We didn't have one before Liefeld got there. Why should it be any different after? Pre-Liefeld, Hawkman was an incoherent mess, with Liefeld it was just a mess.
Oh, I don't know... I thought Geoff Johns did a pretty readable Hawkman... though I thought the best of the past couple of decades was John Ostrander's run on Hawkworld and Hawkman, even if that incarnation was the one that screwed up Hawkman's DC continuity in the first place.
Man there is a lot going on in this thread here. I'm not sad seeing Morrison leave Marvel/DC it just means I won't be reading much more at DC. For me I'm like the opposite Matt in terms of this Batman take. I didn't have much problem with the earlier take it's just that not everyone executed it well. Morrison's take along with 7 Soldiers and Final Crisis (plus 52) really worked for me all together.
Some of the things in his batman that people don't like I think are just not understood i.e Batman dying (he didn't die, he was sent back into the past. The Omega Effect at least to my knowledge only killed someone in S:TAS). I also don't think talia tricked batman into having sex-she's a crazy baby mama, its a very SIMPLE concept done in a extraordinary matter.
I'm happy for these cats to go get this real money. These corporations ain't trying to help them, they have a lame mentality. But yeah it is something that a morrison thread got me to post again.
Man there is a lot going on in this thread here. I'm not sad seeing Morrison leave Marvel/DC it just means I won't be reading much more at DC. For me I'm like the opposite Matt in terms of this Batman take. I didn't have much problem with the earlier take it's just that not everyone executed it well. Morrison's take along with 7 Soldiers and Final Crisis (plus 52) really worked for me all together.
Some of the things in his batman that people don't like I think are just not understood i.e Batman dying (he didn't die, he was sent back into the past. The Omega Effect at least to my knowledge only killed someone in S:TAS). I also don't think talia tricked batman into having sex-she's a crazy baby mama, its a very SIMPLE concept done in a extraordinary matter.
I'm happy for these cats to go get this real money. These corporations ain't trying to help them, they have a lame mentality. But yeah it is something that a morrison thread got me to post again.
Oh yeah read One Piece.
I won't do a call back on this discussion, but I thought the RIP story was not one that interested me. Batman died in that JLA storyline with the replacement roster while the line up was in the past with Aquaman.
Plus, the whole using a gun to shoot Darkseid seemed too unoriginal, since he was going to shoot Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis; only an event or two prior.
The main thing always came down to Morrison's run became putting Bruce Wayne back into the spotlight again. Morrison brought back the notion of Batman being the mask; which I disagree with.
And for the record, Talia would NOT have to trick me into mating with her!!
Batman inc. run wraps up at issue 12 & Action Comics wrapping up at #16. There are other side projects like "Multivisity" that is apparently eight issues coming out whenever at some point in the future.
We didn't have one before Liefeld got there. Why should it be any different after? Pre-Liefeld, Hawkman was an incoherent mess, with Liefeld it was just a mess.
There could have been years of cool stories come out of the setup Robinson & Johns gave Hawkman. St. Roch could have been explored. All of the past lives stuff. DC pissed it all away.
I really liked Morrison, he had huge buildups to his stories which drew on previous plot points. He made me feel like I got a bang for my buck, I had to read some issues like the last issue of final crisis about 10 times to understand the plot, but it still felt like I was getting something new every time and wasn't getting old.
Though final crisis still sort of baffles me :|
I thought that Final Crisis, as much as I enjoyed it in the main, was ultimately a failure, mostly because of that last issue. The story was engaging and Morrison threw a lot at the reader at every turn, to the extent that the series was an emotional roller-coaster. But I think that last issue, where he had to wrap everything up, got away from him. All of a sudden, we had characters standing around telling us what had happened and how things were being resolved, and it felt like a ton and a half of things were being crammed into a few pages -- Captain Carrot and his Zoo Crew were suddenly shoved into a few panels in an attempt to unite all of the 'Supermen' from all of the parallell worlds (as well as to rescue the ZC from the fate they suffered in the last issue of the Last Ark mini). That last issue was a confusing muddle, and, in my case at least, bounced me out of the story.
