'Superman' was frustrating, says George Pérez

Happenstance

Superman writer George Pérez has opened up about his departure from the title.

Speaking during the Superman Day celebration, the scribe expressed his frustration about the creative differences and lack of freedom he experienced on the DC Comics title.

"I had no idea Grant Morrison was going to be working on another Superman title, I had no idea I was doing it five years ahead, which means, my story I couldn't do certain things without knowing what he did," Bleeding Cool quotes Pérez as saying.

"Grant wasn't telling everybody, so I was kind of stuck, who exists, DC couldn't give me answers. Oh my gosh, you're deciding all these things and you mean even you don't know what's going on in your books… so I became very frustrated."

Pérez admitted that he could not wait "to get off Superman" by the time his six-issue run came to an end earlier this year.

Dan Jurgens and Keith Giffen currently serve as the creative team on Superman, though Scott Lobdell is due to take over writing duties following the release of September's issue #0.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/comics/news/a389579/superman-was-frustrating-says-george-perez.html

luckymustard

Would it have made more sense, if DC just had to have Morrison writing a superman title, that there be only one superman title? And which of the two would it have been? Action or superman?

This is similar to what we've recently heard about the bat books, that Morrison is allowed to be in his own little world, despite him actually being in a big world.

LibraryBoy

Given that the inter-book continuity has been so... inconsistent, it's not surprising to hear that the cart is leading the horse, nor that Grant is apparently being given a pass when it comes to play with everyone else (though, to be honest, I like his stuff better than a lot of the others). I wonder if Johns is being given the same pass? It would certainly make sense.

Not gonna lie, though... I'm a little disappointed to see that George's complaints didn't continue with "And that costume! I mean..." :))

SolitaireRose

I don't know if you can say that Grant is being given a pass so much as the editors at DC aren't communicating to people. I could also be snarky and say that if George didn't know there would be at least one other Superman book, he doesn't know comics very well, since Superman has had at LEAST two books since 1939.

The more I see how the DC books are being done, and the nature of the first big crossover in the Batman books, it seems pretty clear to me that the communication being done at DC is FAR behind the close collaboration being done at Marvel.

WetRats

You'd think DC would have learned after Final Crisis, not to let GMo in the driver's seat again.

Perhaps the aliens who abducted him granted him mind-control powers or something.

Or maybe the Wankathon worked better than we thought.

Zhurrie

Well, I guess enough time has passed that I can finally spill a bit of the beans that George was who I had been speaking with a while back about his thoughts and views on DC. I still can't get into specifics because it was a personal conversation but I knew some of it was going to start to come out publicly eventually, and I'm guessing more will. There is a lot wrong internally at DC right now and some really wrong-headed thinking about the creative talent and how many of these projects are being run and managed. I have a feeling as this year continues on there will be more and more unrest and people speaking out or splitting ways. I feel for George and a host of others that are really getting the shaft currently and it actually was the reason I have cut all big 2 from my life, not that there aren't some good books but because there are a lot of people's livelihoods being messed with and severely impacted by a few at or near the top that really should know better and have an entirely different outlook than they do since many of them were in the same places. A lot of it does boil down to communication for sure though and from what I've heard it is atrocious, not just bad. Money, power, and greed.

David_D

To me, it is less about who is being put in the driver's seat and more about what happens when you have a bunch of people in the middle playing continuity traffic cop (I will abandon this metaphor before I stretch it any further). And trying to enforce continuity over story.

I know this is heresy in some circles, but if what Perez wanted to do was going to be a great story, even if it might end up being messy continuity or timeline wise, then I say let 'em. I have many, many memories of being surprised and excited by a strong story that the creators seem to enjoy telling. I think I have zero memories of thinking, "This is so consistent and organized!"

Oh well. Hopefully it will inspire Perez to be his own boss again. (I would imagine/hope that he's already got his retirement planning in place).

random73

You'd think DC would have learned after Final Crisis, not to let GMo in the driver's seat again.

Perhaps the aliens who abducted him granted him mind-control powers or something.

Or maybe the Wankathon worked better than we thought.

Amen! Can I GET a witness! HA!


Morrisoncon has to be the douchiest thing I have ever heard of.

random73

To me, it is less about who is being put in the driver's seat and more about what happens when you have a bunch of people in the middle playing continuity traffic cop (I will abandon this metaphor before I stretch it any further). And trying to enforce continuity over story.

