welcome aboard the pain train, Mike and Jamie. Dc fans have been riding it for about a year now. In fact, I believe we can pinpoint your steps toward acceptance. Mike's in denial and Jamie is in the barganing phase. The good news is comics are cyclical, and eventually the train will end up back at the station
I liked how Jamie D. was laying down the fist of truth on Marvel calling royal bullshit what is w/ Marvel's NOW! (or lets half ass copy what DC is doing). I hope Katie wins for Gronk since it a great weekly strip. If you make Support Katie (or Gronk) pins I will buy one. Pants have a fun & safe trip to SDCC. Finally, any big plans for episode 1250?
I'd buy a Fist of Truth comic. Hell, Jamie D should have his own Fist of Truth segment in which he call billshit on the dumbest comic move of the week. Or would that be too Louis Lane?
Ah, while I think it might not be a GREAT move, I think Marvel NOW! is an expected move. Marvel obviously didn't want to totally revamp their whole continuity, but they probably feel they have to respond to DC's gains in some way. And while Jamie did sound frustrated, he also seemed to understand that this move is a combination of the typical Marvel "event" (House of M, Civil War, Invasion, Heroic Age, etc.) and a reaction to DC. It's a business move to retain or reclaim market share. Hey, and like Jamie and Pants said I'll probably buy some books to see what's up just as I bought many of the DC new 52. Harvey Awards: well, congrats to those nominated! I'm sure they all quite deserving. Pants!: Have a good time at SDCC! Man, I wish I could get there someday. Oh, as for the end piece : While I thought it was very creative, it was very discordant. I think Pants did a better job with his "...this all would will be edited out..." NOT! - episode. ( episode 1211 What Fools We Are)
Interesting note about the fact that movies do not sell Comic books yet here we see so many images of Thanos and the big rumors of the guardians of the galaxy becoming a film tie in to the avengers sequel and there at the forefront is Rocket Racoon.
I agree that these books are getting to expensive to be spending 4 bucks on 22 new books.
I'm always skeptical about time travel issues, temporal displacement often leads to more problems than solutions.
Have fun at the Convention, ultra jealous of those who will be going, I look forward to listening for all the big breaks.
I don't care about Marvel NOW! either way. Marvel is goning to to do whatever it is they want to do for good or bad, well thought out or half-assed and I'm not going to waste my energy on it.
I've already said this, if the $3.99 and double shipping hijinks keep up when this launches, I'm out. The only title I'll be keeping is Amazing Spider-Man. I've already talked about it in the other thread so I won't repeat it here. Dropping Fantastic Four will not be easy, having Fraction take that title over when Hickman left was my nightmnare and it seems to be coming true.
i like the premise of the original 5 x-men coming to the future and seeing Xaviers dream completely spoiled and saying if this is what we fought for it wasn't worth it or we did it wrong...who hasn't wanted to go back and re-live their life knowing what they know now? there is a lot of drama to be mined here. I am not a Bendis fan (although i suppose he rates higher than Morrison) but I'm intrigued by this.
While I would understand why a creator would be hesitant to take a great concept and hand it over on a work for hire contract I think there is a bigger factor at play.
Marvel and DC have supported the launch of completely new characters and titles.
And we haven't bought them. And so those titles and characters (e.g. The Order, Simon Dark just off the top of my head. I am sure more could be named) get cancelled, and the talent on those titles get moved over on to brand extensions of proven content. And then we buy THOSE. We message to them as publishers that we would rather read Fraction and Kitson do another Thor book then have them do something new. So I think at least some of the blame for the aversion to new characters is that we, as readers, have created a toxic environment for them.
Even Runaways-- a fantastic title and intended to be Vaughan and Alphona's gift to the Marvel Universe (that is how Vaughan described making characters he loved that he knew he was selling outright. His giveback to the Marvel Universe he grew up with) had trouble selling. Even the original Vaughan/Alphona run had to get relaunched in the middle to survive. And when Runaways later became a fan favorite and sold really well in collections (and has sold huge to libraries)... a Runaways title can't be sustained. Because there seems to not be an audience for it.
So, yes, I agree that part of the lack of new characters is from creators being wary of creating what they will not own. But I also don't get the feeling that the Big 2 are asking them to make new toys, because we keep telling them that we don't want them.
From what Brubaker has said, bringing his Captain America to a close was his own choice. And I agree with Jamie that run is past its prime.
More importantly- and this is another example of how Marvel NOW! not being line-wide benefits some titles that are going strong- while Captain America is getting restarted, Brubaker and Lark's Winter Solider get to just continue doing what it is doing. And I hear that title is fantastic (I am waiting for the first HC). So as far as I am concerned, it is good that the Brubaker Cap can come to an end, and get handed over to someone that might have a little more enthusiasm for it.
