Episode 1283 Talkback: Skype Me with Julian Lytle

Pants

Julian Lytle returns to the show as we test drive Skype for the first time. Julian tells us all about the recent MorrisonCon and gives us his theory on Avengers vs X-Men. It's been said before, but the man is plantanas! (1:46:46)

Listen here.

Dman

It’s always a pleasure to hear Mr. Julian Lytle and in this episode, my brother was giving an extra dose of PLANTANAS (sp?) REAL TALK! Like Pants, I didn’t even think of Julian’s theory to Marvel’s possible, how should I say, profit minded scheme via the A vs. X event but I have to admit , it makes a lot of sense. I wonder if this same theory could be apply to DC and their mostly goofy NuDC/52 thingamajig. Hmmm!

matchkitJOHN

You should from here on out ALWAYS make the attempt to get your future guest on skype! Tired of turning the volume up when the guest talks and the sound down when the hosts talks. Thank you!

Matt

we CANNOT CONTROL the volume OF our VOICES!

M

ChrisBeckett

Matt said:

we CANNOT CONTROL the volume OF our VOICES!

M

See what Matt did there. He modulated the volume of his voice ... IN YOUR HEAD.

peedmyself

I haven't listened to it yet, but if Skype really does normalize the volume I'd like your convention interviews to be done over Skype as well. Can't fail idea.

electric_mayhem

great interview and was glad to help Mr. Lytle get to Las Vegas.

KyleMoyer

The volume was fine, but the disappearing voice every now and then wasn't.

Greg

Always good to hear Julian and really dug his theory at the end. You know damn well we will probably see a White Phoenix product of some kind.

wordballoon

Julian yelling about Marvel not catering to a grown man sounded like a guy yelling at Nestles Quick not mixing well with vodka.

Of course there's going to be toys coming out of plot points. Of course Marvel is going to try and line up the comics better with its movies.

Comics are cyclical, and there are going to be ideas that will be trotted out and either embraced or forgotten, like the clone saga or whatever.

And yes, the company does want to hang on to its characters for multi-million dollar films, as oppsoed to letting them get sucked into a bad movie deal they made at least 15 years ago when they were broke. Can you blame them?

This is nothing new. DC (Then National) slimmed Alfred down to match their Cliffhanger movie version of him. They also introduced the Batcave and entering it through the grandfather clock. DAMN NATIONAL, for not keep our Batman comics pure.

Like I've said on my own podcast, mainstream comics are like magic tricks. If the disappearing coin isn't your thing anymore, maybe you've outgrown it ? But the first timer seeing the trick is going to be blown away.

Just offering another side to this discussion.

Matt

wordballoon said:

Julian yelling about Marvel not catering to a grown man sounded like a guy yelling at Nestles Quick not mixing well with vodka.

Of course there's going to be toys coming out of plot points. Of course Marvel is going to try and line up the comics better with its movies.

Comics are cyclical, and there are going to be ideas that will be trotted out and either embraced or forgotten, like the clone saga or whatever.

And yes, the company does want to hang on to its characters for multi-million dollar films, as oppsoed to letting them get sucked into a bad movie deal they made at least 15 years ago when they were broke. Can you blame them?

This is nothing new. DC (Then National) slimmed Alfred down to match their Cliffhanger movie version of him. They also introduced the Batcave and entering it through the grandfather clock. DAMN NATIONAL, for not keep our Batman comics pure.

Like I've said on my own podcast, mainstream comics are like magic tricks. If the disappearing coin isn't your thing anymore, maybe you've outgrown it ? But the first timer seeing the trick is going to be blown away.

Just offering another side to this discussion.

I see this as less as bad vodka mix, but less bang for my buck. I enjoy Tasty Cake brownies. Now the price has remained to same for the part few years, but the size has shrunk.

I recall a couple years ago glad to see PopTarts came with an extra 2pack for the same cost. THEN I saw the product size shrank.

Now, although I do see where you're coming from with the coin trick, shouldn't that magician try to challenge him/herself to be more innovated than Only having 1 trick? Losing old audience members & relying on new isn't good for business either. In a forthcoming episode, I'll be discussing how PhantonLand at a Swedish zoo opened in 1986, but closed April 2010 because children aren't familiar enough with the character.

That's one of my big issues with the Big Two right now. There's this drive to get new readers, but its costing them current readers. In my business courses, we learned that 20% of your customers make up 80% of your business. Ideally, you want that 20% to increase, but how much of that 80% of solid business do you want to risk sacrificing?

I'll admit over the last 10 years I've grown very jaded & cynical, but sometimes my perception is less overblown when things are more transparent.

M

julianlytle

wordballoon said:

Julian yelling about Marvel not catering to a grown man sounded like a guy yelling at Nestles Quick not mixing well with vodka.

