why do I hate the new52 more as it goes on instead of less? at this point shouldnt it grow on me or become less offensive or just less of a noticeable / big deal? Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
"We're all mad here..."
I think DC had to know they were going to lose some readers in the hopes of gaining others. I'd be lying if I said I loved every single aspect of the New52 Universe (and it's not "New" anymore so I think it's time to just call it the DCU or something else). I don't. But I don't buy the things I don't like or agree with, but focus instead on the things I *do* like. And there's a lot to like right now in the DCU as well. I'm back reading Batman again. If you'd told me five years ago I'd be regularly reading Aquaman or Wonder Woman, I'd have laughed, but both are top-o-the-stack books right now. And the things they're taking chances on have been hit (Demon Knights) or miss (Blackhawks) but god bless 'em for trying.
I'm excited about some of the books coming out for Marvel Now...but I know I'll end up dropping some because they won't be what I'd expected or I just flat out won't like them. The solution is easy...throw that money towards books I *do* like.
Yeah, but I'm on the opposite end of that spectrum. I've stopped reading Batman -- for the first time in decades. Pretty much the same with Superman, except for Action; and I'm not reading Wonder Woman anymore either. I am reading Aquaman, but then, I'm one of the few who has always been reading Aquaman through thick and thin. I'm having trouble reading the Flash, and I've been a big Flash fan for years; fan of all of the Flashes. By my accounting, and I know I'm in the minority, the New 52 has been far more miss than hit.
I am a DC guy all the way. It is the collected editions of old material is what is keeping me and my money into the company and comics. I am down to 2 regular monthlies titles from a new DC 52 peak of 15 to 20 titles. Everything else i get is trades and with the exception of fables, batman, and batgirl everything I get is material that is several years old. I am just not interested in the new stuff anymore.
Also, I feel very strongly that Lobdell's dialogue is horrible and that every other issue he turns Tim into a total douche for seemingly no reason.
One of my primary problems with modern comics is that the heroes are too often jackasses. It's why I quit reading Daredevil (although this new happy happy Archie comics Daredevil has worn out its welcome with me, too). Heroes are not heroes just because they can knock someone through a wall. It's because they have character. I know they often start them out as idiots and then have them mature, but I'm talking about mature characters who do and say jackassy things that you'd discipline your own grade school kids for.
Often people say, "Well, the characters are darker now." Which is code for, "The characters can hit things but you wouldn't trust them to drive your sister home, and this is somehow supposed to impress adult readers." Sometimes I think it's because the writers themselves have no character to inform the stories with.
#1: Everything is shuffled and relabeled, and bears a superficial resemblance to anything I've seen before. #2: Stuff happens. #3: Stuff happens. #4: Stuff happens. #5: Stuff happens that looks a lot like the stuff that was happening in that book over there, but not quite the same stuff at the same time. In fact, that one guy over there seems to pop up in the background in both books. Weird. #6: Stuff happens. #7: Stuff happens. #8: Cool stuff happens. I did not expect that! #9: Stuff happens. #10: Stuff happens. #11: Stuff happens until we have a crossover with three other books that I wasn't even reading. #12: Stuff happens. #0: Stuff happened before the stuff I'm currently reading ever started happening, which was so important that they stopped the story in order to tell me about it. #13: Stuff happens, so much stuff that I am just overwhelmed and thrilled to the point that I don't ever care if I see the end of this story, because we sure as shooting haven't even found the middle of it yet.
I can't wait for the second year to get underway, because I know there's gonna be stuff happening.
One of my primary problems with modern comics is that the heroes are too often jackasses. It's why I quit reading Daredevil (although this new happy happy Archie comics Daredevil has worn out its welcome with me, too). Heroes are not heroes just because they can knock someone through a wall. It's because they have character. I know they often start them out as idiots and then have them mature, but I'm talking about mature characters who do and say jackassy things that you'd discipline your own grade school kids for.
Often people say, "Well, the characters are darker now." Which is code for, "The characters can hit things but you wouldn't trust them to drive your sister home, and this is somehow supposed to impress adult readers." Sometimes I think it's because the writers themselves have no character to inform the stories with.
