Episode 1686 Talkback - Top 5 Legacy Heroes
Adam_Murdough
Posts: 506
The time has come for a Top 5 episode--one that salutes the heritage of heroism! With a welcome assist from our brother-in-arms Ian Levenstein, we hand down our lists of personal favorite comics legacy characters. Any hero who's ever succeeded to, filled in for, been inspired/influenced by, or stolen from another character is fair game! Top 5 Fever: Pass it on! (2:36:33)
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Well, that's me when I see the Geeks 1) have dropped a Top 5 episode, and 2) It's 2 hours and 36 minutes long.
EDIT: To add, I just remembered that I purchased a whole bunch of Spider-Girl digests at @wildpigcomics back in the day, at one of their in-between sales while the store was occasionally popping up at its Kenilworth location before the re-opening. This purchase contributed to making my friend's daughter a huge fan of comics, and to this day, even as she is now in her teens, I send her Ms. Marvel collections for Christmas to read. Which, according to her mother, she reads through immediately after receiving!
5. Wally West/Flash — The longest unbroken run of comics I still own is volume two of The Flash. As Ian said, the main attraction to Wally is the development of his character throughout the series (at least through the end of Waid’s run as writer). Mike Baron, Bill Messner-Loebs, and Mark Waid (based off of Marv Wolfman’s work)—particularly the latter two—really fleshed out Wally’s motives and character traits, and made him a nuanced, fully realized character. (Sidenote: I have to say I am a bit more sympathetic to Barry than Ian. I see him not as boring, but as the straight man to the Rogues’ Gallery’s outlandish wise guy—the Dean Martin to the Rogues’ Gallery’s Jerry Lewis, if you will. They work better together than apart.)
4. Kate Bishop/Hawkeye — She’s basically a better adjusted version of the second Huntress in a Hawkeye costume, but she’s been so well written, from the original Young Avengers series to the various Hawkeye titles. She’s just a charming character, and a lot of fun.
3. John Smith/Jack Staff — This might be stretching the “legacy” aspect a bit, but Jack Staff was born out of a rejected Union Jack story Paul Grist pitched to Marvel. Thank goodness Marvel passed on it, because the Jack Staff series is so much better than any Union Jack story could ever have been thanks to Grist’s unique storytelling style, and all the other analog characters Grist added to the mix. Man, I miss this book.
2. Linda and Eric Strauss/Dr. Fate — I've talked about this before, but the J.M. DeMatteis/Shawn McManus series is what got me back into comics. Just a wonderful, thoughtful, emotional, funny series. I don't think it’s ever been collected, which is an absolute crime. I've always liked the visual of Dr. Fate, but this series made the hero relatable and human.
1. Jack Knight/Starman — I mean, the entire book is about legacy. Chris and Shane said everything else that needs to be said. Probably my all-time favorite superhero comic.
Top Ten Alternates (in alphabetical order by code name)
Ryan Kendall/Black Condor — I really enjoyed his short-lived solo title.
Brian Braddock/Captain Britain — Thanks mostly to Alan Davis, but I was fascinated with the character since his Marvel Team-Up appearance.
John Stewart/Green Lantern — No, he isn’t a comic book artist, Ian, but he was an architect. Cosmic Odyssey and especially Mosaic made him a deep, interesting character.
Matthew Tyler/Hourman — The android Hourman. Great solo series—much better than the Rick Tyler Hourman miniseries pitch I was working on when it came out.
Zachary Johnson/Jack-in-the-Box — Like Adam said, great visual with a great gimmick. Probably would have worked his way into my top five if he had more stories.
Kit Walker/The Phantom — Perhaps the first legacy superhero? Yeah, mostly a newspaper strip hero, but he had some really good comics at Charlton drawn by Jim Aparo and Don Newton.
Jennifer Walters/She-Hulk — After John Byrne worked his magic on her, she became a really fun character, and strong in the real way (to quote Steven Universe).
Ystina/Shining Knight — Along with Frankenstein, one of the most interesting concept reimaginings to come out of Grant Morrison’s Seven Soldiers. Nicely developed in Demon Knights.