I know this is heresy in some circles, but if what Perez wanted to do was going to be a great story, even if it might end up being messy continuity or timeline wise, then I say let 'em. I have many, many memories of being surprised and excited by a strong story that the creators seem to enjoy telling. I think I have zero memories of thinking, "This is so consistent and organized!"

Oh well. Hopefully it will inspire Perez to be his own boss again. (I would imagine/hope that he's already got his retirement planning in place).

I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.

mguy1977

Well that explains alot if you don't share the toys w/ Grant you can't know what the other writer is planning. DC should have had open communication between the writers to brainstorm on the Superman titles. I thought Perez did a solid job & Morrison did a great job on their opening arcs of their respective titles. I hope Perez does something else in comics in the near future hopefully still w/ DC. On a side note, Superman Family Adventures is just 100% pure fun!

Matthew

SolitaireRose

To me, it is less about who is being put in the driver's seat and more about what happens when you have a bunch of people in the middle playing continuity traffic cop (I will abandon this metaphor before I stretch it any further). And trying to enforce continuity over story.

I know this is heresy in some circles, but if what Perez wanted to do was going to be a great story, even if it might end up being messy continuity or timeline wise, then I say let 'em. I have many, many memories of being surprised and excited by a strong story that the creators seem to enjoy telling. I think I have zero memories of thinking, "This is so consistent and organized!"

Oh well. Hopefully it will inspire Perez to be his own boss again. (I would imagine/hope that he's already got his retirement planning in place).

I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.

I will respectfully disagree. Marvel's Avengers VS X-Men is created by committee, and it's a rollicking good time.

However, if the people in charge of the committee aren't letting people IN the committee talk to each other, you get DC Challenge.

David_D

To me, it is less about who is being put in the driver's seat and more about what happens when you have a bunch of people in the middle playing continuity traffic cop (I will abandon this metaphor before I stretch it any further). And trying to enforce continuity over story.

I know this is heresy in some circles, but if what Perez wanted to do was going to be a great story, even if it might end up being messy continuity or timeline wise, then I say let 'em. I have many, many memories of being surprised and excited by a strong story that the creators seem to enjoy telling. I think I have zero memories of thinking, "This is so consistent and organized!"

Oh well. Hopefully it will inspire Perez to be his own boss again. (I would imagine/hope that he's already got his retirement planning in place).

I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.

I would imagine that is often true, but there are also big exceptions-- one of the best and most entertaining things the DCU has ever done for me as a reader was 52, which was written by a team, in close collaboration with essentially an art director doing I think all the breakdowns (Giffen) and a strong editor. And that team produced fantastic work.

But I guess the difference between what they did, and the situation that Perez is describing is that in the case of 52, a team (often an analogy they used in interviews is that it was like being in a band) were all collaborating to tell a big story. To specifically make something big together. To take a year-long story, structure it, and tell it.

But in the case of Action and Superman, it sounds like people getting in the way of telling a story. Or not tell certain stories yet. To try to guard a fictional five year span between this book over here and that one over there, all to make sure that the make-believe is organized. And for what? At that point it is not about trying to tell the best stories you can, it is about worrying about whether or not great stories might, just might, contradict. In which, I am sure, lives will be lost in some big, pile up of mental real estate. A make-believe crash.

That, to me, feels like continuity at its worst: when you are letting the nitpickers drive the bus. When you are afraid of your own readers. It sounds like, instead of letting Perez do the story he wants to do, Perez had to compromise to do the story that best fit. And I think the results of those priorities speak for themselves.

(Okay, I will get off my anti-continuity soap box now)

random73

I'm tracking with both you guys on that, I loved 52 as well. Let me clarify what I mean by "committee" because I'm okay with a writing team. By "committee". I'm thinking about non-writers (ie editorial or business office folks) dictating story elements.

jaydee74

I'm still gonna say that I liked George Perez's Superman story and seeing what he had to work with, I have more admiration for it now. Could it have been better? Sure, but I still enjoyed it.

WetRats

I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.

I would imagine that is often true, but there are also big exceptions-- one of the best and most entertaining things the DCU has ever done for me as a reader was 52, which was written by a team, in close collaboration with essentially an art director doing I think all the breakdowns (Giffen) and a strong editor. And that team produced fantastic work.

