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Another reason why DC never lasts long in my pull-list (SPOILER ALERT!)

Spoilers for Justice League of America #4

...Well, I guess that's one way to cancel Catwoman - she gets Blue Beetled.


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First it was Damien, and now Catwoman; I'm starting to think DC hates Batman as much as Marvel hates Spiderman. Could this be happening because Ann Nocenti is doing a boring run on the solo book? Ahh, who cares anymore? When I grew up with comics under the Comics Code, most were fairly interesting and even sophisticated without being overly explicit. Do readers today need sadistic violence to be entertained? What happened to FUN comics? I tell you that it's scenes like this that make me sometimes miss the old comics code. Who actually likes this kind of Geoff Johns shock violence? IS this for kids?

On the other point, does DC think this is what sells comics? I'm fed up with "deaths" in comics because they're so prevalent and ultimately irrelevant. Perhaps Dan Slott will change that trend, but regardless, there's been an overwhelming number of deaths in comics ever since Superman was "killed" and everyone went crazy over it. But starting with hyper-violent deaths such as Supergirl's face being smushed by Doomsday, it's steadily gone over the top and there's been a marked rise in the body count over the last 20 years.

I still kind of like the idea of a hero actually saving lives and preventing death. Of course, in a world with superpowers and magic, time travel, cloning, alternate universes, and gods everywhere, most readers know that death is not permanent. How realistic is that? All this is to say that I've dropped Justice League of America. Thanks for reading my rant...

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    GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    I expect gratuitous violence in fantasy and horror comics, superhero comics not so much especially those of DC and Marvel, (considering they market these characters to children through other means, which is its own problem). When I opened up Invincible #100, I've sworn off Kirkman comics for good. You can have a hero bashed real good all you want, but I felt that issue was going overboard. I'm not sure how close JLA #4 is to that, but I don't think Catwoman is dead and if she is, it won't last very long at all, there has been no news of the solo book being cancelled or going on without Ms. Kyle.

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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    I agree whole-heartedly. Of course Catwoman does have "nine lives" I suppose...
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    Spoilers for Justice League of America #4

    ...Well, I guess that's one way to cancel Catwoman - she gets Blue Beetled.


    image


    First it was Damien, and now Catwoman; I'm starting to think DC hates Batman as much as Marvel hates Spiderman. Could this be happening because Ann Nocenti is doing a boring run on the solo book? Ahh, who cares anymore? When I grew up with comics under the Comics Code, most were fairly interesting and even sophisticated without being overly explicit. Do readers today need sadistic violence to be entertained? What happened to FUN comics? I tell you that it's scenes like this that make me sometimes miss the old comics code. Who actually likes this kind of Geoff Johns shock violence? IS this for kids?

    On the other point, does DC think this is what sells comics? I'm fed up with "deaths" in comics because they're so prevalent and ultimately irrelevant. Perhaps Dan Slott will change that trend, but regardless, there's been an overwhelming number of deaths in comics ever since Superman was "killed" and everyone went crazy over it. But starting with hyper-violent deaths such as Supergirl's face being smushed by Doomsday, it's steadily gone over the top and there's been a marked rise in the body count over the last 20 years.

    I still kind of like the idea of a hero actually saving lives and preventing death. Of course, in a world with superpowers and magic, time travel, cloning, alternate universes, and gods everywhere, most readers know that death is not permanent. How realistic is that? All this is to say that I've dropped Justice League of America. Thanks for reading my rant...

    If actually say, first the Waynes, then Jason Todd, then Vesper, then Steph Brown, THEN Damien, and now (presumably) Catwoman.

    Now, as to the violence I think its just the sign of the times in general. Those creative ways of yesteryear probably would seem boring today.

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Now there is a line of how much & to what extent violence works. The first 3 (arguably 4) Saw movies were great. BUT with each sequel, the gore overtook an interesting story. By the final SAW, it was less thriller/horror & more cartoonish.

    M
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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    You definitely have a point regarding the sign of the times and you're correct about the Bond films as well as the SAW films (although you're more charitable than I). And when I said DC hates Batman, I was mostly referring to the New 52, but you nailed it with his parents, Jason, Vesper, Steph, and of course the two bodies on the ground with the New 52...
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    You definitely have a point regarding the sign of the times and you're correct about the Bond films as well as the SAW films (although you're more charitable than I). And when I said DC hates Batman, I was mostly referring to the New 52, but you nailed it with his parents, Jason, Vesper, Steph, and of course the two bodies on the ground with the New 52...