While I would understand why a creator would be hesitant to take a great concept and hand it over on a work for hire contract I think there is a bigger factor at play.
Marvel and DC have supported the launch of completely new characters and titles.
And we haven't bought them. And so those titles and characters (e.g. The Order, Simon Dark just off the top of my head. I am sure more could be named) get cancelled, and the talent on those titles get moved over on to brand extensions of proven content. And then we buy THOSE. We message to them as publishers that we would rather read Fraction and Kitson do another Thor book then have them do something new. So I think at least some of the blame for the aversion to new characters is that we, as readers, have created a toxic environment for them.
Even Runaways-- a fantastic title and intended to be Vaughan and Alphona's gift to the Marvel Universe (that is how Vaughan described making characters he loved that he knew he was selling outright. His giveback to the Marvel Universe he grew up with) had trouble selling. Even the original Vaughan/Alphona run had to get relaunched in the middle to survive. And when Runaways later became a fan favorite and sold really well in collections (and has sold huge to libraries)... a Runaways title can't be sustained. Because there seems to not be an audience for it.
So, yes, I agree that part of the lack of new characters is from creators being wary of creating what they will not own. But I also don't get the feeling that the Big 2 are asking them to make new toys, because we keep telling them that we don't want them.
your statement "and has sold huge to libraries" speaks volumes to me. I stand by the belief that the reason comics are failing is that we are not getting them into peoples hands! If comics were an impulse item in the grocery store setting on a shelf next to the freaking tabloid they would sell more copies faster than they do in specialty shops! People LIKE comics. Not just geeks but people. In the last 3 months i have had 5 completely non geeks (people who have never read a comic in THEIR ENTIRE LIVES) read all 16 Walking Dead trades. I had a working mom, The number 2 powerlifter in the world, a drug and alcohol counsilor (not mine), a 20something kid, and a State Farm claims trainer. Everyones favorite part of the newpaper is the funnies. I desperately hope that digital comic apps appearing ont he ipad and other tablets provide the simple access to comics needed to bring this medium back to life.
Fun episode, guys. Where's Murdough? Someone better pull him out of that Stone Harbor time vortex and get him back in the studio! :)
Marvel RIGHTFREAKINGNOW is a measured response to DC, no doubt about that. We all know they can't reboot, it goes against their philosophy and they'd come off looking like also-rans. They'd also be foolish to interrupt DD and Winter Soldier and the other books generating new heat. So, it's a bit of a relaunch, and a bit of a reshuffle, and a bit of a "re-branding" a la Age of Heroes and Shattered Heroes and Picking up the Pieces Heroes and Whatever Else They've Done To Heroes. But I digress....
Personally, Uncanny Avengers looks interesting, although it may be just to see how long Cassaday can do it. Anyone else reminded of Millar & Hitch on Fantastic Four. I remember thinking the same thing about Hitch back then, "He'll never stay on schedule!" and sure enough, he had Joe Ahearne helping out by the end of the run...
Did you guys mention Bendis on Guardians of the Galaxy? That still sounds interesting. I think 2012 could be the year I learn to love a space-faring rodent...
Maybe I'm unrealistic, but I'm not ruling out an adult Jean Grey returning at the end of AvX, along with the young Jean in the time-traveling X-team Bendis is going to be playing with. I started reading comics after Morrison killed Jean. I think I deserve a two-Jean universe. :)
I haven't bought a Marvel book on an ongoing basis besides Daredevil and Amazing Spider-Man since the eighties, when I bought almost entirely Marvel books. And the run of Spider-Man (a year or more?) was after One More Day... I had no interest in reading a married Spider-Man. I've bought trades of Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run, which I love.
I wish this was an honest-to-goodness line wide reboot. I would probably buy in to that. DC's reboot has really been fun and I'm enjoying picking up whatever I need to to get a sense of the universe and seeing things unfold. I just don't see getting pulled away from that for what is essentially a reshuffling of the same deck at Marvel.
And I'm sure not paying $3.99 when I can buy two month-behind DC books for that price. Plus Marvel doesn't participate in incentives at DCBS. Add double shipping to that and I'm out.
Fun episode, guys. Where's Murdough? Someone better pull him out of that Stone Harbor time vortex and get him back in the studio! :)
He's actually made two trips from Stone Harbor back to the studio for some recordings with us so far this summer. He'll be on the phone for the Previews episode later this week.
Good episode guys
One question are all going read and review all the new Marvel Now books like you did with the New DCU books.
