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'Superman' was frustrating, says George Pérez

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    To be fair, though, Simone, Snyder and Capullo may be having a different and more positive experience. It could be that, despite whatever is going on at the top, that closer to the work Mike Marts is running a more creator-friendly office than Matt Idelson.
    Frankly, I think they delivered better books that better met the goals of the relaunch. That may not be all there is to it, of course.

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    DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586
    The biggest frustration with George Perez's Superman is that it wasn't very good. And I happened to enjoy it for a few issues, but I got the feeling I was squarely in the minority. I like(d) Perez's art for many years, but I get a little skeptical when I hear the author of what was by many accounts a decidedly mediocre book blaming others. I don't hear Gail Simone or Snyder or Capullo complaining.
    Love his art as well, and I agree with you. I felt the book was not good. It took me two issues to come to that.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    I'm in no way questioning Perez's character. I'm questioning his perspective. I highly doubt that what DC editorial wanted for Superman's relaunch was a book so packed with text that there was hardly any real estate left for the drawings to do any talking - drawings, I might add, which were filled with postage stamp sized figures in typical George Perez 1981 New Teen Titans style. It looked to me like Perez had it his way PLENTY.
    How much of that excessive verbiage was the result of interference and directives and suggestions and revisions and scrambling by the Oversight Committee?

    The narrative on those books had at least four different voices. Now I understand why.
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    ZhurrieZhurrie Posts: 617
    How much of that excessive verbiage was the result of interference and directives and suggestions and revisions and scrambling by the Oversight Committee?

    The narrative on those books had at least four different voices. Now I understand why.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
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    JDickJDick Posts: 206
    Over at Bleeding Cool, George sums up a lot of what's wrong woth contemporary comics (emphasis mine):
    And given when I worked on Legion Of Three Worlds with Geoff Johns… Geoff Johns was an enormous fan of mine and wanted to do a George Perez comic. At this point DC, much to my regret is now going so that all the scripts are fully scripted as opposed to plot, which you draw and then the script comes in a lot more input into the story. Geoff sent me a full script. And the most humongous panel description I have ever seen with all this stuff going on in just one page, how anyone, even me, fit all that. And then Geoff explained it, what he did was take my Crisis On Infinite Earths and dissected it and tried to describe the panel that I drew in Crisis On Infinite Earths that’s what it would look like, if you describe the panel that I did, that’s what it looked like, I had never seen it written in text before, oh my God, no wonder people thought I was insane. That’s what a George Perez panel was to him, that’s how he broke it down.

    The thing I had to remind him, yes because that’s not what Marv asked for. Marv say, these characters fight, then I made it into a George Perez panel. If you are writing what you consider a George Perez panel, you give me nothing to do.
    Non-visual people coming up with visual descriptions are bad for comics.

    Thankfully, Johns let George, y'know, BE GEORGE:
    So from that point for the only time in his career, Geoff Johns went from full script to plotting, and let me be George Perez again.
    http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/06/24/george-perez-talking-about-being-rewritten-at-dc-comics/

    I'm not sure what this has to do with the Superman situation. Wasn't he writing and drawing breakdowns on the book? He could plot it however (full script or just a plot)...or if DC wants a full script do some breakdowns and write the script off that.
    Also...why complain about the artist not having equal footing with the writer then pack the book full of so many words?
    No matter how it shook out (and I am sure there is plenty of blame to go around) the New 52 Superman book just isn't very good. I hope they can figure out how to fix it because I'm not sure how many people are even still reading it...esp. competing with a Grant Morrison Action Comics.
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    I'm not sure what this has to do with the Superman situation. Wasn't he writing and drawing breakdowns on the book? He could plot it however (full script or just a plot)...or if DC wants a full script do some breakdowns and write the script off that.
    Also...why complain about the artist not having equal footing with the writer then pack the book full of so many words?
    I'm sorry; I thought my conclusion was clear (I forget that not everyone lives in my brain and doesn't see the connections that I make). My takeaway was that every facet of production was being micromanaged, rather than letting writers write and artists make the visual decisions.

