Grumpy Old Fan On Used Universes

Chuck_Melville

The Grumpy Old Fan at Robot 6 has an interesting column this week: robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/08/grumpy-old-fan-used-universes/

I've been looking for a way to sum up my feelings over the New 52 and put forth some of my observations, but Tom Bondurant best expresses some of the same frustrations I've been having especially in terms of trying to feel some sort of connection to the characters. His comparison with the past year's progression of the Superman titles with John Byrne's first post-Crisis year is especially telling.

And one of the commenters below the article puts it best: "I feel like I'm at a party that I wasn't invited to."

SolitaireRose

I think the big thing and why I'm not on-board with the new 52 is the fact that they really did not do much (if any) world building. On most of the books we were just dropped in to stories that were already in progress. The New52 has been going for what....5 years already?

That would be like starting the show The X-Files in the middle of season 5. Characters were thrown at us that we know, but they've changed...and we don't know how, we don't know what their new background is or anything. New books like GI Combat have done a decent job of bringing us in on the ground floor, but too many of the books were "This has been going on for a while and we'll catch you up at some point if we need to", which reeks of 90's X-Men.

I think it's why I am loving Action Comics and dropping so many other books...with Action, we are in on the ground floor as Superman is learning WHY he needs his secret identity, how he learned to use his powers and so on. You need to do those sorts of things if you are building a universe. If you just drop people in and expect them to figure it out...

Well, just look at the sales figures and decide for yourself.

Chuck_Melville

SolitaireRose said:

I think the big thing and why I'm not on-board with the new 52 is the fact that they really did not do much (if any) world building. On most of the books we were just dropped in to stories that were already in progress. The New52 has been going for what....5 years already?

That would be like starting the show The X-Files in the middle of season 5. Characters were thrown at us that we know, but they've changed...and we don't know how, we don't know what their new background is or anything. New books like GI Combat have done a decent job of bringing us in on the ground floor, but too many of the books were "This has been going on for a while and we'll catch you up at some point if we need to", which reeks of 90's X-Men.

I think it's why I am loving Action Comics and dropping so many other books...with Action, we are in on the ground floor as Superman is learning WHY he needs his secret identity, how he learned to use his powers and so on. You need to do those sorts of things if you are building a universe. If you just drop people in and expect them to figure it out...

Well, just look at the sales figures and decide for yourself.

I think that's what the upcoming zero issues are supposed to do: fill in the five-year gap before the first issues. But that seems a little late in coming, especially as several books were cancelled since the 52 began; we're not going to get to see their backstories.

One of the other problems I have with the new 52 is that most of the stories take so lo-o-o-ong to tell. Animal Man and Swamp Thing have both been the entire past year building up to the Rotworld story, and they're only now just getting to the prologue!? Forget it. My patience is exhausted there. And I haven't been very impressed with the story thus far as is.

random73

Normally i am an advocate for the slow decompresion of story in that i want my writers to take their time to craft a tale BUT there are WAY too may titles out there (both DC & Marvel) that are running 6 or 8 or more issue arcs that the story does not call for. I was recently reading some old Firestorm issuse and loved the one and done stories followed by the occasional 2 parter with story threads weaving through to overall story and lending consistency to the world but not plodding through one story for 12 issues. Aquaman's story "the Others" is a perfect example of this.

Chuck_Melville

Actually, the Aquaman book is one of the few I haven't been bothered by. The stories have only been a few issues long in each case, with a couple of shorter ones in-between; The Others is only up to the 3rd or 4th chapter, and I'm finding it and the sub-plots interesting.

And even a year-long story can be okay if the story is interesting enough. I was bored to tears through most of Batman's Court Of Owls storyline (and I was probably the only one who felt that way, judging by sales), but Jonathan Hickman's FF series over at Marvel has me captivated through the first three trades and I can't wait for the next one to come out. (Seriously, my jaw kept dropping at the end of every chapter in the first volume alone.)

batlaw

I dont see what all the fuss is about the Court of Owls story either. Pretty mediocre and unoriginal imho. I agree alot with solitaire. Much the same how One Year later took DC off the rails. They never recovered from that fiasco IMO and everything just kept getting worse.

random73

Chuck_Melville said:

Actually, the Aquaman book is one of the few I haven't been bothered by. The stories have only been a few issues long in each case, with a couple of shorter ones in-between; The Others is only up to the 3rd or 4th chapter, and I'm finding it and the sub-plots interesting.