Somewhere along the line a lot of comic book writers and editors got it in their heads that "mature" storytelling equals graphic physical and sexual violence. And yeah, sometimes that'll happen in stories that appeal to mature audiences (however that is actually defined), but they are not the driving factors that make a story truly mature. Shock for shock's sake is just cheap pandering, and these people patting themselves on the back for these stories being "mature" is offputting to me. Going around saying how grown up you are is about the least grown up thing you can do.
One of my primary problems with modern comics is that the heroes are too often jackasses. It's why I quit reading Daredevil (although this new happy happy Archie comics Daredevil has worn out its welcome with me, too). Heroes are not heroes just because they can knock someone through a wall. It's because they have character. I know they often start them out as idiots and then have them mature, but I'm talking about mature characters who do and say jackassy things that you'd discipline your own grade school kids for.
Often people say, "Well, the characters are darker now." Which is code for, "The characters can hit things but you wouldn't trust them to drive your sister home, and this is somehow supposed to impress adult readers." Sometimes I think it's because the writers themselves have no character to inform the stories with.
Somewhere along the line a lot of comic book writers and editors got it in their heads that "mature" storytelling equals graphic physical and sexual violence. And yeah, sometimes that'll happen in stories that appeal to mature audiences (however that is actually defined), but they are not the driving factors that make a story truly mature. Shock for shock's sake is just cheap pandering, and these people patting themselves on the back for these stories being "mature" is offputting to me. Going around saying how grown up you are is about the least grown up thing you can do.
In keeping with the topic of the thread, has there been instances of sexual violence in the first year of the New 52? I know I heard some noise around Sword & Sorcery #1, but other than that?
Graphic violence, sure. I saw plenty of that in even the first month of the New 52. But has it continued to be the case that sexual violence is common in the books? Are there examples?
Personally, I feel that the reputation for sexual violence in the DC books- while earned at the time by Identity Crisis- has been inflated in the years since, and especially now, 8 years later, seems to me more a reputation than a fact in the work. Especially in the last year or two. But that is just my observation, I haven't read all the books, so my question is a real one, not rhetorical.
To your larger point, I do agree that there are plenty of creators (and I wouldn't limit it to the writers, I am sure there are instances in which the violence gets turned up by the artistic co-author's own sensibilities or desire to sell an art page) who have equated mature with graphic. Though there are also plenty of creators who have found ways to be mature in ways that are more sophisticated. At the end of the day, there is always good work that is effective, and hack work that is not grounded in anything sincere. But that is true whether we are talking about the violence content or even something as uncontroversial as plot and characterization. There will always be good work and hack work.
In keeping with the topic of the thread, has there been instances of sexual violence in the first year of the New 52? I know I heard some noise around Sword & Sorcery #1, but other than that?
Graphic violence, sure. I saw plenty of that in even the first month of the New 52. But has it continued to be the case that sexual violence is common in the books? Are there examples?
Personally, I feel that the reputation for sexual violence in the DC books- while earned at the time by Identity Crisis- has been inflated in the years since, and especially now, 8 years later, seems to me more a reputation than a fact in the work. Especially in the last year or two. But that is just my observation, I haven't read all the books, so my question is a real one, not rhetorical.
To your larger point, I do agree that there are plenty of creators (and I wouldn't limit it to the writers, I am sure there are instances in which the violence gets turned up by the artistic co-author's own sensibilities or desire to sell an art page) who have equated mature with graphic. Though there are also plenty of creators who have found ways to be mature in ways that are more sophisticated. At the end of the day, there is always good work that is effective, and hack work that is not grounded in anything sincere. But that is true whether we are talking about the violence content or even something as uncontroversial as plot and characterization. There will always be good work and hack work.
I'm admittedly generalizing about the idea of perceived maturity in comics as a whole, and I agree that DC has eased up on the rape thing since the days when they pretty much made it Dr. Light's second super power, but yeah, they're still more violent on panel then I'm comfortable with in the context of some of their books.
One of my primary problems with modern comics is that the heroes are too often jackasses. It's why I quit reading Daredevil (although this new happy happy Archie comics Daredevil has worn out its welcome with me, too). Heroes are not heroes just because they can knock someone through a wall. It's because they have character. I know they often start them out as idiots and then have them mature, but I'm talking about mature characters who do and say jackassy things that you'd discipline your own grade school kids for.
Often people say, "Well, the characters are darker now." Which is code for, "The characters can hit things but you wouldn't trust them to drive your sister home, and this is somehow supposed to impress adult readers." Sometimes I think it's because the writers themselves have no character to inform the stories with.