Of course there's going to be toys coming out of plot points. Of course Marvel is going to try and line up the comics better with its movies.

Comics are cyclical, and there are going to be ideas that will be trotted out and either embraced or forgotten, like the clone saga or whatever.

And yes, the company does want to hang on to its characters for multi-million dollar films, as oppsoed to letting them get sucked into a bad movie deal they made at least 15 years ago when they were broke. Can you blame them?

This is nothing new. DC (Then National) slimmed Alfred down to match their Cliffhanger movie version of him. They also introduced the Batcave and entering it through the grandfather clock. DAMN NATIONAL, for not keep our Batman comics pure.

Like I've said on my own podcast, mainstream comics are like magic tricks. If the disappearing coin isn't your thing anymore, maybe you've outgrown it ? But the first timer seeing the trick is going to be blown away.

Just offering another side to this discussion.

No it's actually when trying to sell Kraft cheese and macaroni as some great meal for adults when it's best served as the dope cheap kids thing with the cheese dinosaur.

You say "OF COURSE" like it's a good thing or that it's actually executed well. For me and my stance it isn't.

Actually yes I can. If you're that salty about the deal just buy it back and make a bunch of good product to make up that cost.

I wonder how many first timer is going to see this trick with stuff they already know about?

wordballoon

shouldn't that magician try to challenge him/herself to be more innovated than Only having 1 trick?

Not when that trick still works on the intended audience. Mainstream Marvel books are aimed at 14 year olds, and those folks didn't read the first X-Men Vs Avengers battle, or know that Prof X died twenty times in the past 30 years. Most Marvel 14 year old readers likely didn't read CIVIL WAR or Secret Invasion either.

You're right, they do risk losing their current audience who after 10 plus years of reading have seen the tricks many times...but they've been taking that same risk every 10 years or so since 1961. DC since the 40's.

I'm an older reader, and it's my generation and guys like Lance Kinstler (spelling. I think he listens to you guys too) who've seen the tricks since the early 70's , who accept this as the way they do business and still read mainstream comics. The only "power" readers have is to decide whether we'll invest in the current stories, or not.

Your choice, but that doesn't make the Big 2 wrong that their "14 year old story material" isn't working for 25-50 year olds.

stop shopping in the kids department

wordballoon

Julian says No it's actually when trying to sell Kraft cheese and macaroni as some great meal for adults when it's best served as the dope cheap kids thing with the cheese dinosaur.

You say "OF COURSE" like it's a good thing or that it's actually executed well. For me and my stance it isn't.

Actually yes I can. If you're that salty about the deal just buy it back and make a bunch of good product to make up that cost.

I wonder how many first timer is going to see this trick with stuff they already know about?



J- you say it's meant to be adult entertainment, but I don't hear Marvel saying that.

Further I know some tweeners who LOVED A V X and their minds were blown by the events of #11 & 12.

You have every right to feel it sucked, but again it sounds more like to me that maybe you've outgrown mac & cheese .

Matt

wordballoon said:

shouldn't that magician try to challenge him/herself to be more innovated than Only having 1 trick?

Not when that trick still works on the intended audience. Mainstream Marvel books are aimed at 14 year olds, and those folks didn't read the first X-Men Vs Avengers battle, or know that Prof X died twenty times in the past 30 years. Most Marvel 14 year old readers likely didn't read CIVIL WAR or Secret Invasion either.

You're right, they do risk losing their current audience who after 10 plus years of reading have seen the tricks many times...but they've been taking that same risk every 10 years or so since 1961. DC since the 40's.

I'm an older reader, and it's my generation and guys like Lance Kinstler (spelling. I think he listens to you guys too) who've seen the tricks since the early 70's , who accept this as the way they do business and still read mainstream comics. The only "power" readers have is to decide whether we'll invest in the current stories, or not.

Your choice, but that doesn't make the Big 2 wrong that their "14 year old story material" isn't working for 25-50 year olds.

stop shopping in the kids department

Actually, I have. I don't know if I can back your claim Marvel is geared toward 14 year olds. So, readers start in Marvel than move on to adult themes of DC? That doesn't sound right. Wasn't Stan Lee's concept than these books are for anyone? Anyone could pick up any book and be ready to go? I believe that's why Marvel use to have a quick origin of the character at the beginning of each book.

If Marvel sent out a memo stating "we want only 14 years reading our books," than I've been blacklisted from their mailing list.

M

julianlytle

wordballoon said:

shouldn't that magician try to challenge him/herself to be more innovated than Only having 1 trick?

Not when that trick still works on the intended audience. Mainstream Marvel books are aimed at 14 year olds, and those folks didn't read the first X-Men Vs Avengers battle, or know that Prof X died twenty times in the past 30 years. Most Marvel 14 year old readers likely didn't read CIVIL WAR or Secret Invasion either.

