People need to understand that DC Comics is first and foremost a business, and businesses need to make money. Thus, they will be more inclined to put out products similar to the products that make them the most money.
If Superman Family Adventures sold more than the BatBooks, then there would more books like that... Unfortunately, that is just not the case.
The power is in your hands people...If you keep buying stuff you don't like, then your complaining won't mean jack.
I'm pretty sure everyone participating in the thread understands that DC is a business.
I'm also pretty sure we all understand the basic economics of supply and demand.
I'd even go so far as to say most of us know that our complaining doesn't mean jack, whether we buy the books we like or not.
But your platitudes are insulting.
The power IS NOT IN MY HANDS!
If the power were in my hands, O.M.A.C. would still be be being published.
Hell, if the power were in my hands, Sandman Mystery Theater would sill be being published!
I am one over-the-hill comics fan, scrounging about trying to find the occasional book that still suits my taste, while the general target audience continues to get younger, and apparently increasingly hungry for gore and explicit violence and "darkness".
And I'm here on this forum to find the occasional sympathetic ear (eye?) when I whine about characters I used to love being handled "wrong" and argue with folks who have different ideas about the "right" way to handle them.
You post seemed to say "Shut up. You can't fix this." If so, too bad. This thread's about expressing disappointment, not fixing anything.
I must admit I've been dropping DC titles left and right lately. Sword of Sorcery, Phantom Stranger, World Finest and Dial H have all gone in the last few months. And granted I'm not reading all books and there are some poor books out there. But I just can't help but wonder if people are missing out the really good books for some reason. Aquaman, Batman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Demon Knights, Earth 2, Justice League (I don't understand why everyone is slating this title so much), All Star Western are all really strong books at the moment, and I'm loving reading them right now. I'm sure there are more good books out there too right now, I've heard a lot of good things about all of the Batman titles, Action Comics and Justice League Dark to name a few.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm also looking forward to the new JLA and Vibe books, as well as Trinity War and Multiversity events. I think DC is doing a lot of good right now. That's not to say they're not doing some dross too, but overall I'm happy with the way things are going.
I dropped Batman, Animal Man and Swamp Thing because I did not think they were good strong books. Not in my opinion. I dropped Demon Knights a little more reluctantly (I thought it started strong but was fading fast), and I'm keeping on Justice League just as reluctantly (hoping against hope simply because I love the JLA even though I'm not as enamored of this incarnation).
Can anyone tell me why Vibe, of all characters, is even getting his own book!? Geoff Johns seems to have a lot of confidence in the character, though I'll be blown if I know why, and it doesn't seem to be a confidence carried too far by the rest of DC's heads, given that they felt they had to include the Justice League in the book's title.
People need to understand that DC Comics is first and foremost a business, and businesses need to make money. Thus, they will be more inclined to put out products similar to the products that make them the most money.
If Superman Family Adventures sold more than the BatBooks, then there would more books like that... Unfortunately, that is just not the case.
The power is in your hands people...If you keep buying stuff you don't like, then your complaining won't mean jack.
I'm pretty sure everyone participating in the thread understands that DC is a business.
I'm also pretty sure we all understand the basic economics of supply and demand.
I'd even go so far as to say most of us know that our complaining doesn't mean jack, whether we buy the books we like or not.
But your platitudes are insulting.
The power IS NOT IN MY HANDS!
If the power were in my hands, O.M.A.C. would still be be being published.
Hell, if the power were in my hands, Sandman Mystery Theater would sill be being published!
I am one over-the-hill comics fan, scrounging about trying to find the occasional book that still suits my taste, while the general target audience continues to get younger, and apparently increasingly hungry for gore and explicit violence and "darkness".
And I'm here on this forum to find the occasional sympathetic ear (eye?) when I whine about characters I used to love being handled "wrong" and argue with folks who have different ideas about the "right" way to handle them.
You post seemed to say "Shut up. You can't fix this." If so, too bad. This thread's about expressing disappointment, not fixing anything.
Well, I won't be buying it in the future, so in that respect you're right. But the thing is people like Batman (as an example) the character. There's only a couple of places you can get new batman stories if you are a fan of that character. Movies are rare and TV shows are rare. Books are very rare. Comic books though come out every month. So if you're hungry for Batman content, its kinda hard to refuse to buy the main source of new Batman material.