Somewhere along the line a lot of comic book writers and editors got it in their heads that "mature" storytelling equals graphic physical and sexual violence. And yeah, sometimes that'll happen in stories that appeal to mature audiences (however that is actually defined), but they are not the driving factors that make a story truly mature. Shock for shock's sake is just cheap pandering, and these people patting themselves on the back for these stories being "mature" is offputting to me. Going around saying how grown up you are is about the least grown up thing you can do.
I agree. Mature art to me has emotional content. A constant stream of "adult" action happening is not mature.
I wanted to bump this thread back to the top because I’m interested in others’ thoughts on this. Here’s what I don’t understand about this, in my opinion half-ass DC reboot. Geoff Johns, during the pre-Flashpoint (and far superior) DC continuity, established a reputation of not only being very knowledgeable and respectable of DC history and canon, but also enhancing it to some degree yet still remained faithful to said history and canon. He’s one of the big guns at DC now and one of the main architects of this reboot so my question is what the hell happened? Just from Geoff’s name and reputation alone, I expected great things from him regarding this reboot; far more than Dan DiDio and Jim Lee. It’s the main reason I’m both baffled and disappointed at how things seem to be turning out. Is that a fair question regarding Geoff Johns or am I just missing something here? Thoughts!
i recently cut my comic buying down to 5 titles. when the New 52 launched I think i was getting between 15-20 DC titles and i happily consider myself a DC guy. Not a single DC title made the cut down to my final 5. not that any of the titles are terrible but when i had to make drastic cuts they were not the one on turned out to be enjoying and looking forward to consistently week after week.
I feel you random73. I just purchased a Kindle Fire HD (LOVE IT) and yet I’ve cut down considerably on my reading of current comic books and catching up on trades (ex: Walking Dead) and past comic story arcs (particularly from the pre-Flashpoint DC). I’ve been primarily a DC reader since my teens so this is almost heartbreaking. Geoff Johns has some ‘splainin to do.
I think despite what's been said we can't lump it 100% on Geoff Johns' shoulders. The man has had/does have/will continue to have amazing ideas and likely will until he quits the biz or dies.
Comics at DC are written by editorial decree now - and while Johns is no doubt a part of that process, and perhaps a BIG part, he's still just a part. The perception is that the writer and artist are now interchangeable parts who exist to follow what the "board" decrees.
So you're Geoff Johns, and the board says "We need to shake things up - have Wonder Woman and Superman fall in love." You might say "What about Lois?" and the group may answer "What about her?" and you do a storyline where Wonder Woman and Superman fall in love - continuity, history, or consumer loyalty be damned. It's done so people flock to buy that Justice League cover with the two of them kissing, it's publicized out the yang, and sales on the book spike nicely.
Compare this to the "older" model (and we're talking way back - the New 52 process isn't really that new) - where writer Geoff Johns gets an idea to have Diana and Clark fall in love, and he has a really cool idea for it that he develops into a coherent pitch, takes it to his editor, the editor says "Yes, this is a great idea" and Geoff runs with it and tells us the story he wanted to tell us, not what a group of people in a room told him to tell us. And because they didn't hype the heck out of it, it hits everyone like a ton of bricks. Holy cheese! Superman and Wonder Woman just kissed!
Caveat: I'm saying all this like I've actually been to the DC offices and know 100% this is how it's done. I haven't and I don't. But we've read enough about the processes going on that I feel it has some "truthiness" to it. :)
i recently cut my comic buying down to 5 titles. when the New 52 launched I think i was getting between 15-20 DC titles and i happily consider myself a DC guy. Not a single DC title made the cut down to my final 5. not that any of the titles are terrible but when i had to make drastic cuts they were not the one on turned out to be enjoying and looking forward to consistently week after week.
Wow man. I mean, I wasn't buying comics at all before, and the whole New 52 thing did get me interested again. I started reading them at the library and recently got a subscription to 2 titles (after a great sale at tanga.com) but I feel you.
I think things would be so much better for the writers if they had gone all the way and just started over. Instead some things are left over, some aren't, some titles are ahead of others (like Superman vs. Action Comics).
I am a green arrow fan, but i can't deal with this version, i just don't enjoy it. i like the flash as a character and that title has been good but not great. the Bat titles i was collecting (Batman, Batgirl, Nightwing, Red hood) were all good but not top 5 great.