You're right, they do risk losing their current audience who after 10 plus years of reading have seen the tricks many times...but they've been taking that same risk every 10 years or so since 1961. DC since the 40's.

I'm an older reader, and it's my generation and guys like Lance Kinstler (spelling. I think he listens to you guys too) who've seen the tricks since the early 70's , who accept this as the way they do business and still read mainstream comics. The only "power" readers have is to decide whether we'll invest in the current stories, or not.

Your choice, but that doesn't make the Big 2 wrong that their "14 year old story material" isn't working for 25-50 year olds.

stop shopping in the kids department

I don't buy that 14 year old demo thing either. I don't really see many 14 year old folks in comic shops too often. Especially spending $4 on a comic book. Hey it might be different in Chicago but most of the people buy these books are in in their mid 20s to older. At least that's what I've seen from going to LCSs over the past 10-12 years or so.

These stories are marketed and sold to people my age and a bit younger because the OG story came out a really long time ago. And it doesn't even seem to be told in a way that is anything like young adult fiction at all. hell the fights wasn't even that cool. I know more teens and kids who watch Adventure Time and were excited by that comic than I did for AvX. So who are they trying to reach with this? I don't know if we're reading the same thing if it's supposed to be interesting to modern teenagers?

wordballoon

The Marvel ratings system


ALL AGES - appropriate for all ages.
A - Appropriate for age 9 and up.
T+ TEENS AND UP - Appropriate for most readers 13 and up, parents are advised that they might want to read before or with younger children.
PARENTAL ADVISORY - 15 years and older. Similar to T+ but featuring more mature themes and/or more graphic imagery.
MAX: EXPLICIT CONTENT - 18 years old. Most Mature Readers books will fall under the MAX comics banner (created specifically for mature content titles), MAX and Mature-themed titles will continue to be designed to appear distinct from mainline Marvel titles, with the "MAX: Explicit Content" label very prominent on the cover. MAX titles will not be sold on the newsstand, and they will not be marketed to younger readers.

Most Marvel mainstream books are rated T+

Disney, which is primarily in the Infant toTweener (10-14 year olds market) kids business didn't buy Marvel and their IPs hoping to connect with 20-40 year old men .

That's just the way it is.

No Matt, don't go to DC expecting a difference cause they too are aiming for the same audience.

Guys I'm not saying stop reading mainstream books, I'm saying expect these things because of who the books are aimed at, how they've been doing business for their entire publishing careers, and why they may want to reset/change continuity every now and then to allow them to exploit their properties beyond this 5-6 figure audience and reach out to the TV and film audiences which are in the millions.

Matt

wordballoon said:

The Marvel ratings system


ALL AGES - appropriate for all ages.
A - Appropriate for age 9 and up.
T+ TEENS AND UP - Appropriate for most readers 13 and up, parents are advised that they might want to read before or with younger children.
PARENTAL ADVISORY - 15 years and older. Similar to T+ but featuring more mature themes and/or more graphic imagery.
MAX: EXPLICIT CONTENT - 18 years old. Most Mature Readers books will fall under the MAX comics banner (created specifically for mature content titles), MAX and Mature-themed titles will continue to be designed to appear distinct from mainline Marvel titles, with the "MAX: Explicit Content" label very prominent on the cover. MAX titles will not be sold on the newsstand, and they will not be marketed to younger readers.

Most Marvel mainstream books are rated T+

Disney, which is primarily in the Infant toTweener (10-14 year olds market) kids business didn't buy Marvel and their IPs hoping to connect with 20-40 year old men .

That's just the way it is.

No Matt, don't go to DC expecting a difference cause they too are aiming for the same audience.

Guys I'm not saying stop reading mainstream books, I'm saying expect these things because of who the books are aimed at, how they've been doing business for their entire publishing careers, and why they may want to reset/change continuity every now and then to allow them to exploit their properties beyond this 5-6 figure audience and reach out to the TV and film audiences which are in the millions.

Okay, so than most Marvel books are PG-13. Live Free or Die Hard & Taken were PG-13, but I wouldn't say they were geared strictly for the teenage crowd. They can get more money by opening the audience who can go to the theatre to see them.

Does that mean all media T+ or PG-13 should be dumbed down to appeal to young teenagers rather have stories interesting & fresh for adults?

I've actually stopped reading DC long before I stopped reading Marvel. I did read the #1s of the New52 and I don't think the sex, violence, themes, & female costume redesigns weren't for the 20-25 year old male audience.

M

wordballoon

I'll agree that DC clearly was shooting for an older audience with the new 52, but I do think that Marvel is aiming for that 14 year old, and doesn't really care that they're re-hashing a basic plot that older readers will see as being played out.

Like I said they've been doing that for decades, and are willing to sacrifice the older readers who roll their eyes at killing a character, heroes fighting heroes, etc.