Bruce Wayne Jr. & Clark Kent Jr./The (Original) Super-Sons — The hip, with-it offspring of their stiff super-dads. Haney-rific!
Beta Ray Bill/Thor — Great design. Great introduction. Walt Simonson.
And good choices! Totally forgot about Kate Bishop, but at least she falls under Young Avengers as one of my alternates. :)
EDIT: Just got to number 2 when @i_am_scifi mentioned Miles. Couldn't have said it better. Great character.
As for my own list, I’m afraid it’s all DC. There are many characters I love from Marvel that would fit the legacy character definition, but I couldn’t leave any of these DC characters off of my final list.
1. Starman (Jack Knight)
2. Green Arrow (Connor Hawke)
3. Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
4. Dick Grayson (mostly as Nightwing)
5. Brainiac 5
1. Billy Kessler - Cobra's Commander's Son would grow into a member of the Arashikage Clan and one of the great underappreciated heroes in the history of comics.
2. Wally West - Even though I began reading comics during the Barry Allen years and Wally has one of the laziest origins ever, this is my Flash, period.
3.Ted Kord - Ever since I was lucky enough to find some Modern Comics reprints of the Charlton Steve Ditko material in a bargin bin as a young boy, I've loved this character. This retelling of the Beetle origins by Len Wein and Gil Kane is amazing and well worth seeking out.
4. John Walker - His sincere effort, warts and all, to fill the shoes of Steve Rogers is one of the best Captain America story arcs of all time.
5.The Star Child - Star Brand's Ken Connell's son arrived through the vision of John Byrne to further shake the already rocky New Universe to it's core.
Before I get to my own picks, there's one very MINOR nit to pick with Shane, who mentioned that the JSA's history extended back to World War I. It's actually World War II, and I suspect Shane actually knew that but simply misspoke.
Okay, with that out of the way, here are my top five legacy heroes. Fair warning: #5 and #4 may stretch the definition of "legacy" to the breaking point...but hear me out!
5. The Squadron Supreme: Remember wondering who would win in a fight between Superhero A and Superhero B? Well, sometimes those prayers would be answered when a publisher would pit two fan favorites against each other (usually the result of some kind of misunderstanding). But what if the characters you wanted in your grudge match were owned by two different publishers? Even as a kid, I was aware of a mysterious, insurmountable barrier that prevented cross-company heroes from meeting, battling or even mentioning the other....so it looked hopeless. However, as one of the very first fans-turned-pro, writer Roy Thomas figured out a clever solution to this seemingly intractable problem by creating evil analogs of the competing company’s characters! In Avengers #70 (1969), Thomas pitted the Avengers against The Squadron Sinister, an obvious criminal version of DC’s Justice League of America. Years later, an alternate Earth was revealed to be the home of The Squadron Supreme, whose membership included Hyperion (Superman), the Whizzer (Flash), Dr. Spectrum (Green Lantern) and Nighthawk (Batman) later expanded their membership to include doppelgangers of other 70’s era Justice League members, including Tom Thumb (the Atom), Cap'n Hawk (Hawkman), the Golden Archer (Green Arrow) and Lady Lark (Black Canary). While clearly weaker reflections of their iconic DC Comics counterparts, I still found the Squadron Supreme an oddly touching example of a legacy extended across the corporate divide. In a way, it was as if the Squadron Supreme was a "descendent" of the JLA, whose presence within the Marvel Universe reflected (however dimly) the legacy of DC's greatest superteam.
4. Superman (Kal-L): One of the greatest things to come out of DC's multiverse concept was the novel idea that discarded bits of continuity from Superman's early history could be retroactively shaped into a unique version of the Man of Steel. For much of the Bronze Age, Kal-L was considered not only the first Superman, but the progenitor and ultimate inspiration for all costumed superheroes...exactly as he was here in the comic book history of "Earth Prime". Although this wonderful meta-legacy officially came to an end in the closing pages of Crisis on Infinite Earths, I still cherish it.
3. Starman: You guys said it all. James Robinson took a nothing-special 2nd tier Golden Age superhero and forged an eternal masterpiece of legacy and comic book storytelling.