Don't know yet. Haven't heard all the release information and I haven't spoken to all of the other guys about it yet. Seems like the only fair thing to do though. :)>-
Okay, the thing about the Harvey Awards is that they were created by Gary Groth, and for years they were basically known as “The Fantagraphics Awards” because Fantagraphics titles would win virtually every category. I'm not saying they stuffed the ballot box, but that was the general consensus. Most people in the industry got fed up with it and just stopped voting. Once that happened several creators started nominating themselves (perfectly legal) and recruited all their buddies to vote for them. So for a few years there were some odd results as far as nominees went and occasionally with the winners as well. It’s gotten a bit more balanced over the past few years, but a lot of people in the industry still view the Harveys with skepticism or even complete disdain.
You can't dump these ideas in the ultimate U because the branding on that universe is already worn out.
All this NOW stuff is is just rebranding. New number 1s top sales charts. Do you really think there won't be a new FF Thor Cap , etc? Relax and read, or get off the merry go round if the ride seems boring. It's unfair to deny new readers the chance to discover these characters because old farts are wise to "the tricks" that DC and Matvel pull.
Also this wasn't slapped together in haste. The reason for the slower new releases is so the current creators can wrap up their existing runs and the new stuff will have a bigger impact when they come out in smaller doses .
Wish I owned a liquor store with all the whine that was served up on this episode. ;) It was funny to listen to but you marvel guys need to accept the idea that both companies need to change things up to keep trying to put new life in these properties .
Even Runaways-- a fantastic title and intended to be Vaughan and Alphona's gift to the Marvel Universe (that is how Vaughan described making characters he loved that he knew he was selling outright. His giveback to the Marvel Universe he grew up with) had trouble selling. Even the original Vaughan/Alphona run had to get relaunched in the middle to survive. And when Runaways later became a fan favorite and sold really well in collections (and has sold huge to libraries)... a Runaways title can't be sustained. Because there seems to not be an audience for it.
I'm a high school teacher and I was able to convert two girls (both who adamantly told me, "I NEVER read comic books!"). I challenged them to read the first issue and that was all they needed to get hooked. One girl came back to me after class so that no one would see that she was reading a comic book. I had the digests, but I gave her the big oversized hardcovers instead so she would have to struggle hiding it. :D They were upset when it was all over and wanted more. I then moved them onto Scott Pilgrim and they where hooked again.I think there's a market for these books, but not as traditional monthly floppies. Bring back the series in collected digest form and I'm sure Marvel will make bank.
I'll be honest. As much as I try to get out of the big two and into more Image and indy/creator-owned books, Marvel always finds a way to suck me back in like a fool and a lot of this does sound interesting despite the negativity from a lot of people.
But $3.99 twice a month? If they'd drop it to $2.99, I'd actually be willing to try every new number one (since it is spread out over a long time period). Since it looks like they're still doing the free digital copy thing, I might just need to find someone with an ipad to split the cost with.
I'm a high school teacher and I was able to convert two girls (both who adamantly told me, "I NEVER read comic books!").
At our school (Zürich, Switzerland) we students used comics for all sorts of education. We read Asterix in history class, Tintin in French class and Eisner's Contract with God in English class.
Lately, Berlitz, a German publisher of learning materials, is selling comics in various languages. Those books cover the grammar, the use of language in real life and include a dictionary. And are used in schools.
Re: 'It has been proven that movies don't sell comics'
I would be interested to see that proof. We have heard exactly the opposite of that in experiences shared by some of the retailers interviewed on CGS.
Now it may be that the bump is not as immediate, or as big, as some retailers would like. (And there is also the necessary question of what promotion and advertising local retailers might do at the time of a movie's release to try to get customers to their store). But I would be curious where it has been definitely shown that movies do not sell comics. And is this only taking about monthly periodicals in the shops? Or does this also include bookstores.
An example off the top of my head (and, sure, one example is only an anecdote)-- the Joker hardcover OGN by Azzarello and Bermejo. Came out shortly after The Dark Knight. Movie bait, as the cover even looked like the movie Joker. Sold like hotcakes in the direct market, if I remember the sales charts from the end of that year. And I would guess sold quite well in the bookstores as well. Did the movie really have nothing to do with that? Was the average direct market reader (not the 100 Bullets fan, but the typical guy in the shop) really chomping at the bit to buy a $20 book about the Joker "From the Writer of Superman: For Tomorrow"? Or did the movie sell that book?
