is comic talk even when it is hating. Just my personal two cents, for what it is worth.)
However, instead of going into prolonged detail about each book my approach was to list some of mine, and some brief insight as to why, and then if other's also mention a title, then discuss it at more length which is how I took the OPs question. If anything so far this thread has shown a fair bit of consensus if anything which is the exact opposite of some flame-fest.
The topic might not be for everyone, there are hundreds of others here that are, pass on by. For people that are able to discuss and chat about the topic without any panty twists or anger, I enjoy hearing and discussing things like this. There is no right or wrong and no one to try to sway or convince.
As far as Preacher I have to agree with @LibraryBoy I think it is because I do read a lot of more adult and mature themed stuff (comics and non) that some things seen as adult/mature more in the shocking or mature-for-comics can come off as a bit more contrived or juvenile. (not always for sure). This isn't new for comics where shock value has been a selling point, so again it really isn't controversial but when a story does it really well and seamlessly and with merit it just *is* and works.