    My apologies for any confusion. :)
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    JDickJDick Posts: 206
    How much of that excessive verbiage was the result of interference and directives and suggestions and revisions and scrambling by the Oversight Committee?

    The narrative on those books had at least four different voices. Now I understand why.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
    No way to know that for sure.
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    ZhurrieZhurrie Posts: 617
    hrmm... did you miss that bit where I mentioned we sat and spoke at length together about a host of topics recently? @WetRats and @steve_bryant are exactly correct and it is known for sure.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    hrmm... did you miss that bit where I mentioned we sat and spoke at length together about a host of topics recently? @WetRats and @steve_bryant are exactly correct and it is known for sure.
    I'm really glad to find this out. Superman #1 was such a mess, I couldn't understand how Perez could have been the creator. Besides being an incredibly classy guy, he's also an incredibly competent storyteller. Look at his Wonder Woman #1 from 198-whatever: it was incredibly dense storytelling, but it was also a really good read.

    I should have realized, when Giffen "took over" the book and it remained the same mess, that something else was going on.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    I should have realized, when Giffen "took over" the book and it remained the same mess, that something else was going on.
    QFT. If you have Perez and then Giffen on your book and it's still incoherent and poorly told? There's something screwed up somewhere (and NOT with Perez and Giffen!)

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    Given that the inter-book continuity has been so... inconsistent, it's not surprising to hear that the cart is leading the horse, nor that Grant is apparently being given a pass when it comes to play with everyone else (though, to be honest, I like his stuff better than a lot of the others). I wonder if Johns is being given the same pass? It would certainly make sense.

    Not gonna lie, though... I'm a little disappointed to see that George's complaints didn't continue with "And that costume! I mean..." :))
    You HAVE seen George's costume designs, haven't you? Disco Nightwing, Jericho, Kole, Harbiniger, his Iron Man, Jack of Hearts??? His designs, more often than not, look like a wierd combination of Kirby leftovers, mixed with Renaissance Faire, mixed with Donnie and Marie... I love George, and his incredible artwork, dearly, but those who are tone-deaf rarely hear tone-deafness in others.
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    I have the feeling the making comics in committee really crushes any creative vision. I suspect this was the problem with the Green Lantern movie, too many cooks in the kitchen.
    I would imagine that is often true, but there are also big exceptions-- one of the best and most entertaining things the DCU has ever done for me as a reader was 52, which was written by a team, in close collaboration with essentially an art director doing I think all the breakdowns (Giffen) and a strong editor. And that team produced fantastic work.
    I think there's a pretty big difference between a team and a committee.

    I know I'd rather be on a team than in a committee.
    What's even worse, is taking direction on a project from a committee.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794

    You HAVE seen George's costume designs, haven't you? Disco Nightwing, Jericho, Kole, Harbiniger, his Iron Man, Jack of Hearts??? His designs, more often than not, look like a wierd combination of Kirby leftovers, mixed with Renaissance Faire, mixed with Donnie and Marie... I love George, and his incredible artwork, dearly, but those who are tone-deaf rarely hear tone-deafness in others.
    Hey, no fair! I dug Harbinger's costume! :)

    The rest...yeah...you got me on those...I have no defense. :)

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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    You HAVE seen George's costume designs, haven't you? Disco Nightwing, Jericho, Kole, Harbiniger, his Iron Man, Jack of Hearts??? His designs, more often than not, look like a wierd combination of Kirby leftovers, mixed with Renaissance Faire, mixed with Donnie and Marie... I love George, and his incredible artwork, dearly, but those who are tone-deaf rarely hear tone-deafness in others.
    Disparaging Kirby, Renfaires and Donny & Marie?

    Mr. Bone, you'll be hearing from my second.

    image
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    JDickJDick Posts: 206
    hrmm... did you miss that bit where I mentioned we sat and spoke at length together about a host of topics recently? @WetRats and @steve_bryant are exactly correct and it is known for sure.
    From one persons point of view. All I'm saying is that there is more than one side to this story.