I like Morrison and I did enjoy FC for the main part, but thought that last issue killed it.
Agreed. That last issue felt more like Superman Beyond #3 then Final Crisis #7.
Batman inc. run wraps up at issue 12 & Action Comics wrapping up at #16. There are other side projects like "Multivisity" that is apparently eight issues coming out whenever at some point in the future.
I really liked Morrison, he had huge buildups to his stories which drew on previous plot points. He made me feel like I got a bang for my buck, I had to read some issues like the last issue of final crisis about 10 times to understand the plot, but it still felt like I was getting something new every time and wasn't getting old.
Though final crisis still sort of baffles me :|
I thought that Final Crisis, as much as I enjoyed it in the main, was ultimately a failure, mostly because of that last issue. The story was engaging and Morrison threw a lot at the reader at every turn, to the extent that the series was an emotional roller-coaster. But I think that last issue, where he had to wrap everything up, got away from him. All of a sudden, we had characters standing around telling us what had happened and how things were being resolved, and it felt like a ton and a half of things were being crammed into a few pages -- Captain Carrot and his Zoo Crew were suddenly shoved into a few panels in an attempt to unite all of the 'Supermen' from all of the parallell worlds (as well as to rescue the ZC from the fate they suffered in the last issue of the Last Ark mini). That last issue was a confusing muddle, and, in my case at least, bounced me out of the story.
I like Morrison and I did enjoy FC for the main part, but thought that last issue killed it.
Agreed. That last issue felt more like Superman Beyond #3 then Final Crisis #7.
I really liked Morrison, he had huge buildups to his stories which drew on previous plot points. He made me feel like I got a bang for my buck, I had to read some issues like the last issue of final crisis about 10 times to understand the plot, but it still felt like I was getting something new every time and wasn't getting old.
Though final crisis still sort of baffles me :|
I thought that Final Crisis, as much as I enjoyed it in the main, was ultimately a failure, mostly because of that last issue. The story was engaging and Morrison threw a lot at the reader at every turn, to the extent that the series was an emotional roller-coaster. But I think that last issue, where he had to wrap everything up, got away from him. All of a sudden, we had characters standing around telling us what had happened and how things were being resolved, and it felt like a ton and a half of things were being crammed into a few pages -- Captain Carrot and his Zoo Crew were suddenly shoved into a few panels in an attempt to unite all of the 'Supermen' from all of the parallell worlds (as well as to rescue the ZC from the fate they suffered in the last issue of the Last Ark mini). That last issue was a confusing muddle, and, in my case at least, bounced me out of the story.
I like Morrison and I did enjoy FC for the main part, but thought that last issue killed it.
Agreed. That last issue felt more like Superman Beyond #3 then Final Crisis #7.
It all felt like the same story to me. I never saw Superman Beyond as some separate piece. And as of now if you read it collected it's all together anyway.
I really liked Morrison, he had huge buildups to his stories which drew on previous plot points. He made me feel like I got a bang for my buck, I had to read some issues like the last issue of final crisis about 10 times to understand the plot, but it still felt like I was getting something new every time and wasn't getting old.
Though final crisis still sort of baffles me :|
I thought that Final Crisis, as much as I enjoyed it in the main, was ultimately a failure, mostly because of that last issue. The story was engaging and Morrison threw a lot at the reader at every turn, to the extent that the series was an emotional roller-coaster. But I think that last issue, where he had to wrap everything up, got away from him. All of a sudden, we had characters standing around telling us what had happened and how things were being resolved, and it felt like a ton and a half of things were being crammed into a few pages -- Captain Carrot and his Zoo Crew were suddenly shoved into a few panels in an attempt to unite all of the 'Supermen' from all of the parallell worlds (as well as to rescue the ZC from the fate they suffered in the last issue of the Last Ark mini). That last issue was a confusing muddle, and, in my case at least, bounced me out of the story.