And even a year-long story can be okay if the story is interesting enough. I was bored to tears through most of Batman's Court Of Owls storyline (and I was probably the only one who felt that way, judging by sales), but Jonathan Hickman's FF series over at Marvel has me captivated through the first three trades and I can't wait for the next one to come out. (Seriously, my jaw kept dropping at the end of every chapter in the first volume alone.)

Aquaman is only 4 issues in to the others right now but the solicitation in the August Previews for comics shipping in November reads The Other CONTINUES...not even concludes but continues. I think that is way too long. An I've liked and collected this Aquaman up until this point, I thought issue #4 was a lot of fun.

I agree a year long story can be a lot of fun. If the story is being served. I'm seeing a lot if 3 issues stories stretched to six issues to fit the "trade" expectation that "pad" the story unnessicarily. For a $3.99 issue I do not have patience for "filler". Regardless of what Brian Michael Bendis says, people do not want the $3.99 books.

random73

Don't piss on my leg Brian Bendis and tell me it's raining.

Chuck_Melville

I don't have any problems with Bendis' stories, but I agree with you that we do not want the $3.99 price tags. I don't know where he figures that we do.

SolitaireRose

random73 said:

For a $3.99 issue I do not have patience for "filler". Regardless of what Brian Michael Bendis says, people do not want the $3.99 books.

Then why are 9 of the top 10 selling comics $3.99? I'm not saying that to be snarky, I'm saying it because the facts don't line up with the opinion.

For both a retail and publishing point of view, the market is just fine with $4 comics, and while fans are complaining, they have been complaining ever since comics when from 10 cents to 12 cents.

Or, to put it another way, in the 90's, people on-line complained that there were too many X-Men books, and NO ONE gave a damn about them, yet the top 10 was usually 5 - 7 X-Men related comics....so how do you fault publishers for putting out more books like that? If 9 of the top 10 books were space operas, you'd see a lot more space operas.

random73

He had made a statement on the ole Twitter feed the other day that since Marvel's top sellers are $3.99 books that MUST be what people want. It couldn't possibly be that Marvel has the highest price tag on their most popular books that fans buy in spite of the extra cost and they cut the smaller titles (oh I din't know like say the Defenders) out if their comics budget. No wonder a new title can't make 12 issues.

batlaw

I quit superman and xmen in the 90s because of that practice and I loved those books. The books suffered and the companies eventually suffered as well.

Chuck_Melville

batlaw said:

I quit superman and xmen in the 90s because of that practice and I loved those books. The books suffered and the companies eventually suffered as well.

I dunno about that. I thought the Superman books were actually at their peak during the 90's with five regular titles and a handful of ancillaries (Steel, Superboy, Supergirl, etc). The five main titles, in my opinion, managed a balance between separate identities and a solid continuity among themselves, making it feel like a weekly. And the stories were, for the most part, quite good and enjoyable. And I don't think the series suffered any, creatively or financially.

Whereas the X-Men I gave up on in the late 80's for various reasons (declining quality of writing, straying storylines, too many titles, etc) and, except for the Morrison run and the occasional cross-over with books I do buy, I haven't been back. Somehow, despite that, I don't think their sales suffered either.

batlaw

I just remember how boring and expensive all the books became. You had to buy everything to get the story and you would have to drudge though multiple issues of nothing happening so they could stretch everything accross all the senseless books.
I got so sick of entire issues of Xbooks that were nothing more than two characters sitting at a cafe having a conversation. Although i agree there were some great Superman stories at the time, they eventually did the same thing. Whole issues that did nothing but direct you to some other superbook you had no interest in. They just took it too far. It was a ploy that worked at first but people got wise (and sick) of it and it ultimately bit them in the butt.

Chuck_Melville

I just remember how boring and expensive all the books became. You had to buy everything to get the story and you would have to drudge though multiple issues of nothing happening so they could stretch everything accross all the senseless books.
I got so sick of entire issues of Xbooks that were nothing more than two characters sitting at a cafe having a conversation. Although i agree there were some great Superman stories at the time, they eventually did the same thing. Whole issues that did nothing but direct you to some other superbook you had no interest in. They just took it too far. It was a ploy that worked at first but people got wise (and sick) of it and it ultimately bit them in the butt.