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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    hrmm... did you miss that bit where I mentioned we sat and spoke at length together about a host of topics recently? @WetRats and @steve_bryant are exactly correct and it is known for sure.
    From one persons point of view. All I'm saying is that there is more than one side to this story.
    Do you actually know another side, or are you merely playing devil's advocate?
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    ZhurrieZhurrie Posts: 617
    Yeah, I'm all for being open-minded but I think the person *themself* and a person of George's caliber is a little bit of a stretch. Even in his statement he was about as even-keeled, classy, and honest as could be. As I mentioned months ago, there will continue to be more coming out in the public I'm sure of it from a number of sources... (it already is) what is the answer then? Everyone has a problem but DC and a select few people there? You've already seen young talent speak out and walk away and you are seeing more and more veteran talent do the same, how do you account for that?
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    hrmm... did you miss that bit where I mentioned we sat and spoke at length together about a host of topics recently? @WetRats and @steve_bryant are exactly correct and it is known for sure.
    From one persons point of view. All I'm saying is that there is more than one side to this story.

    True. However, with the Dwayne McDuffie stories, and all of the creative shuffling post-New 52, it's a safe bet that there's a larger problem than just one guy getting hamstrung by editorial.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    edited June 2012
    You've already seen young talent speak out and walk away and you are seeing more and more veteran talent do the same, how do you account for that?
    The dickish answer, the honest answer, the unpopular answer, and not the answer I like, is "There are plenty of other fish in the sea who are willing to do what we tell them."

    For every one of us who wishes to wear our integrity on our sleeve like a badge of honor, there are ten people willing to draw Superman for the paycheck and the exposure. Now, hopefully they're good. Hopefully, they'll build an audience. Hopefully when that audience establishes itself, these same artists will tell DC or Marvel to kiss off and go do their brilliant creator-owned work.

    Of course, quality of the books may diminish, but what do you fanboys care? As long as we put out a yearly event and hype it enough to make you care about it, put the White Queen in a thong and have her shake her ass on the J. Scott Campbell drawn cover, and occasionally bring in a superstar to do a one-shot book to keep you collecting...you'll keep buying. You can't help yourself. You'll come in for your weekly fleecing and you'll buy what we put out because we tell you to!

    And sure, you're gonna feel bad about George Perez leaving...until you see Filipino superstar Marvo Himosa! Lookit how he draws women! And you want action sequences? Check out how he has Cyborg punching out Green Lantern! Why are they fighting? Who gives a shit? It's CYBORG FIGHTING GREEN LANTERN! It doesn't have to make any goddamn sense! Now give us your $4, towel off and come back next week. And don't forget to say "Baaa!" next time!

    What? Himosa got popular? Wants to go do his own book? Well EFF him! I've got twenty other guys just like him lined up to do art chores and they're all just as good! And you're going to like them all! Because we're going to TELL you you like them! George Perez? Might as well be Perez Hilton for all I care!

    This is not me being "Evil Captain Kirk" from "Mirror, Mirror". :) You wanna side with Perez and the other artists who feel DC treats them unfairly? Stop buying their books. Even the ones you like. Even the ones where the artists aren't complaining about how they're treated. All or nothing. Otherwise you're not sending a message at all...you're just telling the dealer you don't like Brown Bettys, you prefer Blue Ice. Either way, he's taking your money.

    i know I can't do it because I'm digging Demon Knights and Supergirl too much (both of which are drawn by an artist from I believe Italy and Turkey, respectfully (just in case you think DC won't look outside the borders for talent)). You'll just have to take a stand for me. :)

    image

    /Ranty Rant Over.
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    ZhurrieZhurrie Posts: 617
    I have dropped all DC/Marvel from my pulls except where things were pre-ordered/DCBS. I don't even buy imprints or books from associated companies. I do actually care and do put my money where my mouth (and heart) is. If I buy any Marvel/DC I actually buy them second-hand which I've mentioned before, so that no new sale is generated.