I think there's a pretty big difference between a team and a committee.

I know I'd rather be on a team than in a committee.

Greg

Wrong, just wrong. It's George Perez, let him do his thing. I don't feel so bad losing interest in Superman having read this.

Torchsong

My only fear from all this is that we're apt to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Up to this point, all the hand-wringing and public outcry has been about books that I don't really have a stake in, and I'll allow myself that 5% of schadenfreude to say "Well, glad I never invested in THAT particular title!" :) But as bad as the "design by committee" has been for some titles, DC is putting out some really great books at the same time (yeah, he's gonna bring up Demon Knights again, isn't he?). I've really been enjoying Teen Titans, Legion of Super Heroes, Demon Knights (told ya he would!) and they've even taken storied characters and put a great new spin on them with Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Supergirl. All three of those books are top of the stack when they show up.

Hopefully they'll get it together at DC before teams start hopping off these books as well.

David_D

I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.

I would imagine that is often true, but there are also big exceptions-- one of the best and most entertaining things the DCU has ever done for me as a reader was 52, which was written by a team, in close collaboration with essentially an art director doing I think all the breakdowns (Giffen) and a strong editor. And that team produced fantastic work.

I think there's a pretty big difference between a team and a committee.

I know I'd rather be on a team than in a committee.

I agree.

Though, and here is where it might be getting semantic, things that are team-written (rare in comics but common or even the norm in television) are often described, pejoratively, as being written "by committee". Even if that group of writers may have thought of themselves as a team. You know what I mean?

I think the difference for me between what we know of 52 and what little we know of this Perez situation is not just the difference between a team and a committee, but also a difference in purpose: The act of making a big, single thing together vs. keeping the imaginary trains running on time between these two separate things that share a character.

WetRats

Though, and here is where it might be getting semantic, things that are team-written (rare in comics but common or even the norm in television) are often described, pejoratively, as being written "by committee". Even if that group of writers may have thought of themselves as a team. You know what I mean?

Oh yeah. I think often the difference between one and the other is experiential rather than organizational.

I almost always use "committee" as a pejorative.

In my internal dictionary a team is greater than the sum of its parts, and a committee is less.

Zhurrie

From what I have heard (this is not from George) the issue is more with individuals that have let power/status go to their head and making decisions in a vacuum regardless of who it affects. Forcing massive re-writes past the 11th hour for no real reason, changing major aspects of a story after the art is finished, no regard no care for the creative teams. It isn't so much committee as it is a combination of trying to be too corporate and structured with a few big egos and titles that should know better and sympathize instead stepping on any hand and face they can as they climb their mythical ladder. A lot of minimizing is also happening where they don't want big names and even top talent to feel like they have any power or control. It is pushing them away and will continue to but that is what they want. Why cover health insurance and pay big rates when they can put out something like GI Combat with horrible re-used 3D models and no art or effort? I've mentioned him before but Cully Hamner's vision is terrifying to me, just 3D models of key environs and "digital assets" and then just pose away and slap on some text. The problems are at the upper-middle and top management and vision and focus.

DoctorDoom

You'd think DC would have learned after Final Crisis, not to let GMo in the driver's seat again.

Perhaps the aliens who abducted him granted him mind-control powers or something.

Or maybe the Wankathon worked better than we thought.

I hear that, brother.

Money, power, and greed.

First you get the money....

DoctorDoom

I think there's a pretty big difference between a team and a committee.

I know I'd rather be on a team than in a committee.

I don't want to be part of any committee that would have me as a member.

BlackUmbrella

The biggest frustration with George Perez's Superman is that it wasn't very good. And I happened to enjoy it for a few issues, but I got the feeling I was squarely in the minority. I like(d) Perez's art for many years, but I get a little skeptical when I hear the author of what was by many accounts a decidedly mediocre book blaming others. I don't hear Gail Simone or Snyder or Capullo complaining.

David_D

The biggest frustration with George Perez's Superman is that it wasn't very good. And I happened to enjoy it for a few issues, but I got the feeling I was squarely in the minority. I like(d) Perez's art for many years, but I get a little skeptical when I hear the author of what was by many accounts a decidedly mediocre book blaming others. I don't hear Gail Simone or Snyder or Capullo complaining.