People are hungry enough that they will tolerate things they don't like to experience some things they do. For instance, I loved the show 24. For the first 3 seasons I loved it. Season 4... eh... not so much. Season 5... bleh, hated it. But I kept watching because I hoped it would return to something I liked. And it did.
Now... I could TRY to do that with these comics, but there was no cost associated with me watching 24. This does have a cost and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. Its not JUST the violence although that has kinda taken over the thread. I just don't understand the extreme level the violence has gotten too.
Take The Dark Knight movie. It had violence. It had a "real" story involving the mob and death and bombs. But it wasn't a movie with blood dripping everywhere. I don't even think there were a lot of on screen deaths. It didn't show people limbs being severed from their bodies. Didn't show peoples eyes being gouged out. Didn't show heads exploding or dozens of Gothamites beating themselves to death. Why not? Probably because they didn't want to get an R rating, they wanted to make money, they wanted to make a movie that was serious, but still tolerable to the public.
These comics aren't tolerable. They'd be rated R if it was a movie, no question about it.
I must admit I've been dropping DC titles left and right lately. Sword of Sorcery, Phantom Stranger, World Finest and Dial H have all gone in the last few months. And granted I'm not reading all books and there are some poor books out there. But I just can't help but wonder if people are missing out the really good books for some reason. Aquaman, Batman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Demon Knights, Earth 2, Justice League (I don't understand why everyone is slating this title so much), All Star Western are all really strong books at the moment, and I'm loving reading them right now. I'm sure there are more good books out there too right now, I've heard a lot of good things about all of the Batman titles, Action Comics and Justice League Dark to name a few.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm also looking forward to the new JLA and Vibe books, as well as Trinity War and Multiversity events. I think DC is doing a lot of good right now. That's not to say they're not doing some dross too, but overall I'm happy with the way things are going.
I dropped Batman, Animal Man and Swamp Thing because I did not think they were good strong books. Not in my opinion. I dropped Demon Knights a little more reluctantly (I thought it started strong but was fading fast), and I'm keeping on Justice League just as reluctantly (hoping against hope simply because I love the JLA even though I'm not as enamored of this incarnation).
Can anyone tell me why Vibe, of all characters, is even getting his own book!? Geoff Johns seems to have a lot of confidence in the character, though I'll be blown if I know why, and it doesn't seem to be a confidence carried too far by the rest of DC's heads, given that they felt they had to include the Justice League in the book's title.
That's the great thing about these debates we all have our own opinions. What's a good book for some is poor for others. I'm liking Demon Knights as its completely different to everything else DC is bringing out right now.
I think Johns wants to do an "Aquaman" with Vibe. Reinventing the character and making him cooler (for lack of a better word). I read an interview on DCs blog where he said he's going to be key to DCs many universes, serving as a sort of 'border cop'. Sounds interesting and it teases at bring back characters not seen in the New 52 thus far.
Can anyone tell me why Vibe, of all characters, is even getting his own book!? Geoff Johns seems to have a lot of confidence in the character, though I'll be blown if I know why, and it doesn't seem to be a confidence carried too far by the rest of DC's heads, given that they felt they had to include the Justice League in the book's title.
So he can brag about making the most ridiculous character popular.
I have actually been reading more and more of the DC books. I for one have loved most of what was done in the 52 relaunch. I like the more mature take with the characters
The Bat-titles have always been more likely to handle dark subject matter than the rest of DC's superhero titles, but from what I've read of the New 52, it does feel a lot more violent.
And while No Man's Land, for example, was a fairly depressing storyline, it was also followed by Rucka, Brubaker and Hama on the Bat-titles, and my recollection of those is that they were serious stories, but not much darker than the standard "fighting a super-villain" level you'd see in comics. I also recall that Hama's run was pretty bad and gave us Orca, so I guess there are some positives to the New 52.
I'm about six months behind on new comics, but from what I remember, two Bat-titles (Batman, Batman & Robin) were pretty much enough for me, with the others just feeling like too much grim and gritty added to the pile.