    I agree with you. In art there are always young and upcoming creatives that are willing to be used and abused or even do spec work for a "shot." DC (and many others) are happy to oblige. I don't expect everyone to even care about the creative folks, but I do respect people that have spent their lifetime at a craft and a pursuit regardless of if I personally like their work or not and I believe they should be respected just as any proven/skilled professional. That isn't happening. Why exactly does DC need no-name or cut-rate teams? Aside from more profits it surely isn't to put out the best product possible. It is a values and fundamental judgement call.

    Personally, I have a hard time understanding how someone can love a hobby/craft centered around art and creativity but not care intensely about the creative folks that actually make it happen. That is just me though, and I know many people are content to not care or happily separate the two. I don't think anything quoted here points to any ego, grandstanding, bashing, etc. just a very talented person stating that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
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    NickNick Posts: 284


    Morrisoncon has to be the douchiest thing I have ever heard of.
    What is so "douchey" about it? I listened to the 11 O'clock episode with the promoter, and I thought it sounded like a cool, new idea. Can you elaborate?
    Sorry Nick. I'm not much of a Morrison fan to begin with. I think naming a convention after yourself is a smidge self serving. Unless it is my birthday I am not hosting an event celebrating the glory of all things ME! That is why I consider it douchey.
    I'm not a fan of him much either, I was just going to say he is not putting on the show, was just asked to attend with a bunch of his collaborators. I thought the same thing at first, that it sounded like a guy tooting his own horn, but now I think it is a cool idea, focus on one huge creator and his collaborators. Something different at least.
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    random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    Hey man, if you like it I love it.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    You'll never hear me come out AGAINST Perez (unless it's determined later that he's got a collection of little shoes somewhere). He's my beacon, the guy who got me into comics in the first place. You wanted an answer as to why he'd be prompted to say what he said. I gave it to you. Simply put: The artist isn't valued in our society right now.

    Now when I say that, I'm not saying by people like you and me. If artists weren't important to me, I wouldn't seek them out at conventions to tell them what they mean to me. I wouldn't try and support them the best way I know how, by getting commissions, buying work directly from them, etc. And I certainly wouldn't call myself one if I held them in such low regard.

    But take cold comfort - you and I are not the rest of the world. And by and large the rest of the world doesn't give two tugs who's drawing Wolverine. They just want Wolverine. And they will continue to buy Wolverine no matter who draws him (barring Fred Hembeck, in which case I'd likely be the only person buying him!) :)




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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    i know I can't do it because I'm digging Demon Knights and Supergirl too much (both of which are drawn by an artist from I believe Italy and Turkey, respectfully (just in case you think DC won't look outside the borders for talent)). You'll just have to take a stand for me. :)
    I can't quite take the high ground either.

    Flash, Wonder Woman ASW & Demon Knights are genuinely enjoyable.

    As is Legion of Superheroes.

    The rest of the line does little-to-nothing for me.

    Marvel lost me when they decided that heroes fighting heroes was more cost-effective than heroes fighting villains.

    DC's just managing to lose me from boredom.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    You'll never hear me come out AGAINST Perez (unless it's determined later that he's got a collection of little shoes somewhere). He's my beacon, the guy who got me into comics in the first place. You wanted an answer as to why he'd be prompted to say what he said. I gave it to you. Simply put: The artist isn't valued in our society right now.

    Now when I say that, I'm not saying by people like you and me. If artists weren't important to me, I wouldn't seek them out at conventions to tell them what they mean to me. I wouldn't try and support them the best way I know how, by getting commissions, buying work directly from them, etc. And I certainly wouldn't call myself one if I held them in such low regard.

    But take cold comfort - you and I are not the rest of the world. And by and large the rest of the world doesn't give two tugs who's drawing Wolverine. They just want Wolverine. And they will continue to buy Wolverine no matter who draws him (barring Fred Hembeck, in which case I'd likely be the only person buying him!) :)
    Dammit, I'd buy Hembeck's Wolverine, too.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794


    Flash, Wonder Woman ASW & Demon Knights are genuinely enjoyable.

    As is Legion of Superheroes.

    The rest of the line does little-to-nothing for me.

    DC's just managing to lose me from boredom.
    See, here's my takeaway from that - look at the titles you and I genuinely seem to be enjoying - Demon Knights, Legion, Wonder Woman, Flash, ASW, Supergirl, Aquaman, etc. - and notice who's missing from that list?