Okay, well, I guess we'll have to disagree over whether nothing happened over the course of several issues; I felt there was a great deal going on, especially when it came to developing characters, the main and the supporting. That's one of the things I fell is lacking in the current New 52, and that was what I felt those '90's Superman titles gave me so much of.

Toby

SolitaireRose said:

Well, just look at the sales figures and decide for yourself.

SR,
Could you elaborate? I don't follow the figures and at this point I was wondering if the increase in sales ala the end justified the means rationale or you meant that sales are now declining paralleling the ultimate demise of the new 52?

thanks

Toby

Have the fellas had a one year retrospective on the new 52 like this column and the well-written article referenced at the intro? If so, please link it. If not, someone please suggest it.

I'm saddened that it's so hard to pick up a long run of the new 52 titles because ebay has the prices so inflated. So much so, that I have abandoned trying to collect a year's of a few titles that interest me for just continuing to be a silver Marvel and DC collector.

SolitaireRose

This is the best analysis of sales I've seen: http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/08/03/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-july-2012/

For the top books, things are fine, but once you get down the chart, the drops are pretty scary over the last 6 months usually between 15 and 30%.

And just to add, the top selling DC books? $3.99...

CaptShazam

The initial buzz is off the New 52. Sales #'s will drop over the next few months and eventually level off except when propped up by some cross over event. Then the suits at DC are going to get it in their heads that there is too much continuity in DC that is scaring off new readers and plan a small reboot. Marvel NOW is most likely to repeat the same process.

elkinscs

I, personally, am enjoying the new 52 but that may be because I was a marvel reader beforehand. Over the last year my comics have gone from strictly marvel to strictly dc plus spider-man and daredevil(not to say i didnt like or follow dc, i was just living on a college stdent's budget). As far as world- building goes I'm just kind of assuming everything is the same unless they tell u it's not. I don't think the point of tn52 was so much changing continuity as it was de-aging characters and throwing a bunch of #1s at the market to see what sticks. While certain books have become a mess (superman, hawkman, green arrow), most of them are putting out good stories in what feels, to me, like a younger, fresher, dcu.

Chuck_Melville

elkinscs said:

I, personally, am enjoying the new 52 but that may be because I was a marvel reader beforehand. Over the last year my comics have gone from strictly marvel to strictly dc plus spider-man and daredevil(not to say i didnt like or follow dc, i was just living on a college stdent's budget). As far as world- building goes I'm just kind of assuming everything is the same unless they tell u it's not. I don't think the point of tn52 was so much changing continuity as it was de-aging characters and throwing a bunch of #1s at the market to see what sticks. While certain books have become a mess (superman, hawkman, green arrow), most of them are putting out good stories in what feels, to me, like a younger, fresher, dcu.

But they did change a lot of the continuity -- except for Green Lantern and Batman, and even theirs got bent pretty heavily by the rest of the DC Continuity changes. Most of the characters aren't the same characters I used to read and enjoy, and, worse, are not characters I can really relate to in any way. Very few of them seem likeable or even approachable in any way, and a lot of them seem to have abandoned the original concepts or tropes connected with their brands. As a result, I find myself dropping more and more DC books each month. You may see a younger and fresher DCU, but I only see a surprisingly amateurish mess for the most part.

SolitaireRose

Chuck_Melville said:

elkinscs said:

I, personally, am enjoying the new 52 but that may be because I was a marvel reader beforehand. Over the last year my comics have gone from strictly marvel to strictly dc plus spider-man and daredevil(not to say i didnt like or follow dc, i was just living on a college stdent's budget). As far as world- building goes I'm just kind of assuming everything is the same unless they tell u it's not. I don't think the point of tn52 was so much changing continuity as it was de-aging characters and throwing a bunch of #1s at the market to see what sticks. While certain books have become a mess (superman, hawkman, green arrow), most of them are putting out good stories in what feels, to me, like a younger, fresher, dcu.

But they did change a lot of the continuity -- except for Green Lantern and Batman, and even theirs got bent pretty heavily by the rest of the DC Continuity changes. Most of the characters aren't the same characters I used to read and enjoy, and, worse, are not characters I can really relate to in any way. Very few of them seem likeable or even approachable in any way, and a lot of them seem to have abandoned the original concepts or tropes connected with their brands. As a result, I find myself dropping more and more DC books each month. You may see a younger and fresher DCU, but I only see a surprisingly amateurish mess for the most part.

