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Episode 1495 Talkback - BOMC: Saga, Vol. 1 and 2

Adam_MurdoughAdam_Murdough Posts: 506
edited August 2014 in CGS Episodes & Spin-Offs
It's the story of Alana and Marko--lovers, fighters, new parents, deserters from both sides of a vast interstellar conflict as ancient as it is senseless--who defy all odds to seek a new life for themselves and for their new baby girl, somewhere among the stars. It's a tale of love and war, comedy and tragedy, sci-fi concepts and family values. It's SAGA, the smash-hit space opera/romantic comedy/action/adventure comic by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples, and in this episode covering the first 12 issues of the ongoing series, it commands the Geeks' full attention! (1:14:44)

This is how an episode becomes real...

Comments

  • luke52luke52 Posts: 1,392
    Hands down my favourite book right now. Can't wait to hear what the geeks think of this fantastic book.
  • playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377
    edited August 2014
    First, listening to the guys discuss the 12th issue and "A Night Time Smoke" was so frustrating considering what happens next. I noticed that Chris was very silent on that topic...

    Secondly, the role of the Robot Kingdom... The war between Landfall and Wreath has over the generations become a proxy war, with many nation-worlds fighting for one side or the other throughout the galaxy. The Robot Kingdom is chief among these proxies on the side of Landfall. They command Landfall forces but are more like a sovereign ally. The irony is that the war has expanded so far with these proxies that within the planetary/lunar system of Landfall and Wreath it's actually quite peaceful, with both sides preferring to have their battles fought for them far away from home.

    This is one of the truly great books of the era and I hope the CGS crew revisits it in a year or two for another BOMC episode.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited August 2014
    I plan on listening tomorrow at work and I'm excited to hear what the guys have to say. Saga is by far the best book I'm buying. I had no idea what I was getting into when I bought the first issue but it has been one hell of an awesome ride. Great, great stuff.
  • JaxUrJaxUr Posts: 547
    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    Yes. These are adults. And if the material challenged assumptions they had about comics as a medium, then good. That is a teachable moment, too.
  • luke52luke52 Posts: 1,392
    JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    You're the sort of teacher I wish I had when I was in Uni!
  • JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    I dunno. I read the first issue and I wasn't sold on it either. I know I certainly could have done without the graphic birth scene; that alone convinced me I didn't want to read any further issues... but I wasn't really hooked on anything else in that first issue either.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    No spoilers here but I just read #21 and this book is still amazing. Issues #19-21 have been...well, a continuos punch to the stomach.
  • ElsiebubElsiebub Posts: 338
    edited August 2014
    I would just come out and say that I find the heightened sexual content of the series to be somewhat annoying and pointless overall. Sometimes I think it's sort of cute, but I rarely get a sense that it adds anything to the overall story. The exception being The Will's rescue of the slave girl from Sextillion; there was actual PURPOSE behind the sexualization we saw there. But to me it usually feels more like Vaughn trying to use shockvalue and impress the readership on a cheap level. Usually I'm like "Whoa dude, I would have been really impressed with that and thought it was edgy... if I was still thirteen." I think if most of the sexual content (if you even want to call it "content"; it's mostly just random details) were erased, then virtually nothing would be lost. You could then market the title to children and it'd be as big as Bone.

    Contrast this to something like . . . Preacher, where I think the sex (and violence, for that matter) really adds up to something and says a lot about the characters. With Saga I think the sex stuff is kind of superfluous or disjointed: cheap laughs and quips. I can't quite put my finger on why I feel it doesn't work for me. It's NOT just because Saga is more cartoony than something like Preacher, because there are other more fantastical cartoony works (Cerebus, for one) in which sex stuff works quite well and actually builds up to deep, unique characterizations. You guys mentioned how the dialogue seems sort of like sitcom dialogue, and in that regard I'd say most of the sexual content only serves the characterizations in fairly mundane "sitcom-y" sorts of ways. It just seems thrown in there to pander to the audience.

    That's not to say I'm down on Saga. I like Saga. I've read it from the beginning and would definitely say it was a four-out-of-five-star book or whatever. I just don't think it's a creme-of-the-creme-of-the-creme-of-the-crop book like so many other people apparently do. I'm just not as high on BKV as other people are. I've read a lot of his work... and I've liked ALL of his work that I've read... but I always like it on a 4- or 3.5-star level. I've never been blown away by it. People act like he's the best writer of the last ten years. And while I like him and wouldn't think it ridiculous to see his name on a top ten list, to me his craft and characterizations just aren't nearly as good as, say, Ed Brubaker's.