Re: 'It has been proven that movies don't sell comics'
Over here they put a sticker on any comic that has some connection to a movie - "now a major picture" and such. And give those comics a major spot in the store. I guess newbies tend to buy them ;)
@Pants Thanks for the info. I've heard him a bit this summer, didn't mean to suggest he'd been entirely absent. Keep up the good work!
@KyleMoyer You make it sound like you have to give up Marvel entirely to check out Image or indies... Don't cut off your nose to spite your face! All the publishers have great books right now. I'm loving Saga over at Image, and Double Jumpers #1 from Action Lab totally lived up to the hype, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna give up Wolverine & the X-Men. And honestly, getting away from the House of Ideas seems to make me appreciate it more when I return...
The New52 reviews got me back into comics and CGS, so I'm all for doing the same thing with Marvel. The slower rollout should help prevent too much focus on the one publisher...
I'm not sure how I feel about Marvel NOW! I'll be curious as to how it works out for them but I doubt this venture is necessarily going to bring in new readers. Movies overall don't bring in new readers. At least that's what I've seen over time with all of these comic related movies coming out. The fact though that this is not a reboot and the characters will still have fallout from previous events, (Avengers vs X-Men) I think will make it more confusing for newer readers or readers that have not read Marvel in awhile. I like the idea of a team consisting of Avengers and X-Men but that's not new. I do like the roster though. I take it the team will not get along 100% due to the AvX event. The time traveling X-Men book does have me intrigued. I am most curious to see how past Scott Summers reacts to current Scott Summers. I'm not all that excited for this but I'm curious as to how this will work out for Marvel in the long run.
Pants
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Comments
Matthew
B.
Harvey Awards: well, congrats to those nominated! I'm sure they all quite deserving.
Pants!: Have a good time at SDCC! Man, I wish I could get there someday.
Oh, as for the end piece : While I thought it was very creative, it was very discordant. I think Pants did a better job with his "...this all would will be edited out..." NOT! - episode. ( episode 1211 What Fools We Are)
I agree that these books are getting to expensive to be spending 4 bucks on 22 new books.
I'm always skeptical about time travel issues, temporal displacement often leads to more problems than solutions.
Have fun at the Convention, ultra jealous of those who will be going, I look forward to listening for all the big breaks.
I've already said this, if the $3.99 and double shipping hijinks keep up when this launches, I'm out. The only title I'll be keeping is Amazing Spider-Man. I've already talked about it in the other thread so I won't repeat it here. Dropping Fantastic Four will not be easy, having Fraction take that title over when Hickman left was my nightmnare and it seems to be coming true.
The rumored list of titles and creators @JamieD was referring to was on Bleeding Cool. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/07/03/checking-the-marvel-now-rumour-checklist/
Best of luck to both Katie Cook and Mike Norton. The whole family, especially my daughter is rooting for Katie.
While I would understand why a creator would be hesitant to take a great concept and hand it over on a work for hire contract I think there is a bigger factor at play.
Marvel and DC have supported the launch of completely new characters and titles.
And we haven't bought them. And so those titles and characters (e.g. The Order, Simon Dark just off the top of my head. I am sure more could be named) get cancelled, and the talent on those titles get moved over on to brand extensions of proven content. And then we buy THOSE. We message to them as publishers that we would rather read Fraction and Kitson do another Thor book then have them do something new. So I think at least some of the blame for the aversion to new characters is that we, as readers, have created a toxic environment for them.
Even Runaways-- a fantastic title and intended to be Vaughan and Alphona's gift to the Marvel Universe (that is how Vaughan described making characters he loved that he knew he was selling outright. His giveback to the Marvel Universe he grew up with) had trouble selling. Even the original Vaughan/Alphona run had to get relaunched in the middle to survive. And when Runaways later became a fan favorite and sold really well in collections (and has sold huge to libraries)... a Runaways title can't be sustained. Because there seems to not be an audience for it.
So, yes, I agree that part of the lack of new characters is from creators being wary of creating what they will not own. But I also don't get the feeling that the Big 2 are asking them to make new toys, because we keep telling them that we don't want them.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/07/10/marvel-ends-9-titles-as-marvel-now-begins/
CAPTAIN AMERICA #19 (bye bye Brubaker)
UNCANNY X-MEN #20
NEW MUTANTS #50
X-MEN LEGACY #275
INCREDIBLE HULK #15
THE MIGHTY THOR #22
Matthew
More importantly- and this is another example of how Marvel NOW! not being line-wide benefits some titles that are going strong- while Captain America is getting restarted, Brubaker and Lark's Winter Solider get to just continue doing what it is doing. And I hear that title is fantastic (I am waiting for the first HC). So as far as I am concerned, it is good that the Brubaker Cap can come to an end, and get handed over to someone that might have a little more enthusiasm for it.