2. The Phantom: Arguably the first costumed superhero before Superman, Kit Walker was only one of a long family line of Phantoms dating back to the 16th century. Taking "legacy" to perhaps its most extreme level, every son of a Phantom was trained to one day take their father's place as "The Ghost Who Walks".
1. Barry Allen: A rather obvious choice, but I wanted to give some love and respect to arguably the VERY FIRST legacy hero in both the narrative and meta sense. Not only was Barry the first superhero to assume the powers and name of a previous superhero, but was also a FAN of said superhero (whom he originally "met" as a comic book character). As we all know, many speedster characters came from that original legacy connection (including Wally West), but the handing of the baton from Jay to Barry is an epochal moment in comic book history that can't be overstated....and a slam-dunk choice for #1. Oh, and here's my own illustration of my guys:
My top 5:
1. Tim Drake
2. Miles Morales
3. Kamala Kahn
4. X-23
5. Cassandra Cain
1) Superior Spider-Man
2) Scott Lang
3) Bizarro (Does he not count? Or did I miss Murd mentioning him??)
4) Beta Ray Bill
5) Guy Gardner (*)
* - Almost exclusively because of this:
1. Miles Morales (Spider-Man)
2. Kamala Kahn (Ms. Marvel)
3. Kate Bishop (Hawkeye)
4. Danny Rand (Iron Fist)
5. X-23 (Wolverine)
As you can see from my avatar, I'm quite fond of ol' Bizarro myself...but I still say he's a villain.
After I posted my top 5, I regretted not including Jack Knight/Starman, so, fortunately for him, a spot has now opened up on the roster! Welcome to the squad, Jack!
The Phantom
Green Lantern
Dick Grayson
Wally West
Marvel Boy/Quasar
Alternates
Damian Wayne
The Legion of Super-Heroes
Air Wave, woohoo!
Duela Dent!
Damage!
Kept waiting for a mention of Matt Wagner's Grendel, but I guess that one would be more relevant to this podcast's villainous sequel.
Anyway, great job guys. Loved every minute of this.
I was THIS close to including Grendel, Dave, but it would have meant no shout out to the New U...Magniconte
I totally agree with everything Murd was saying about Damage too. It was fantastic to see what Geoff Johns was doing with him in the Justice Society of America - especially the relationship with Judomaster (who oddly enough is yet another great Legacy character - kudos Mr Johns). It's just a shame that Grant was killed off and more so because it was Mr Johns who did the killing!
Here's a thought; seeing as Sandy Hawkins received a bit of a mention - could you also consider the original Sandman, Wesley Dodds, a legacy character due to the retcon of Wesley being inspired by Morpheus/Dream/Sandman of the Endless? ;-)
Also, great to see all the mentions of Kit Walker - The Phantom - here in the discussion. I'm sure he is the original legacy character in comics and also the reason I got into reading in the first place. it wasn't always easy to find the Marvel & DC comics Down Under when I was a lad but The Phantom was always in stock and readily available. He's definitely a character with such a rich history and one who doesn't nearly get enough attention.
Anyway, another excellent episode and one which will definitely get a re-listen soon!
5. Terror - Perhaps stretching the legacy concept a bit, Terror is an eternal being whose body is made up of dead parts culled from others. He absorbs the memories and powers of those who make up his body, so he's oddly a legacy character physically and mentally, but not by title or name.
4. U.S. Agent - Enjoyed reading the tales of the replacement Captain America, and still seek out his adventures wherever I can.
3. Black Panther - As legacy as it gets, his title as both king and hero being passed down from his father.
2. Eddie March - One of the earliest replacements for Tony Stark as Iron Man, his story of heroism in the face of death moved me.
1. Guy Gardner - Such a great combination of foil and comrade for the other lanterns. Since I first learned of him by pulling the late Green Lantern/early Green Lantern Corps issues from back issue bins, he's been one of my favorite characters. The "One Punch!" moment mentioned above did help seal the deal on that.
John Stewart/Green Lantern
Wally West/Flash
Miles Morales/Spider-Man
Jennifer Walters/She-Hulk
Jane Foster/Thor