    But people are saying that Saga is some sort of really innovative work. To me the paradox is that it isn't innovative or original hardly at all... and yet it still seems quite fresh and I'd be hard pressed to name another comic out there that's like Saga. All aspects within the work, from the plot to the characters, seem retreads of things I've seen dozens of times before -- and, please, interspecies sexual content is nothing new in science fiction, or in comic books; those "boundaries" have been pushed a long time ago -- but the overall work still somehow seems quite unique. It's like a really good remix of different things. Even if it isn't unique, it SEEMS like it is. And it's fun to read. And Vol. 3 was the best yet, imo.

    The one aspect of Saga that I DON'T think is overrated is Staples' art. She deserves all the credit she's gotten and is clearly one of the -- if not THE -- top comic artists and character designers out there right now.
  • rebisrebis Posts: 1,820

    JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    I dunno. I read the first issue and I wasn't sold on it either. I know I certainly could have done without the graphic birth scene; that alone convinced me I didn't want to read any further issues... but I wasn't really hooked on anything else in that first issue either.
    I had a similar experience. I know I've read the 1st issue. My only memory of it is a sense that I had read the story before.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited August 2014
    Elsiebub said:

    I would just come out and say that I find the heightened sexual content of the series to be somewhat annoying and pointless overall. Sometimes I think it's sort of cute, but I rarely get a sense that it adds anything to the overall story. The exception being The Will's rescue of the slave girl from Sextillion; there was actual PURPOSE behind the sexualization we saw there. But to me it usually feels more like Vaughn trying to use shockvalue and impress the readership on a cheap level. Usually I'm like "Whoa dude, I would have been really impressed with that and thought it was edgy... if I was still thirteen." I think if most of the sexual content (if you even want to call it "content"; it's mostly just random details) were erased, then virtually nothing would be lost. You could then market the title to children and it'd be as big as Bone.

    To be fair, even if you remove all the nudity and sexuality from this book, the violence would still be graphic enough to make this far from content for children. But it seems that graphic violence is never presumed to be there just to be a cheap shock because we've been raised on so much of it in our stories and comics that we tend to not question the motive behind a beheading or seeing someone shot the same way we do, say, seeing a birth. Or seeing people have sex.

    As for nothing being lost, and of course this is a matter of opinion and preference, but for me if you remove the frankness of the nudity and sexuality from the story, I would feel that it is less a story about adult life and relationships. Which is what it is. I would relate and recognize it less as being about adult like. I would say the same for the language.

    The strength of the series for me is that- while simultaneously being a space fantasy about a star crossed family on the run- it is also about marriage and parenthood. There are actually very few genre comics that include or focus on those elements. Sex is a part of adult life. I don't think it is there to titillate or shock me anymore than I take the sex in an Updike novel to be there to seem edgy. Rather, it makes me feel like I am reading a story set in the grown-up world. That doesn't just have violence and adventure in it, and motivating it, but sex (and birth), too.

    And I respect that may not be the comic that some readers want. But, for me, so far in the series the on-panel nudity and sex has been as essential to the plot, and worlds, of the story as the on-panel graphic violence.

  • alienalalienal Posts: 508
    edited August 2014
    I'll continue to listen to this episode even though I only read the first issue (and THAT was a 1-for-$1 issue). I want to see what the geeks will say. So far, I can tell most were impressed with the first 12 issues (2 trades). As for me however, like @Chuck_Melville and @rebis the 1st issue did nothing for me. Maybe I'll go back and read it again, but I also think Brian K. Vaughn is usually hit-or-miss with me. Y the Last Man? Wonderful! Ex-Machina? So-so. Runaways? So-so. It's funny after listening to a few episodes in a row, I've heard Chris say Vaughn is a master writer and also called Brubaker a master writer. Who is the true master? ;-)
  • luke52luke52 Posts: 1,392

    JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    I dunno. I read the first issue and I wasn't sold on it either. I know I certainly could have done without the graphic birth scene; that alone convinced me I didn't want to read any further issues... but I wasn't really hooked on anything else in that first issue either.
    This was a part of the story I actually really liked. It's perfectly in keeping with the story. The story of Hazels life. Where else to start, but her birth?
  • luke52 said:

    JaxUr said:

    I will be most interested in your Saga comments once I get a chance to listen to the episode. This past semester I assigned volume 1 in my comics course at BGSU. Many of the students were really intrigued by the story but a significant number were actually shocked by the content. These students seemed to believe that the story was overly graphic in terms of he sexuality. I was really surprised by one student who refused to read the whole trade paperback. Others ordered volume 2 to read on their own. I think those who disliked were mostly those who had never read any comics previously and regarded them as kids stuff. Was I correct in assigning this to college undergrads? I think so.

    I dunno. I read the first issue and I wasn't sold on it either. I know I certainly could have done without the graphic birth scene; that alone convinced me I didn't want to read any further issues... but I wasn't really hooked on anything else in that first issue either.
    This was a part of the story I actually really liked. It's perfectly in keeping with the story. The story of Hazels life. Where else to start, but her birth?
    Maybe, but I didn't need to be there to see it. In fact, I really didn't want to see it. And nothing else in that issue compelled me to read on further, so I had no real interest in her life or anyone else's in that story following that issue.
  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    I gave Saga a chance. I couldn't get into it at all. Even after hearing people continually say how great it was, I gave it another shot with the same result, couldn't get any farther into the story. I even tried a third time. This story just isn't for me and that's okay.

    It also didn't help with a small amount yet vocal group of people saying the likes of "if you don't like or aren't reading Saga, you're a f---ing idiot, a damn fool" or insert some other explative insult you would like. That does nothing to help your cause. Sell me on the story, tell me why you enjoy reading it, tell me why I should read it. So just stop it, it's not fair to the creators of the book.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Greg said:

    It also didn't help with a small amount yet vocal group of people saying the likes of "if you don't like or aren't reading Saga, you're a f---ing idiot, a damn fool" or insert some other explative insult you would like. That does nothing to help your cause. Sell me on the story, tell me why you enjoy reading it, tell me why I should read it. So just stop it, it's not fair to the creators of the book.

    Was that happening here? I hope not. I recall a lot of us being enthusiastic about the book (and many of us still are), but I don't recall attacks on those that didn't enjoy it.

  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    edited August 2014
    David_D said:

    Greg said:

    It also didn't help with a small amount yet vocal group of people saying the likes of "if you don't like or aren't reading Saga, you're a f---ing idiot, a damn fool" or insert some other explative insult you would like. That does nothing to help your cause. Sell me on the story, tell me why you enjoy reading it, tell me why I should read it. So just stop it, it's not fair to the creators of the book.

    Was that happening here? I hope not. I recall a lot of us being enthusiastic about the book (and many of us still are), but I don't recall attacks on those that didn't enjoy it.

    I only saw it once here and it was much more polite than I had elsewhere.
  • It's just one of those books that seems to appeal to a certain kind of audience, I guess. Some are going to love it, and some aren't. I'm with Greg, in that the story just isn't for me.
  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    What's odd is that a sci-fi/fantasy space opera is in my wheelhouse. I should for all intents and purposes be reading Saga every month. There is just something there, or not there that is a barrier for me. I have the same problem with other series. Wheel of Time, Dune and Game of Thrones (wth, right?), those are all titles that I should enjoy, but for whatever reason, I have a hard time with them.

    As with most titles that I don't read myself, I like reading and hearing others talk about the stuff they're reading. There is always a chance that something said urges me to give a title that I passed on another try.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited August 2014
    Hey, I don't like Watchmen and refuse to read Preacher...so I don't hold not liking Saga against anyone.
  • RepoManRepoMan Posts: 327

    It's just one of those books that seems to appeal to a certain kind of audience, I guess.

    This is the second time I've seen a comment on the forum trying to "figure out" an audience because of their interest in a project (see the TMNT movie thread). If it's not in good form to call out people for not liking a title, why the need to do the same for readers who do? I think it's fairly clear from the episode, the online support, sales, etc, that Saga does more than just appeal to a certain audience. It appeals to a very very wide variety of readers. And that's a great thing. It's a book that goes beyond demographics.