I like Morrison and I did enjoy FC for the main part, but thought that last issue killed it.
Agreed. That last issue felt more like Superman Beyond #3 then Final Crisis #7.
It all felt like the same story to me. I never saw Superman Beyond as some separate piece. And as of now if you read it collected it's all together anyway.
FC 1-6 was so brutally oppresive. Wonder Woman spreads disease instead of peace. Green Arrow conforms to the masses. Batman uses a gun. It was an operatic scale beatdown of the DCU. To have an army of sungods and luminous knights come in and save the day just didn't fit.
I wonder if, and Pimp also mentioned this, the DCnU wasn't supposed to happen right after FC. All of existance gets pulled through the black hole created by Darksied's death to re-emerge as something just a bit different then what was before. The Fifth World.
I will say this. I am, and always will be a fan of Superman "singing" Darkseid out of existance. That is awesome.
I like Morrison's work, usually, but don't really care for his Batman, or the Action stuff. Hopefully he won't just slink away to bitterly dis' the artform from the shadows...
Man there is a lot going on in this thread here. I'm not sad seeing Morrison leave Marvel/DC it just means I won't be reading much more at DC. For me I'm like the opposite Matt in terms of this Batman take. I didn't have much problem with the earlier take it's just that not everyone executed it well. Morrison's take along with 7 Soldiers and Final Crisis (plus 52) really worked for me all together.
Some of the things in his batman that people don't like I think are just not understood i.e Batman dying (he didn't die, he was sent back into the past. The Omega Effect at least to my knowledge only killed someone in S:TAS). I also don't think talia tricked batman into having sex-she's a crazy baby mama, its a very SIMPLE concept done in a extraordinary matter.
I'm happy for these cats to go get this real money. These corporations ain't trying to help them, they have a lame mentality. But yeah it is something that a morrison thread got me to post again.
Oh yeah read One Piece.
I won't do a call back on this discussion, but I thought the RIP story was not one that interested me. Batman died in that JLA storyline with the replacement roster while the line up was in the past with Aquaman.
Plus, the whole using a gun to shoot Darkseid seemed too unoriginal, since he was going to shoot Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis; only an event or two prior.
The main thing always came down to Morrison's run became putting Bruce Wayne back into the spotlight again. Morrison brought back the notion of Batman being the mask; which I disagree with.
And for the record, Talia would NOT have to trick me into mating with her!!
M
I've always said and I still stand by it that Batman and Bruce Wayne are both masks. When he's in the Batcave in his Batman outfit with the mask off is the only time we see the "real" Bruce. Or really anytime where he's only with his confidantes (Alfred, Dick, Tim, etc), but even then, when the mask is on, he's still not quite himself.
Or in a nutshell - the Batman mask is to make him appear more infallible than he really is and the Bruce Wayne mask is to make him appear more fallible than he really is. A simplification, granted, but one that I think works.
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Man there is a lot going on in this thread here. I'm not sad seeing Morrison leave Marvel/DC it just means I won't be reading much more at DC. For me I'm like the opposite Matt in terms of this Batman take. I didn't have much problem with the earlier take it's just that not everyone executed it well. Morrison's take along with 7 Soldiers and Final Crisis (plus 52) really worked for me all together.
Some of the things in his batman that people don't like I think are just not understood i.e Batman dying (he didn't die, he was sent back into the past. The Omega Effect at least to my knowledge only killed someone in S:TAS). I also don't think talia tricked batman into having sex-she's a crazy baby mama, its a very SIMPLE concept done in a extraordinary matter.
I'm happy for these cats to go get this real money. These corporations ain't trying to help them, they have a lame mentality. But yeah it is something that a morrison thread got me to post again.
Oh yeah read One Piece.
I won't do a call back on this discussion, but I thought the RIP story was not one that interested me. Batman died in that JLA storyline with the replacement roster while the line up was in the past with Aquaman.