    You're right, I should've said "Saw was a great movie. Sequel 2-3 (arguably 4) were GOOD..." I think the development of the John Kramer character. The only thing I really like about 4 is that its a side-quel to 3.

    M
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    I think you are overreacting. I too was shocked by those last few pages but after I thought about it I realized that Catwoman isn't being canceled, in fact they're prepping for a new arc. You'll see shortly that Selina is alive and this is one of those cliffhanger endings tht have been a part of serialized fiction since the beginning. Calm down. It'll all be okay.
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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    edited May 2013

    I think you are overreacting. I too was shocked by those last few pages but after I thought about it I realized that Catwoman isn't being canceled, in fact they're prepping for a new arc. You'll see shortly that Selina is alive and this is one of those cliffhanger endings tht have been a part of serialized fiction since the beginning. Calm down. It'll all be okay.

    Your point is well taken, but my reaction is not just about Catwoman possibly being really dead, it's more about the trend towards hyper-violence. And for some female comic fans, this plot device of hurting or killing the significant women characters (or merely celebrating the illusion of such actions) in order to motivate the male character through vengeance is sadistic at worst and poor taste at best.

    While it looks grim for Catwoman, the whole seeing a visible headshot through her brain and all not withstanding, I am well aware however that any of the following may be the case:

    1) It may not be Catwoman. It could be someone different in the costume.
    2) It could be the shapeshifter Martian Manhunter, impersonating Catwoman. And he will live.
    3) It could be one of this Catwoman’s nine lives and she’s going to regenerate.

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    HellsfireHellsfire Posts: 89
    I think I understand the reasoning behind your rant, which is why I mostly stopped reading superhero comics years ago. I find that by doing that I don't get tired of the retreads, reboots, rehashes, and...reruns? More importantly, I get a story from beginning to end.

    However, if you still want to read superhero comics, you could always try to look at it a different way. If you look at it as a soap opera, things probably wouldn't seem that bad.

    And as a side note, I really enjoyed Catwoman until Judd went off the book. I stopped shortly after because those stories and the character were weak.
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    SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445
    Um...Damian was created to die, it was always the plot. The only change was that he was supposed to die in the first story arc instead of at the end of Morrison's run.
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    Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003

    I think you are overreacting. I too was shocked by those last few pages but after I thought about it I realized that Catwoman isn't being canceled, in fact they're prepping for a new arc. You'll see shortly that Selina is alive and this is one of those cliffhanger endings tht have been a part of serialized fiction since the beginning. Calm down. It'll all be okay.

    Your point is well taken, but my reaction is not just about Catwoman possibly being really dead, it's more about the trend towards hyper-violence. And for some female comic fans, this plot device of hurting or killing the significant women characters (or merely celebrating the illusion of such actions) in order to motivate the male character through vengeance is sadistic at worst and poor taste at best.

    While it looks grim for Catwoman, the whole seeing a visible headshot through her brain and all not withstanding, I am well aware however that any of the following may be the case:

    1) It may not be Catwoman. It could be someone different in the costume.
    2) It could be the shapeshifter Martian Manhunter, impersonating Catwoman. And he will live.
    3) It could be one of this Catwoman’s nine lives and she’s going to regenerate.

    We're also segueing into a massive crossover among all of the JLA titles involving magic and Pandora's Box where anything and everything are bound to happen, so all bets are off the table. She'll either be resurrected, the murder will be undone, or it will have been a hallucination. I'm not taking it seriously.

    And you know what? I dislike the current incarnation of Catwoman so much compared to the earlier runs, that I don't even care if it turns out that she's really dead. It's a 'meh' event where I'm concerned.
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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967

    you know what? I dislike the current incarnation of Catwoman so much compared to the earlier runs, that I don't even care if it turns out that she's really dead. It's a 'meh' event where I'm concerned.

    Could not agree with you more on that one...
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    Maybe she's alive, but just paralyzed... that could create some fresh new story ideas. Imagine, a character with a physical disability that can still be an active and involved member of DC's cast. Could work. Maybe this Didio guy is a visionary.
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    bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    SPOILER ALERT!
    SPOILER ALERT!
    SPOILER ALERT!

    image
    Oh nevermind...