Can anyone tell me why Vibe, of all characters, is even getting his own book!? Geoff Johns seems to have a lot of confidence in the character, though I'll be blown if I know why, and it doesn't seem to be a confidence carried too far by the rest of DC's heads, given that they felt they had to include the Justice League in the book's title.
So he can brag about making the most ridiculous character popular.
If the power were in my hands, O.M.A.C. would still be be being published.
Hell, if the power were in my hands, Sandman Mystery Theater would sill be being published!
I am one over-the-hill comics fan, scrounging about trying to find the occasional book that still suits my taste, while the general target audience continues to get younger, and apparently increasingly hungry for gore and explicit violence and "darkness".
And I'm here on this forum to find the occasional sympathetic ear (eye?) when I whine about characters I used to love being handled "wrong" and argue with folks who have different ideas about the "right" way to handle them.
You post seemed to say "Shut up. You can't fix this." If so, too bad. This thread's about expressing disappointment, not fixing anything.
To be honest, I was posting to the overall collector's mentality....The people who keep buying comics even though they don't like them...The people who cry and stomp their feet and stick their lips out because Spidey is Doc Ock now, or the DC reboot, but still buy the books.
The power is in your hands to not buy books you hate...but to buy books you love.
I have actually been reading more and more of the DC books. I for one have loved most of what was done in the 52 relaunch. I like the more mature take with the characters
I disagree with the notion that upping the sex and violence equates to more mature.
I have actually been reading more and more of the DC books. I for one have loved most of what was done in the 52 relaunch. I like the more mature take with the characters
I disagree with the notion that upping the sex and violence equates to more mature.
I feel the same way, and I’m sure we’re not the only ones, but these days the word “mature”—when applied to anything in the entertainment industry—has been relegated to shorthand for “don’t let the kids look at this,” so I’m not going to quibble with what VKMarion said. It does raise the point that in no way would I give Batman—or many of its related titles—to my seven-year-old to read.
The only Bat-titles I read are Batman Inc., which hasn’t really felt any more violent than comics of the ’80s; Batwoman, which has only had one really graphic scene that I can recall; and Talon, which has been relatively tame thus far. That being said, the overall DCU does feel darker and more graphic in its depiction of violence than even the dark period of the early ’90s when Waid and Weiringo’s Flash was one of the few bright (literally and figuratively) spots of the line. Fortunately, Marvel seems to have remembered how to make fun adventure comics again, so I’m finding more than enough superhero books to enjoy. And if Marvel’s approach proves successful, I’m sure DC will follow suit before long and lighten its tone again.
I have actually been reading more and more of the DC books. I for one have loved most of what was done in the 52 relaunch. I like the more mature take with the characters
I disagree with the notion that upping the sex and violence equates to more mature.
Yeah... I was wondering about that point as well.
I think that sort of rating is a bit misleading. Instead of saying "For Mature Readers", it's probably more accurate to say "Not For Children Under A Specific Age". I don't think the increase of graphic violence makes for a mature take at all -- I think it just means that it's a book you don't share with anyone younger than, say, mid-teens.
For the most part the manga companies have put age ratings on the books. The standard E, YT, T, O, M ratings. And of course if you know it's yaoi, yuri, ecchi or hentai, you know what to expect. Even still, some of the titles for younger adults border on the "Well, my pappy never woulda let me read this!" :)
Where the line is drawn has always been a mixed bag. No spoilers but I read Batman 16 last night and there was a rather gruesome art display in it. I thought about whether or not I'd want my kid reading that. Then I thought back to when I was a kid and my favorite title - New Teen Titans - was on the shelves. I recalled a scene where the group was about to be lowered into a boiling sea of blood. Then I remembered the second Trigon arc where whole populations were turned into columns of corpses (in vivid Perez renderings!). I remember Kory and Dick in bed (unwed!) (Pardon the pun and the rhyme!). The implication that Deathstroke was committing statutory with Terra (confirmed by Wolfman later, IIRC).
This was (one of) the biggest selling books of the 80s, yet at times it was darker than Batman was (this was the Aparo-era Batman/Pre-Miller). Yet it never had the "Mature Readers" tag slapped on it.