I agree. DC now reads like 90's Marvel to me (unlikable characters, Big Hidden Conspiracies, hard to read art... I'm glad it's doing well for them, sales wise, and I'm glad that I can follow more indy books like The Massive and Fatale with my former DC money.

David_D

CaptShazam said:

The initial buzz is off the New 52. Sales #'s will drop over the next few months and eventually level off except when propped up by some cross over event. Then the suits at DC are going to get it in their heads that there is too much continuity in DC that is scaring off new readers and plan a small reboot. Marvel NOW is most likely to repeat the same process.

Except that- and I defer to Hibbs knowledge on this- the fact that if there was going to be an initial buzz and then a drop off to old numbers we should have seen it by now. And that is why he sees it as a success. That some of these new or renewed readers have settled in.

Chuck_Melville

SolitaireRose said:

Chuck_Melville said:

elkinscs said:

I, personally, am enjoying the new 52 but that may be because I was a marvel reader beforehand. Over the last year my comics have gone from strictly marvel to strictly dc plus spider-man and daredevil(not to say i didnt like or follow dc, i was just living on a college stdent's budget). As far as world- building goes I'm just kind of assuming everything is the same unless they tell u it's not. I don't think the point of tn52 was so much changing continuity as it was de-aging characters and throwing a bunch of #1s at the market to see what sticks. While certain books have become a mess (superman, hawkman, green arrow), most of them are putting out good stories in what feels, to me, like a younger, fresher, dcu.

But they did change a lot of the continuity -- except for Green Lantern and Batman, and even theirs got bent pretty heavily by the rest of the DC Continuity changes. Most of the characters aren't the same characters I used to read and enjoy, and, worse, are not characters I can really relate to in any way. Very few of them seem likeable or even approachable in any way, and a lot of them seem to have abandoned the original concepts or tropes connected with their brands. As a result, I find myself dropping more and more DC books each month. You may see a younger and fresher DCU, but I only see a surprisingly amateurish mess for the most part.

I agree. DC now reads like 90's Marvel to me (unlikable characters, Big Hidden Conspiracies, hard to read art... I'm glad it's doing well for them, sales wise, and I'm glad that I can follow more indy books like The Massive and Fatale with my former DC money.

Exactly. I hadn't made the connection with the 90's Marvel books, but I think you hit it right on the head. I dropped a lot of Marvels during that period for very much the same reason. I'm not yet at the point where I can afford to pick up more indy books, but I expect I will be before very many more months pass.

CaptShazam

David_D said:

CaptShazam said:

The initial buzz is off the New 52. Sales #'s will drop over the next few months and eventually level off except when propped up by some cross over event. Then the suits at DC are going to get it in their heads that there is too much continuity in DC that is scaring off new readers and plan a small reboot. Marvel NOW is most likely to repeat the same process.

Except that- and I defer to Hibbs knowledge on this- the fact that if there was going to be an initial buzz and then a drop off to old numbers we should have seen it by now. And that is why he sees it as a success. That some of these new or renewed readers have settled in.

It has not completely happened yet but it is starting to happen now

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/08/03/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-july-2012/

To summarize, between issues 5 and 10, there were 43 New 52 titles that had sales drop by a double digit percentage. 29 of those were by 20% or greater. 12 were by 30% or greater, and 3 by greater than 40% (I am looking at you Hawkman!)

Is is still better than what it was before the reboot. Yes. Will it be in another 6 to 12 months, maybe not.

elkinscs

I don't really see the 90's marvel comparison. Maybe it is because I am just now reading some of those books through the lens of what current comics look like, but those feel almost unreadable. There are certainly flops in tn52, but I think we need to be a little more open-minded about the changes. A while back I was discussing the new Shazam with someone on another thread. He hated how radically different the character was but I made the argument that all comics characters are completely different than they were initially conceived, but we don't really notice because those changes occurred over time. Batman originally carried a gun for god's sake. I still think most of the core elements of the characters are there and, while there are some messes that certainly need to be cleaned up (and I have faith they will), I am enjoying fresh perspectives on these classic characters (again, making Mogo sized exceptions for Superman, Green Arrow and Hawkman).