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    nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,741
    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    From Russia with Love is my absolute favorite of the Bond films. The funny thing is, it’s the least fantastic of any in the series, and it features the most realistic fight scene of any Bond film. I think it’s perfectly paced, and I don’t find it long or boring at all, and I’ve probably watched it two dozen times.

    Dr. No, on the other hand, doesn’t even make my top 10. If the series had been launched with that film today, then no, the franchise would have died. However, if FRWL had launched the series today—and had it been filmed with the same script and same editing but with today’s technology—I think the franchise would do just fine. A good story is a good story.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Thank any and all gods, real or imagined, that the "tastes" and short attention spans of today's audiences don't have the power to retroactively alter the films of yesteryear.
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    CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    From Russia with Love is my absolute favorite of the Bond films. The funny thing is, it’s the least fantastic of any in the series, and it features the most realistic fight scene of any Bond film. I think it’s perfectly paced, and I don’t find it long or boring at all, and I’ve probably watched it two dozen times.

    Dr. No, on the other hand, doesn’t even make my top 10. If the series had been launched with that film today, then no, the franchise would have died. However, if FRWL had launched the series today—and had it been filmed with the same script and same editing but with today’s technology—I think the franchise would do just fine. A good story is a good story.
    My Bond Top 7

    7 Tomorrow Never Dies
    6. Gold Finger
    5. Casino Royale (Craig version)
    4. From Russia with Love
    3 You Only Live Twice
    2. Live and Let Die (my guilty pleasure)
    1. The spy who loved me

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    DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586

    SPOILER ALERT!
    SPOILER ALERT!
    SPOILER ALERT!

    image
    Oh nevermind...

    I'm surprised you didn't see this coming. ;p

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    SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    From Russia with Love is my absolute favorite of the Bond films. The funny thing is, it’s the least fantastic of any in the series, and it features the most realistic fight scene of any Bond film. I think it’s perfectly paced, and I don’t find it long or boring at all, and I’ve probably watched it two dozen times.

    Dr. No, on the other hand, doesn’t even make my top 10. If the series had been launched with that film today, then no, the franchise would have died. However, if FRWL had launched the series today—and had it been filmed with the same script and same editing but with today’s technology—I think the franchise would do just fine. A good story is a good story.
    My Bond Top 7

    7 Tomorrow Never Dies
    6. Gold Finger
    5. Casino Royale (Craig version)
    4. From Russia with Love
    3 You Only Live Twice
    2. Live and Let Die (my guilty pleasure)
    1. The spy who loved me

    Roger Moore James Bond movies don't exist on Earth Solitaire Rose.

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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    From Russia with Love is my absolute favorite of the Bond films. The funny thing is, it’s the least fantastic of any in the series, and it features the most realistic fight scene of any Bond film. I think it’s perfectly paced, and I don’t find it long or boring at all, and I’ve probably watched it two dozen times.

    Dr. No, on the other hand, doesn’t even make my top 10. If the series had been launched with that film today, then no, the franchise would have died. However, if FRWL had launched the series today—and had it been filmed with the same script and same editing but with today’s technology—I think the franchise would do just fine. A good story is a good story.
    My Bond Top 7

    7 Tomorrow Never Dies
    6. Gold Finger
    5. Casino Royale (Craig version)
    4. From Russia with Love
    3 You Only Live Twice
    2. Live and Let Die (my guilty pleasure)
    1. The spy who loved me

    Roger Moore James Bond movies don't exist on Earth Solitaire Rose.

    Can Agent Triple X still be there? She had the hottest rack of the Bond girls.

    M
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    CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    From Russia with Love is my absolute favorite of the Bond films. The funny thing is, it’s the least fantastic of any in the series, and it features the most realistic fight scene of any Bond film. I think it’s perfectly paced, and I don’t find it long or boring at all, and I’ve probably watched it two dozen times.

    Dr. No, on the other hand, doesn’t even make my top 10. If the series had been launched with that film today, then no, the franchise would have died. However, if FRWL had launched the series today—and had it been filmed with the same script and same editing but with today’s technology—I think the franchise would do just fine. A good story is a good story.
    My Bond Top 7

    7 Tomorrow Never Dies
    6. Gold Finger
    5. Casino Royale (Craig version)
    4. From Russia with Love
    3 You Only Live Twice
    2. Live and Let Die (my guilty pleasure)
    1. The spy who loved me

    Roger Moore James Bond movies don't exist on Earth Solitaire Rose.