To be fair, though, Simone, Snyder and Capullo may be having a different and more positive experience. It could be that, despite whatever is going on at the top, that closer to the work Mike Marts is running a more creator-friendly office than Matt Idelson.

Or, it could be that Perez is just blaming others. Honestly it is hard to know. But what Perez is saying has tracked with complaints that other creators have made about the current working conditions. (And, on the flip side, there are plenty of creators who have not complained about the current conditions. From the outside it is hard to know.)

Nick

Morrisoncon has to be the douchiest thing I have ever heard of.

What is so "douchey" about it? I listened to the 11 O'clock episode with the promoter, and I thought it sounded like a cool, new idea. Can you elaborate?

Greg

@Nick - A small convention type thing surrounded mostly around one specific creator, who through his own personality has made a number of people (like me) see him as a prima donna, a diva of sorts. Morrisoncon thus comes off as kind of arrogant and yes douchey eventhough Grant himself is not putting the show on.

I know the episode you're talking about and I do agree that this type of show is a cool concept.

WetRats

Or, it could be that Perez is just blaming others.

Only if he's possessed.

I've met Mr. Perez several times over the years, and he is a truly classy gentleman.

If he's frustrated enough to speak out, things have to be really bad.

random73

Morrisoncon has to be the douchiest thing I have ever heard of.

What is so "douchey" about it? I listened to the 11 O'clock episode with the promoter, and I thought it sounded like a cool, new idea. Can you elaborate?

Sorry Nick. I'm not much of a Morrison fan to begin with. I think naming a convention after yourself is a smidge self serving. Unless it is my birthday I am not hosting an event celebrating the glory of all things ME! That is why I consider it douchey.

Zhurrie

@WetRats, could not agree more. And the full tale is far worse than I know I had even imagined and as everyone knows I'm not a big cheerleader for DC. Creators are speaking out more and more and it is going to continue, but the bigger issue is that the creator-owned market can't absorb everything and a lot of people are going to be impacted negatively by it all. Consumers have shown they are indifferent or straight up don't care so it is not a real great spot to be in for a lot of creative professionals. I know I may come off as idealistic at times but having come from a family of artists and being around many more you get a far different perspective on things and I'd rather have 100 artists than any 1 suit.

David_D

Or, it could be that Perez is just blaming others.

Only if he's possessed.

I've met Mr. Perez several times over the years, and he is a truly classy gentleman.

If he's frustrated enough to speak out, things have to be really bad.

I believe you. I just was staying open to all the possibilities (and, to be fair, what you quoted was at the end of a list of possibilities), as I wasn't "in the room" if you know what I mean.

And I agree with you about the context that- if Perez is at the point of speaking out (which I don't recall him doing, at least not in the Internet years that I've been paying attention) then that does say something.

More and more it feels like things are getting to a tipping point. We'll see.

steve_bryant

Over at Bleeding Cool, George sums up a lot of what's wrong woth contemporary comics (emphasis mine):

And given when I worked on Legion Of Three Worlds with Geoff Johns… Geoff Johns was an enormous fan of mine and wanted to do a George Perez comic. At this point DC, much to my regret is now going so that all the scripts are fully scripted as opposed to plot, which you draw and then the script comes in a lot more input into the story. Geoff sent me a full script. And the most humongous panel description I have ever seen with all this stuff going on in just one page, how anyone, even me, fit all that. And then Geoff explained it, what he did was take my Crisis On Infinite Earths and dissected it and tried to describe the panel that I drew in Crisis On Infinite Earths that’s what it would look like, if you describe the panel that I did, that’s what it looked like, I had never seen it written in text before, oh my God, no wonder people thought I was insane. That’s what a George Perez panel was to him, that’s how he broke it down.

The thing I had to remind him, yes because that’s not what Marv asked for. Marv say, these characters fight, then I made it into a George Perez panel. If you are writing what you consider a George Perez panel, you give me nothing to do.

Non-visual people coming up with visual descriptions are bad for comics.

Thankfully, Johns let George, y'know, BE GEORGE:

So from that point for the only time in his career, Geoff Johns went from full script to plotting, and let me be George Perez again.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/06/24/george-perez-talking-about-being-rewritten-at-dc-comics/