Marvel RIGHTFREAKINGNOW is a measured response to DC, no doubt about that. We all know they can't reboot, it goes against their philosophy and they'd come off looking like also-rans. They'd also be foolish to interrupt DD and Winter Soldier and the other books generating new heat. So, it's a bit of a relaunch, and a bit of a reshuffle, and a bit of a "re-branding" a la Age of Heroes and Shattered Heroes and Picking up the Pieces Heroes and Whatever Else They've Done To Heroes. But I digress....
Personally, Uncanny Avengers looks interesting, although it may be just to see how long Cassaday can do it. Anyone else reminded of Millar & Hitch on Fantastic Four. I remember thinking the same thing about Hitch back then, "He'll never stay on schedule!" and sure enough, he had Joe Ahearne helping out by the end of the run...
Did you guys mention Bendis on Guardians of the Galaxy? That still sounds interesting. I think 2012 could be the year I learn to love a space-faring rodent...
Maybe I'm unrealistic, but I'm not ruling out an adult Jean Grey returning at the end of AvX, along with the young Jean in the time-traveling X-team Bendis is going to be playing with. I started reading comics after Morrison killed Jean. I think I deserve a two-Jean universe. :)
I wish this was an honest-to-goodness line wide reboot. I would probably buy in to that. DC's reboot has really been fun and I'm enjoying picking up whatever I need to to get a sense of the universe and seeing things unfold. I just don't see getting pulled away from that for what is essentially a reshuffling of the same deck at Marvel.
And I'm sure not paying $3.99 when I can buy two month-behind DC books for that price. Plus Marvel doesn't participate in incentives at DCBS. Add double shipping to that and I'm out.
One question are all going read and review all the new Marvel Now books like you did with the New DCU books.
All this NOW stuff is is just rebranding. New number 1s top sales charts. Do you really think there won't be a new FF Thor Cap , etc? Relax and read, or get off the merry go round if the ride seems boring. It's unfair to deny new readers the chance to discover these characters because old farts are wise to "the tricks" that DC and Matvel pull.
Also this wasn't slapped together in haste. The reason for the slower new releases is so the current creators can wrap up their existing runs and the new stuff will have a bigger impact when they come out in smaller doses .
Wish I owned a liquor store with all the whine that was served up on this episode. ;) It was funny to listen to but you marvel guys need to accept the idea that both companies need to change things up to keep trying to put new life in these properties .
But $3.99 twice a month? If they'd drop it to $2.99, I'd actually be willing to try every new number one (since it is spread out over a long time period). Since it looks like they're still doing the free digital copy thing, I might just need to find someone with an ipad to split the cost with.
At our school (Zürich, Switzerland) we students used comics for all sorts of education. We read Asterix in history class, Tintin in French class and Eisner's Contract with God in English class.
Lately, Berlitz, a German publisher of learning materials, is selling comics in various languages. Those books cover the grammar, the use of language in real life and include a dictionary. And are used in schools.
Some folks got into comics through school :D
I would be interested to see that proof. We have heard exactly the opposite of that in experiences shared by some of the retailers interviewed on CGS.
Now it may be that the bump is not as immediate, or as big, as some retailers would like. (And there is also the necessary question of what promotion and advertising local retailers might do at the time of a movie's release to try to get customers to their store). But I would be curious where it has been definitely shown that movies do not sell comics. And is this only taking about monthly periodicals in the shops? Or does this also include bookstores.
An example off the top of my head (and, sure, one example is only an anecdote)-- the Joker hardcover OGN by Azzarello and Bermejo. Came out shortly after The Dark Knight. Movie bait, as the cover even looked like the movie Joker. Sold like hotcakes in the direct market, if I remember the sales charts from the end of that year. And I would guess sold quite well in the bookstores as well. Did the movie really have nothing to do with that? Was the average direct market reader (not the 100 Bullets fan, but the typical guy in the shop) really chomping at the bit to buy a $20 book about the Joker "From the Writer of Superman: For Tomorrow"? Or did the movie sell that book?
Over here they put a sticker on any comic that has some connection to a movie - "now a major picture" and such. And give those comics a major spot in the store. I guess newbies tend to buy them ;)
@KyleMoyer You make it sound like you have to give up Marvel entirely to check out Image or indies... Don't cut off your nose to spite your face! All the publishers have great books right now. I'm loving Saga over at Image, and Double Jumpers #1 from Action Lab totally lived up to the hype, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna give up Wolverine & the X-Men. And honestly, getting away from the House of Ideas seems to make me appreciate it more when I return...
M
M