    Batman and Superman.*

    I mean there are exciting things happening in all those titles I've listed above. Great, creative storytelling and incredible artwork...and to my knowledge I've not heard any creators come out and say they're living in hell or that "The Man" is making their lives miserable.

    Perhaps working on a 2nd-tier (or even a 3rd-tier) character is the way to go? Maybe the evil committee leaves you alone if you're not working in the spotlight?

    * Feel free to dispute me and say that Supergirl is part of the Superman family. Same for Batwoman and Batgirl (both of whom have great books out right now as well with few to no grumblings that I've heard).
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    80% of comics from ten years ago suck. 85% of comics from 20 years ago suck. 90% of comics from 30 years ago suck. The stories suck, the dialogue sucks, and the art sucks. Suckity-suck and more suck.

    There are more awesome comics, artists and stories than ever before. I'm loving it. I don't get all the whining and complaining. Artists are making more money, getting more credit and exposure, and enjoying better benefits than ever. I'm a professional illustrator. You know what I get from the companies I work for? A check and (hopefully) the next job.

    I don't know what the heck is going on at DC. Or at Milton Bradley board games, or Green Giant frozen vegetables. Don't care all that much. Talk to the help at any company and half will prob. tell you it's horrible.

    That Perez Superman book was faulty as a CONCEPT, not in the particulars. He's an awesome guy, and he's no doubt telling his truth. But the bottom line is that his book was not good... not because it didn't look like something George Perez would do, but because it DID. I just read New Teen Titans #1 and thought, we'll, there's your Superman relaunch pedigree, right there.
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    JDickJDick Posts: 206


    Flash, Wonder Woman ASW & Demon Knights are genuinely enjoyable.

    As is Legion of Superheroes.

    The rest of the line does little-to-nothing for me.

    DC's just managing to lose me from boredom.
    See, here's my takeaway from that - look at the titles you and I genuinely seem to be enjoying - Demon Knights, Legion, Wonder Woman, Flash, ASW, Supergirl, Aquaman, etc. - and notice who's missing from that list?

    Batman and Superman.*

    I mean there are exciting things happening in all those titles I've listed above. Great, creative storytelling and incredible artwork...and to my knowledge I've not heard any creators come out and say they're living in hell or that "The Man" is making their lives miserable.

    Perhaps working on a 2nd-tier (or even a 3rd-tier) character is the way to go? Maybe the evil committee leaves you alone if you're not working in the spotlight?

    * Feel free to dispute me and say that Supergirl is part of the Superman family. Same for Batwoman and Batgirl (both of whom have great books out right now as well with few to no grumblings that I've heard).
    Static Shock?

    In truth maybe trying to have 52 titles of all excellent quality come out on a monthly basis is just too much to ask. Its a lot of books...I am in the Deemer category...1 Superman book, 1 Batman book...Batman has 5 titles at this point I think.
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    ZhurrieZhurrie Posts: 617
    @Torchsong, choir = me :) I know and knew what you were saying there so I definitely get it. Art and creativity are all but gone from American life right now but look at how people even still unwittingly clamor for it and find great joy in it... even stuff like the abundance of Dance, singing, design, etc. reality shows. The same people that think art and museums and opera and ballet are dumb because they aren't the fast track to money and power all sit transfixed by... art/creativity almost every evening. It is that American need to equate any pursuit directly to financial gain to be valued that is just bearing out here in comics/DC. Screw the artist, I want my $4 picture book with the jiggly bewbz and clobberin cyborgs! What, dude has diabetes and thinks he should actually get care and be treated like a human after a life of work!? Crazy talk. Damn commies. Get the next art-school dropout to work for peanuts and get my book out and on time! DC should rake in billions and the artists should be left to fend for themselves with their independent contractor status and zero stability! It just amazes me how the rest of the world can manage to get it mostly right when it comes to this stuff yet we fall in the same old traps every damn time. It's like being Sideshow Bob in a yard of rakes.
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