Hawkeye Indestructable Hulk Saga Daredevil All New X-Men
...made the top 5. (subject to change at any time with or without notice)
i might flip through it at the shop and see if anything has changed but really unless i'm getting Green Arrow/Black Canary-hard travelling heroes-longbow hunters classic Ollie the answer will be no
A few weeks ago, my LCS forgot to pull my copies of Aquaman and Batman Inc. and I didn't notice until much later, and just kinda shrugged my shoulders when I realized. Figured that was a sign of my emotional investment in those books and cut them from my pull list. I'm down to just 2 DC books now: Supergirl and Worlds' Finest. For the first time since middle school, I'm getting more of my superhero fix from Marvel than DC.
That's not a linewide indictment, by the way, just an observation. I still have that first All Star Western trade sitting in my stack waiting to be read, and one of these days I'm going to pick up that first Wonder Woman trade since I liked the issue or two I read of that after the relaunch.
But if I'm being honest, on the whole I'm enjoying the new directions of the DC universe far less than I am those of Marvel right now. That's not to say that I think the DCnU sucks, I'm just saying it isn't for me. I'm not much of a continuity wonk, so I'm content to get my DC fix from back issue finds and collected editions of older stuff. In that regard, it's actually a great time to be a near-middle-aged fanboy, because it's easier to find this stuff than ever.
A few weeks ago, my LCS forgot to pull my copies of Aquaman and Batman Inc. and I didn't notice until much later, and just kinda shrugged my shoulders when I realized. Figured that was a sign of my emotional investment in those books and cut them from my pull list. I'm down to just 2 DC books now: Supergirl and Worlds' Finest. For the first time since middle school, I'm getting more of my superhero fix from Marvel than DC.
That's not a linewide indictment, by the way, just an observation. I still have that first All Star Western trade sitting in my stack waiting to be read, and one of these days I'm going to pick up that first Wonder Woman trade since I liked the issue or two I read of that after the relaunch.
But if I'm being honest, on the whole I'm enjoying the new directions of the DC universe far less than I am those of Marvel right now. That's not to say that I think the DCnU sucks, I'm just saying it isn't for me. I'm not much of a continuity wonk, so I'm content to get my DC fix from back issue finds and collected editions of older stuff. In that regard, it's actually a great time to be a near-middle-aged fanboy, because it's easier to find this stuff than ever.
I was liking the relaunch but now the new direction they wanted to take just seems very boring. All the books just are "meh" after what looked like a very promising start. It seems like there is not consistency in the creative teams, most are off the book after a few issues.
The only books I really enjoy is batman and inc., justice league is alright and I'm hopping on Wonder Woman with the new gods stories.
This Marvel NOW relaunch just seemed to completely surpass the new 52 reboot IMO. Maybe 6 months later ill be saying the same thing but DC hasn't been exciting for me for the past 6-8 months.
Comments
Often people say, "Well, the characters are darker now." Which is code for, "The characters can hit things but you wouldn't trust them to drive your sister home, and this is somehow supposed to impress adult readers." Sometimes I think it's because the writers themselves have no character to inform the stories with.
What series is this!?
#1: Everything is shuffled and relabeled, and bears a superficial resemblance to anything I've seen before.
#2: Stuff happens.
#3: Stuff happens.
#4: Stuff happens.
#5: Stuff happens that looks a lot like the stuff that was happening in that book over there, but not quite the same stuff at the same time. In fact, that one guy over there seems to pop up in the background in both books. Weird.
#6: Stuff happens.
#7: Stuff happens.
#8: Cool stuff happens. I did not expect that!
#9: Stuff happens.
#10: Stuff happens.
#11: Stuff happens until we have a crossover with three other books that I wasn't even reading.
#12: Stuff happens.
#0: Stuff happened before the stuff I'm currently reading ever started happening, which was so important that they stopped the story in order to tell me about it.
#13: Stuff happens, so much stuff that I am just overwhelmed and thrilled to the point that I don't ever care if I see the end of this story, because we sure as shooting haven't even found the middle of it yet.
I can't wait for the second year to get underway, because I know there's gonna be stuff happening.
Graphic violence, sure. I saw plenty of that in even the first month of the New 52. But has it continued to be the case that sexual violence is common in the books? Are there examples?