For the most part the manga companies have put age ratings on the books. The standard E, YT, T, O, M ratings. And of course if you know it's yaoi, yuri, ecchi or hentai, you know what to expect. Even still, some of the titles for younger adults border on the "Well, my pappy never woulda let me read this!" :)
Where the line is drawn has always been a mixed bag. No spoilers but I read Batman 16 last night and there was a rather gruesome art display in it. I thought about whether or not I'd want my kid reading that. Then I thought back to when I was a kid and my favorite title - New Teen Titans - was on the shelves. I recalled a scene where the group was about to be lowered into a boiling sea of blood. Then I remembered the second Trigon arc where whole populations were turned into columns of corpses (in vivid Perez renderings!). I remember Kory and Dick in bed (unwed!) (Pardon the pun and the rhyme!). The implication that Deathstroke was committing statutory with Terra (confirmed by Wolfman later, IIRC).
This was (one of) the biggest selling books of the 80s, yet at times it was darker than Batman was (this was the Aparo-era Batman/Pre-Miller). Yet it never had the "Mature Readers" tag slapped on it.
Yes, New Teen Titans got pretty dark, but don't forget that it was targeted to the direct store market, and didn't appear on newsstands for at least a year. It was meant for an older audience, and it launched before the “Mature Readers” label was put into use.
Yeah, that was the Baxter run. The run that preceded it, which was regular newsstand, had a lot of themes that were pretty over the top for a title with "Teen" in it, though. I think the corpse column was in the Baxter run, but a lot of that stuff appeared in the regular series before it ever got to the "Hey, let's do a second title!" stage. This wasn't marketed to any specific audience. It showed up right next to the issues of Batman, Captain Carrot and Spidey on the stands.
Trying to remember what else showed up...the Ravager was killed in issue 2. Starfire appeared in a skimpy bikini (skimpier than her regular outfit if you can picture that! 8) ). I remember Brother Blood and Trigon being particularly scary villains for a book like that.
I remember straying away from the Titans right about that period. I was finding the general story tone to be overworked and boring, and kind of numbing. I remember thinking at that time that if I were a Titan I would probably want to kill myself because life seemed so overwhelmingly bleak; they never really seemed to catch a break.
I remember straying away from the Titans right about that period. I was finding the general story tone to be overworked and boring, and kind of numbing. I remember thinking at that time that if I were a Titan I would probably want to kill myself because life seemed so overwhelmingly bleak; they never really seemed to catch a break.
Even as a kid/teen reading the book I always felt that for teenagers these were some of the saddest 40-year olders I'd ever read about. :)
I remember straying away from the Titans right about that period. I was finding the general story tone to be overworked and boring, and kind of numbing. I remember thinking at that time that if I were a Titan I would probably want to kill myself because life seemed so overwhelmingly bleak; they never really seemed to catch a break.
Even as a kid/teen reading the book I always felt that for teenagers these were some of the saddest 40-year olders I'd ever read about. :)
When I re-read the first year or so not too long ago, one of the things I noticed this time around was how often the Titans acted and sounded more like 40 year olds than teenagers or college-aged characters. I guess I'm a more critical reader than I was back then, but I didn't feel like Wolfman really captured that younger adult feel.
Seriously, in what world does Donna Troy hook up with someone like Terry Long, unless it's one written by an older dude?
I think they were able to hold onto the "Teen" aspect thanks to Gar Logan, Terra, and Starfire's naivete. Dick and Donna were both way too developed in their characterization to be "teen" anything. Raven always struck me as being much older than anyone (based on how Perez drew her). Wally...holy crap...he really had a lot of hangups for a teen, didn't he? Cyborg might be that link between the two camps I guess.
I don't know. Maybe you're right and my sensibilities have changed. Is anybody reading Superman, Supergirl?
I'm reading Supergirl and still enjoying it. I like the take they've done on her where she's taking a while to get used to the idea of living on Earth...if she ever does! Bear in mind, when it comes to SG, I'm biased as hell. I've been reading her exploits since the 70s. I've found something to enjoy in every "re-thinking" they've done of her, though.