    More on topic, if the hosts are reading this thread, what did you think of the letter columns or did everyone on the episode read from the trade collections? The letter columns are super fun and go a long way to showcase the variety of readers the book is attracting. Here's hoping Fiona Staples makes her way to Emerald City in the Spring!
  • To each his own, but for those who gave up after just one issue, that first issue barely scratches the surface of the story. It is representative of the tone so if that's what you didn't like, I get it. But story wise it's rich, deeply layered and beautifully executed. Sex, love and life are presented in equal measures to violence, hate and death and the conflicts that arise come from all of those places.

    Personally, I always find it strange that we are so much more uncomfortable with the "Sex, Love, and Life" themes than the "Violence, Hate and Death" themes, even though we are all more likely to encounter the former.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited August 2014

    It's just one of those books that seems to appeal to a certain kind of audience, I guess. Some are going to love it, and some aren't. I'm with Greg, in that the story just isn't for me.

    I would never push the book on someone that doesn't like it. But I will add, just looking at where Saga lands in the sales charts that if it appeals to a certain audience, then I would say that is a pretty big certain audience. I believe only Walking Dead (a title 100 issues older, and with a TV show) consistently beats it in the direct market sales. And Saga has often sold gangbusters digitally, according to what Comixology charts we get to see.

    Again, that is not to say that everyone should love it, or if there is anything wrong with you if you don't like it, or even try a second issue. You like what you like. But I would say that the numbers it sells- especially for an indie, non-licensed, original title- indicate that it is maybe not so polarizing. I feel like it might be downplaying the success and appeal of this book to say that it is for a certain audience. Because the numbers just make it look like a pretty broad success. In a crowded market, usually ruled by the Big 2, it has found a Big 2 sized audience.

    Sure, there might be some of us that vocally really love it, and some who may vocally really not. That may seem polarizing. But somewhere in the middle there are a lot of people who are consistently buying it. In numbers that a lot of Marvel and DC books would love to have:
    21. Saga (Image)

    05/2012: Saga #3 - 38,895
    05/2014: -

    ====

    06-07/2013: -
    08/2013: Saga #13 - 55,372 (+3.8%)
    09/2013: Saga #14 - 55,585 (+0.4%)
    10/2013: Saga #15 - 54,816 (-1.4%)
    11/2013: Saga #16 - 54,593 (-0.4%)
    12/2013: Saga #17 - 53,264 (-2.4%)
    01/2014: Saga #18 - 53,139 (-0.4%)
    02-04/2014: -
    05/2014: Saga #19 - 55,422 (+4.3%)
    Another new arc, new boost in sales. In fact sales return to within a couple hundred copies of the beginning of the last arc, which is very healthy.
  • Perhaps I'm predisposed to seeing Christian influence in every narrative, but I'm seeing very strong parallels to the Nativity of Jesus.
    Consider:
    1. Marco and Alana are different species, Hazel's birth is miraculous or scientifically unlikely.
    2. Her birth is a possibility to bridge a division or schism. In the case of Christ, reconciling humanity to God.
    3. Her birth is considered threatening to the established order, outsiders are sent to find her, her life is threatened.
    4. Her parents are forced to flee.
    5. A supernatural force is instrumental in making her escape and safeguarding her (Isabel).
    6. A book that is very open to interpretation is instrumental in making her birth possible.

    Am I missing any other parallels? Sorry if I didn't flesh out my theories quite enough, this isnt an academic paper...yet
  • I'm enjoying Saga. I'm only up to issue #18. Haven't had time to get to #19 and #20 yet. I think it's a pretty clever read. It's got a rich back story, engaging characters and a bit of a quirky feel to it. Good stuff IMO. I think I'd give it an NC-17 type rating though and would probably keep it away from 13 year olds (and definitely keep it away from 10-11 year olds for that matter).

    I'm with Murd on Hazel's narration. I particularly like the way the writer is able to use it to seamlessly segue to the next scene. It's a well thought out book.

  • I've been enjoying Saga since the first issue (though I still have yet to read the latest one), and this episode of CGS made me want to go back and re-read the first 12 issues! Thank you, kind folks, for this review/discussion/musing on a truly great comic series.
  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178
    I got the first trade for $6 or so. I got halfway through and called it quits. It was just not for me. I gave my trade away in the forums secret santa exchange.

    I am glad however that the book is doing so well. While Saga may not work for me, its success may led publishers to get behind a non supjer hero project that I will enjoy.
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