Personally, I feel that the reputation for sexual violence in the DC books- while earned at the time by Identity Crisis- has been inflated in the years since, and especially now, 8 years later, seems to me more a reputation than a fact in the work. Especially in the last year or two. But that is just my observation, I haven't read all the books, so my question is a real one, not rhetorical.
To your larger point, I do agree that there are plenty of creators (and I wouldn't limit it to the writers, I am sure there are instances in which the violence gets turned up by the artistic co-author's own sensibilities or desire to sell an art page) who have equated mature with graphic. Though there are also plenty of creators who have found ways to be mature in ways that are more sophisticated. At the end of the day, there is always good work that is effective, and hack work that is not grounded in anything sincere. But that is true whether we are talking about the violence content or even something as uncontroversial as plot and characterization. There will always be good work and hack work.
Comics at DC are written by editorial decree now - and while Johns is no doubt a part of that process, and perhaps a BIG part, he's still just a part. The perception is that the writer and artist are now interchangeable parts who exist to follow what the "board" decrees.
So you're Geoff Johns, and the board says "We need to shake things up - have Wonder Woman and Superman fall in love." You might say "What about Lois?" and the group may answer "What about her?" and you do a storyline where Wonder Woman and Superman fall in love - continuity, history, or consumer loyalty be damned. It's done so people flock to buy that Justice League cover with the two of them kissing, it's publicized out the yang, and sales on the book spike nicely.
Compare this to the "older" model (and we're talking way back - the New 52 process isn't really that new) - where writer Geoff Johns gets an idea to have Diana and Clark fall in love, and he has a really cool idea for it that he develops into a coherent pitch, takes it to his editor, the editor says "Yes, this is a great idea" and Geoff runs with it and tells us the story he wanted to tell us, not what a group of people in a room told him to tell us. And because they didn't hype the heck out of it, it hits everyone like a ton of bricks. Holy cheese! Superman and Wonder Woman just kissed!
Caveat: I'm saying all this like I've actually been to the DC offices and know 100% this is how it's done. I haven't and I don't. But we've read enough about the processes going on that I feel it has some "truthiness" to it. :)
I think things would be so much better for the writers if they had gone all the way and just started over. Instead some things are left over, some aren't, some titles are ahead of others (like Superman vs. Action Comics).
Hawkeye
Indestructable Hulk
Saga
Daredevil
All New X-Men
...made the top 5. (subject to change at any time with or without notice)
Green Arrow (1st issue) pants
Wonder Woman (14 issues) BUY
Flash (issue 1 - 13) borrow
Batman (1st trade) BUY
Detective (12 issues) Pants
Batwoman (1st trade) Pants
Batman and Robin (1st trade) Buy
Superman (issue 1-6) Pants
Green Lantern (issue 1-13) borrow
Green Lantern Corp (issue 1-13) Pants
Supergirl (issue 1-4) borrow
World's Finest (issue 1-7) buy (but maybe not for long)
Earth 2 (issue 1-4) Pants
All Star Western (1st Trade) borrow
Cat woman (1st trade) BUY
Batman Dark Knight (1st issue) Pants
Justice League (issue 1-o issue) Pants
JLI. (issue 1-7) Pants
Aqua Man (issue 1-14) BUY
Batgirl (1st trade) buy
Birds of Prey (1st trade) Buy
Action Comics (issue 1-9) borrow
That's not a linewide indictment, by the way, just an observation. I still have that first All Star Western trade sitting in my stack waiting to be read, and one of these days I'm going to pick up that first Wonder Woman trade since I liked the issue or two I read of that after the relaunch.
But if I'm being honest, on the whole I'm enjoying the new directions of the DC universe far less than I am those of Marvel right now. That's not to say that I think the DCnU sucks, I'm just saying it isn't for me. I'm not much of a continuity wonk, so I'm content to get my DC fix from back issue finds and collected editions of older stuff. In that regard, it's actually a great time to be a near-middle-aged fanboy, because it's easier to find this stuff than ever.
There's a few largely-standalone books from each I still like, but I have finally become terminally evented out.
The only books I really enjoy is batman and inc., justice league is alright and I'm hopping on Wonder Woman with the new gods stories.
This Marvel NOW relaunch just seemed to completely surpass the new 52 reboot IMO. Maybe 6 months later ill be saying the same thing but DC hasn't been exciting for me for the past 6-8 months.