Plus, the whole using a gun to shoot Darkseid seemed too unoriginal, since he was going to shoot Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis; only an event or two prior.
The main thing always came down to Morrison's run became putting Bruce Wayne back into the spotlight again. Morrison brought back the notion of Batman being the mask; which I disagree with.
And for the record, Talia would NOT have to trick me into mating with her!!
M
I've always said and I still stand by it that Batman and Bruce Wayne are both masks. When he's in the Batcave in his Batman outfit with the mask off is the only time we see the "real" Bruce. Or really anytime where he's only with his confidantes (Alfred, Dick, Tim, etc), but even then, when the mask is on, he's still not quite himself.
Or in a nutshell - the Batman mask is to make him appear more infallible than he really is and the Bruce Wayne mask is to make him appear more fallible than he really is. A simplification, granted, but one that I think works.
I really like this. I don't like the idea of Batman going on nightly patrols, thrwarting muggers and pickpockets. Batman should be another tool in the utility belt alongside Matches Malone, Millionaire Bruce Wayne, homeless guy and whatever other disguise Bruce feels necessary to get the job done. Batman is the tool that gets used when it's time to drop the hammer.
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
I would just remind people about Marvel in the mid 90's...look at what creators back then were saying about how books were done with editors dictating to writers what they would write, dialogue being changed to tell a different story than what was plotted (or drawn). Then think about who was in charge of Marvel back then.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
I would just remind people about Marvel in the mid 90's...look at what creators back then were saying about how books were done with editors dictating to writers what they would write, dialogue being changed to tell a different story than what was plotted (or drawn). Then think about who was in charge of Marvel back then.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
Which is a very good thing.
I'd been under the impression for quite a long time now that there was a degree of micromanaging going on at DC just based on some of their series. I thought that Countdown To Final Crisis, as an example, was an interesting premise and set-up, but was horribly botched and remarkably unwieldy in its final execution. It constantly felt like it was being rewritten at the last minute. Nor was this the only book that felt that way.
Wasn't George Perez making the same sort of complaints when he walked away from Superman?
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
I would just remind people about Marvel in the mid 90's...look at what creators back then were saying about how books were done with editors dictating to writers what they would write, dialogue being changed to tell a different story than what was plotted (or drawn). Then think about who was in charge of Marvel back then.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
Which is a very good thing.
I'd been under the impression for quite a long time now that there was a degree of micromanaging going on at DC just based on some of their series. I thought that Countdown To Final Crisis, as an example, was an interesting premise and set-up, but was horribly botched and remarkably unwieldy in its final execution. It constantly felt like it was being rewritten at the last minute. Nor was this the only book that felt that way.
Wasn't George Perez making the same sort of complaints when he walked away from Superman?
As were Gail Simone and Paul Cornell. Seems to be a common issue.
Reminds me of when Chris Claremont was squeezed off the X-Men, and then John Byrne came in to script, and left, saying he was only being give a couple of days to script due to lateness of art and constant editorial changes to already completed stories.
When Morrison first got on Batman, which was when I first started "hardcore reading", I was turned off by his attempts to be Denny O'Neil, but as I've matured and grown as a comic reader, I've started to actually appreciate his Batman stuff. Damien is still hit or miss with me, and how he treated Dick as Batman was kinda meh, but overall, he did a solid enough job for me to revisit the Batman/B&R/Inc stuff as the years move forward. While I don't think the Batman run is his best superhero work (New X-Men is still my favorite, and I enjoy his JLA stuff, but All-Star Supes is the bar), it's still good comics from my perspective.
Morrison's run has been polarizing, none the less. You either like it or you loathe it, I've never seen the inbetween.
Also, with the Liefeld stuff, is anyone getting a feeling that DC editorial is just...crappy?
I wonder if, and Pimp also mentioned this, the DCnU wasn't supposed to happen right after FC. All of existance gets pulled through the black hole created by Darksied's death to re-emerge as something just a bit different then what was before. The Fifth World.