I think it helps to look at Batman...and the majority of the reboot...as Image comics finally coming home to roost. I'm reading Savage Dragon for the first time (I know...I know...) and the bloodshed and body count in that particular title can get pretty high (alongside the humor!). To me at least, that general feel echoed into the majority (not all) of the Image titles. And with Lee at the helm, Capullo on art chores for the flagship, and (for a time) Leifeld on several titles, it was pretty easy to draw the parallel.
I still enjoy Batman. I like Snyder's writing, and I love Capullo's artwork. Detective I can take or leave. Dark Knight has been bad, but I'm hoping with Ethan Van Sciver jumping onto art chores and a new writer there'll be some turnaround. Batgirl and Red Hood have both been solid reads.
I still find books to enjoy from DC. Sadly, they're on the periphery - All-Star Western surprised the hell out of me, because I've never really been a fan of Western comics or Jonah Hex, but I love it. I've bored the hell out of everyone on here praising Demon Knights - but can I bore you a little more to say the new writer picked the ball up where Cornell dropped it and is running VERY WELL with it? So many of the titles I love are always one bad month away from cancellation...I get that. It's why I try and support them more than dutifully grabbing a Bat or Super title every month.
And to show my hypocrisy - Wonder Woman is still the best title they're putting out. I *laughed* - a gut rolling belly laugh - at the most recent issue. Haven't done that with a comic in years.
Based on your glowing reccomendation, i got 13 issues of WW from the library. I read 10 yesterday. I like it a lot.
i didnt mean that sex and violence equals mature, I just like the way they seem to be taking the characters (for the most part) more seriously. One of the things that drives me nuts as a reader is when things are written overly tongue in cheek, or the characters are made jokes of. This is my personal view, as I know a lot of people like the bwha ha, or the older bronze age style of storytelling. I totally get that poeple don't like when things get shaken up, but for me personally, DC has been knocking it out of the park with the type of stories and art that appeals to me.
Seriously, in what world does Donna Troy hook up with someone like Terry Long, unless it's one written by an older dude?
The world in which the writer Mary Sues himself into the story to hook up with Donna Troy.
I've worked in the casinos the past twenty years. I see a dozen Terry Longs with Donna Troys every Saturday night. I stop questioning it after the first 100 times I saw it .
By and large, DC isn't for me. It used to be, but with Bob Harris bringing back the 90's, I can't even say I am reading a DC universe proper comic in a timely manner any more. The art is usually pinuptastic and story deficient, the stories reek of ham fisted editorial interference and I don't need to see people having their faces ripped off, heads punched off, eviscerated and so on.
If people like it, good, I'm glad they have something they enjoy. I have books like Daredevil, Hawkguy, The Massive, whatever and whenever Seth puts something out, Wood's Star Wars and the like.
It's weird. I used to LOVE DC. I thought their universe was a wonderful place to set stories and I felt it was special...and Busiek did an excellent job of showing WHY it was special in Avengers/JLA. Now, I don't care. I have walked away and don't miss it because what I loved about it was thrown away. The history, the legacies, the heroics have all been replaced by all of the crap that made me drop Marvel in 1994.
Their books just aren't for me. AND THAT'S FINE. We don't have to be friends any more.
Comments
Can anyone tell me why Vibe, of all characters, is even getting his own book!? Geoff Johns seems to have a lot of confidence in the character, though I'll be blown if I know why, and it doesn't seem to be a confidence carried too far by the rest of DC's heads, given that they felt they had to include the Justice League in the book's title.
People are hungry enough that they will tolerate things they don't like to experience some things they do. For instance, I loved the show 24. For the first 3 seasons I loved it. Season 4... eh... not so much. Season 5... bleh, hated it. But I kept watching because I hoped it would return to something I liked. And it did.
Now... I could TRY to do that with these comics, but there was no cost associated with me watching 24. This does have a cost and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. Its not JUST the violence although that has kinda taken over the thread. I just don't understand the extreme level the violence has gotten too.
Take The Dark Knight movie. It had violence. It had a "real" story involving the mob and death and bombs. But it wasn't a movie with blood dripping everywhere. I don't even think there were a lot of on screen deaths. It didn't show people limbs being severed from their bodies. Didn't show peoples eyes being gouged out. Didn't show heads exploding or dozens of Gothamites beating themselves to death. Why not? Probably because they didn't want to get an R rating, they wanted to make money, they wanted to make a movie that was serious, but still tolerable to the public.