    That is interesting. On the CaptShazam Rock of Eternity, Roger Moore only made two, no one has ever heard of Timothy Dalton, and the writers for Pierce Bronson are now only allowed to write for politicians. Because at least you expect to hear bad dialogue from them.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Thank any and all gods, real or imagined, that the "tastes" and short attention spans of today's audiences don't have the power to retroactively alter the films of yesteryear.
    So what does Mr. Dislike dislike? The sentiment or the invocation?
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    WetRats said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Thank any and all gods, real or imagined, that the "tastes" and short attention spans of today's audiences don't have the power to retroactively alter the films of yesteryear.
    So what does Mr. Dislike dislike? The sentiment or the invocation?
    That's one of my issues with the feedback options. Someone can disagree with my opinion or dislike a fact presented, but follow it up with something. Hiding behind the anonymous feedback icon doesn't contribute to anything.

    The Man of Steel thread is a great example of differences of options that lead to great conversations.

    M
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Non-anonymous agreement. :)>-
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    kfreemankfreeman Posts: 314
    I like the Dalton movies, particularly The Living Daylights, which is definitely in my top 10. He was a victim of a push for monogamy in the films at the time, but I enjoyed his darker take on the character after Dalton.

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    kfreemankfreeman Posts: 314



    Roger Moore James Bond movies don't exist on Earth Solitaire Rose.

    Really? For Your Eyes Only is excellent, IMHO. The Spy Who Loved Me holds up pretty well too. Granted, I think A View to a Kill is far and away the worst Bond movie, despite Christopher Walken.

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    PeterPeter Posts: 470
    WetRats said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Thank any and all gods, real or imagined, that the "tastes" and short attention spans of today's audiences don't have the power to retroactively alter the films of yesteryear.
    So what does Mr. Dislike dislike? The sentiment or the invocation?
    Oo! Ooo! Can I take a guess?!

    Maybe it's the generalization of 'today's audiences'? Cuz that's some downright quick to condemn excuse making right there. :)
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    edited July 2013
    Peter said:

    WetRats said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    Case in point, people rave about Connery's Bond. Truth is, Dr No & FRWL seem extremely long and boring. Since Goldfinger, the level of action & sexual aspects have increased over the years. If Dr No was released today, would the franchise last another 50 years?

    Thank any and all gods, real or imagined, that the "tastes" and short attention spans of today's audiences don't have the power to retroactively alter the films of yesteryear.
    So what does Mr. Dislike dislike? The sentiment or the invocation?
    Oo! Ooo! Can I take a guess?!

    Maybe it's the generalization of 'today's audiences'? Cuz that's some downright quick to condemn excuse making right there. :)
    So you seriously think a movie like Lawrence of Arabia or even The Godfather could succeed in theaters today?
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Top 007 Bond Movies at the Torchsong house:

    1 - On Her Majesty's Secret Service - That's right, bitches. George Lazenby did *the* best Bond movie. Take it to the bank!
    2 - The Spy Who Loved Me - Best action sequence at the end. Anyone doubting Moore's ability to not rely on comedy and schtick can be proven wrong.
    3 - Casino Royale - Daniel Craig saved us from that last Brosnan trainwreck!
    4 - Goldeneye - that said, loved Bros in this one.
    5 - Goldfinger - takes place in Kentucky, my home state.
    6 - Live and Let Die - Another case of Moore being a badass.
    7 - Dr. No - because fuckin' Ursula Andress in that bikini. No other reason. Don't need one. :)
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    I live how fast this thread went completely off-topic!
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Torchsong said:

    Top 007 Bond Movies at the Torchsong house:

    1 - On Her Majesty's Secret Service - That's right, bitches. George Lazenby did *the* best Bond movie. Take it to the bank!
    2 - The Spy Who Loved Me - Best action sequence at the end. Anyone doubting Moore's ability to not rely on comedy and schtick can be proven wrong.
    3 - Casino Royale - Daniel Craig saved us from that last Brosnan trainwreck!
    4 - Goldeneye - that said, loved Bros in this one.
    5 - Goldfinger - takes place in Kentucky, my home state.
    6 - Live and Let Die - Another case of Moore being a badass.
    7 - Dr. No - because fuckin' Ursula Andress in that bikini. No other reason. Don't need one. :)

    Big fan of OHMSS as well.

    And because the later Moore films were so bad, it's easy to forget how much fun the early ones were.

    I'm one of those pro-Dalton folks, though. Both of his would be in my top seven.
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