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
I would just remind people about Marvel in the mid 90's...look at what creators back then were saying about how books were done with editors dictating to writers what they would write, dialogue being changed to tell a different story than what was plotted (or drawn). Then think about who was in charge of Marvel back then.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
Which is a very good thing.
Isn't this a bad thing tho as so many readers dont read indie books?
The Bleeding Cool article then lists some books/creators that have had issues.
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
I would just remind people about Marvel in the mid 90's...look at what creators back then were saying about how books were done with editors dictating to writers what they would write, dialogue being changed to tell a different story than what was plotted (or drawn). Then think about who was in charge of Marvel back then.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
Which is a very good thing.
Isn't this a bad thing tho as so many readers dont read indie books?
It seems even now your average comic fan won't read anything that isn't from the big 4 or a licensed property. Which is sad cause there is so many great books out there that aren't from the big 4.
Comments
Some of the things in his batman that people don't like I think are just not understood i.e Batman dying (he didn't die, he was sent back into the past. The Omega Effect at least to my knowledge only killed someone in S:TAS). I also don't think talia tricked batman into having sex-she's a crazy baby mama, its a very SIMPLE concept done in a extraordinary matter.
I'm happy for these cats to go get this real money. These corporations ain't trying to help them, they have a lame mentality.
But yeah it is something that a morrison thread got me to post again.
Oh yeah read One Piece.
Plus, the whole using a gun to shoot Darkseid seemed too unoriginal, since he was going to shoot Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis; only an event or two prior.
The main thing always came down to Morrison's run became putting Bruce Wayne back into the spotlight again. Morrison brought back the notion of Batman being the mask; which I disagree with.
And for the record, Talia would NOT have to trick me into mating with her!!
M
M
That said, I enjoyed the audiobook better.
I wonder if, and Pimp also mentioned this, the DCnU wasn't supposed to happen right after FC. All of existance gets pulled through the black hole created by Darksied's death to re-emerge as something just a bit different then what was before. The Fifth World.
I will say this. I am, and always will be a fan of Superman "singing" Darkseid out of existance. That is awesome.
Or in a nutshell - the Batman mask is to make him appear more infallible than he really is and the Bruce Wayne mask is to make him appear more fallible than he really is. A simplification, granted, but one that I think works.
bleedingcool.com/2012/08/22/rob-liefeld-leaves-dc-comics-with-the-zero-issues/
"Massive indecision, last minute and I mean LAST minute changes that alter everything. Editor pissing contests…"
ouch! Nu DC???
e
L nny
"It’s the reason Gail Simone walked off Firestorm, it’s the reason Paul Cornell walked off Stormwatch, it’s the reason John Rozum walked off Static Shock."
Who are/were the editors for those books?
.... Ok. He could be right. Just weird to see him talking about "thank yous" and then trashing everything.
I don't like the idea of Batman going on nightly patrols, thrwarting muggers and pickpockets. Batman should be another tool in the utility belt alongside Matches Malone, Millionaire Bruce Wayne, homeless guy and whatever other disguise Bruce feels necessary to get the job done. Batman is the tool that gets used when it's time to drop the hammer.
I think we're REALLY going to see more and more creators moving away from DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) and setting up over at Image for self-publishing.
Which is a very good thing.
Wasn't George Perez making the same sort of complaints when he walked away from Superman?
Reminds me of when Chris Claremont was squeezed off the X-Men, and then John Byrne came in to script, and left, saying he was only being give a couple of days to script due to lateness of art and constant editorial changes to already completed stories.
Morrison's run has been polarizing, none the less. You either like it or you loathe it, I've never seen the inbetween.
Also, with the Liefeld stuff, is anyone getting a feeling that DC editorial is just...crappy?
Im just saying...
Less Concerned about Rob. Not a huge fan now but I did love the New Mutants and X-Force back in the day.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08/25/now-its-rob-liefeld-vs-scott-snyder-get-over-yourself-you-pretentious-prick/
http://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/6/14/3084348/the-second-40-worst-rob-liefeld-drawings