These comics aren't tolerable. They'd be rated R if it was a movie, no question about it.
I think Johns wants to do an "Aquaman" with Vibe. Reinventing the character and making him cooler (for lack of a better word). I read an interview on DCs blog where he said he's going to be key to DCs many universes, serving as a sort of 'border cop'. Sounds interesting and it teases at bring back characters not seen in the New 52 thus far.
And while No Man's Land, for example, was a fairly depressing storyline, it was also followed by Rucka, Brubaker and Hama on the Bat-titles, and my recollection of those is that they were serious stories, but not much darker than the standard "fighting a super-villain" level you'd see in comics. I also recall that Hama's run was pretty bad and gave us Orca, so I guess there are some positives to the New 52.
I'm about six months behind on new comics, but from what I remember, two Bat-titles (Batman, Batman & Robin) were pretty much enough for me, with the others just feeling like too much grim and gritty added to the pile.
The power is in your hands to not buy books you hate...but to buy books you love.
If that was insulting to you, I apologize.
Apology accepted, reciprocal apology offered.
*Plus, my High Horse was bucking something fierce.
The only Bat-titles I read are Batman Inc., which hasn’t really felt any more violent than comics of the ’80s; Batwoman, which has only had one really graphic scene that I can recall; and Talon, which has been relatively tame thus far. That being said, the overall DCU does feel darker and more graphic in its depiction of violence than even the dark period of the early ’90s when Waid and Weiringo’s Flash was one of the few bright (literally and figuratively) spots of the line. Fortunately, Marvel seems to have remembered how to make fun adventure comics again, so I’m finding more than enough superhero books to enjoy. And if Marvel’s approach proves successful, I’m sure DC will follow suit before long and lighten its tone again.
I think that sort of rating is a bit misleading. Instead of saying "For Mature Readers", it's probably more accurate to say "Not For Children Under A Specific Age". I don't think the increase of graphic violence makes for a mature take at all -- I think it just means that it's a book you don't share with anyone younger than, say, mid-teens.
Where the line is drawn has always been a mixed bag. No spoilers but I read Batman 16 last night and there was a rather gruesome art display in it. I thought about whether or not I'd want my kid reading that. Then I thought back to when I was a kid and my favorite title - New Teen Titans - was on the shelves. I recalled a scene where the group was about to be lowered into a boiling sea of blood. Then I remembered the second Trigon arc where whole populations were turned into columns of corpses (in vivid Perez renderings!). I remember Kory and Dick in bed (unwed!) (Pardon the pun and the rhyme!). The implication that Deathstroke was committing statutory with Terra (confirmed by Wolfman later, IIRC).
This was (one of) the biggest selling books of the 80s, yet at times it was darker than Batman was (this was the Aparo-era Batman/Pre-Miller). Yet it never had the "Mature Readers" tag slapped on it.
Trying to remember what else showed up...the Ravager was killed in issue 2. Starfire appeared in a skimpy bikini (skimpier than her regular outfit if you can picture that! 8) ). I remember Brother Blood and Trigon being particularly scary villains for a book like that.
Not that I didn't lap it all up! :)
Seriously, in what world does Donna Troy hook up with someone like Terry Long, unless it's one written by an older dude?
I guess we should be thankful that Marv Wolfman at least had the good taste to not symbolically hookup with Starfire.
If people like it, good, I'm glad they have something they enjoy. I have books like Daredevil, Hawkguy, The Massive, whatever and whenever Seth puts something out, Wood's Star Wars and the like.
It's weird. I used to LOVE DC. I thought their universe was a wonderful place to set stories and I felt it was special...and Busiek did an excellent job of showing WHY it was special in Avengers/JLA. Now, I don't care. I have walked away and don't miss it because what I loved about it was thrown away. The history, the legacies, the heroics have all been replaced by all of the crap that made me drop Marvel in 1994.
Their books just aren't for me. AND THAT'S FINE. We don't have to be friends any more.