Matt

wordballoon said:

I'll agree that DC clearly was shooting for an older audience with the new 52, but I do think that Marvel is aiming for that 14 year old, and doesn't really care that they're re-hashing a basic plot that older readers will see as being played out.

Like I said they've been doing that for decades, and are willing to sacrifice the older readers who roll their eyes at killing a character, heroes fighting heroes, etc.

Than Marvel's plan is at least partially working!

M

julianlytle

wordballoon said:

The Marvel ratings system


ALL AGES - appropriate for all ages.
A - Appropriate for age 9 and up.
T+ TEENS AND UP - Appropriate for most readers 13 and up, parents are advised that they might want to read before or with younger children.
PARENTAL ADVISORY - 15 years and older. Similar to T+ but featuring more mature themes and/or more graphic imagery.
MAX: EXPLICIT CONTENT - 18 years old. Most Mature Readers books will fall under the MAX comics banner (created specifically for mature content titles), MAX and Mature-themed titles will continue to be designed to appear distinct from mainline Marvel titles, with the "MAX: Explicit Content" label very prominent on the cover. MAX titles will not be sold on the newsstand, and they will not be marketed to younger readers.

Most Marvel mainstream books are rated T+

Disney, which is primarily in the Infant toTweener (10-14 year olds market) kids business didn't buy Marvel and their IPs hoping to connect with 20-40 year old men .

That's just the way it is.

No Matt, don't go to DC expecting a difference cause they too are aiming for the same audience.

Guys I'm not saying stop reading mainstream books, I'm saying expect these things because of who the books are aimed at, how they've been doing business for their entire publishing careers, and why they may want to reset/change continuity every now and then to allow them to exploit their properties beyond this 5-6 figure audience and reach out to the TV and film audiences which are in the millions.

sorry I don't go by ratings to tell me who a story is aimed towards.
And Disney as a pretty huge company like money from every age. Did you know they make Disney Princess wedding dresses. These aren't for tweens these are for grown women getting married. Not everything on ABC is for tweens either. I'd also go on limb as say that even though Pixar films are general audiences it's in a lot of way written for an older audience in terms of themes and motivation of character.

it would be nice if Marvel did just reset everything instead of try to have it's cake and eat it too. I give DC credit for that, I may not enjoy the current reboot but I like that they had the guts to do it.

Also i just don't see their current ways of telling stories in the comics as really being that interesting to masses. Maybe some seeds but not the whole thing. At least to me. they should take some hints from the cartoons and start distilling down to the core or take some lessons from Manga.

KyleMoyer

No, Disney bought Marvel to make money. Period. The Avengers movie did that. So have all of their movies.

If Marvel really was trying to reach the 14 year old demographic I'd applaud them for getting new fans, but I don't see very many 14 year olds in the comic book shops when I go to them.

luke52

Great episode. Julian's theory was on the money. But then everything nowadays revolves around money. Money is what drives everything. And to be honest we should be used to it now. That still doesn't make it any easier when the things we love are changed suddenly and/or taken away from us. I guess we've just got to roll with the punches instead of opposing these things. If you just drop books when things change or the status quo is shifted this time next year none of us would be reading anything from the big two. Maybe indies are the way forward???

warpangel

I enjoyed the episode mostly but found it really hard to keep listening once Julian went on his rant. Especially as Julian was also making a big point about doing the cons to 'make money'. Funny, thats why Marvel liscence figures, movie rights and everything else they can. it's a franchise and a business at the end of the day. You can bitch all you want about Wolverine being an avenger, but Marvel still make great comics too. and if it means Hawkeye doesnt have his funky costume anymore so new readers can relate to him better, then fair enough. there's a lot more important things in the universe that I could really give a shit about. :D

julianlytle

warpangel said:

I enjoyed the episode mostly but found it really hard to keep listening once Julian went on his rant. Especially as Julian was also making a big point about doing the cons to 'make money'. Funny, thats why Marvel liscence figures, movie rights and everything else they can. it's a franchise and a business at the end of the day. You can bitch all you want about Wolverine being an avenger, but Marvel still make great comics too. and if it means Hawkeye doesnt have his funky costume anymore so new readers can relate to him better, then fair enough. there's a lot more important things in the universe that I could really give a shit about. :D

First i'd say I'm equal to marvel once I get paid 4 billion dollars for anything I make. It also costs me money to go to a con. it's nice to see people I know from all over but it's much better when I can cover that cost.


Second making money doesn't mean that they can't at least try to make a totally consistent, well made story. It happens all the time in other media and other comics in other events they've made in the past. I don't have an issue with Wolverine being an Avenger. Heck he's been one of the most popular superheroes for decades now, he deserves to be on the "marquee" team more than a lot of other characters.

Third. I don't think anyone had a problem with Hawkeye to begin with. Does the many people who first saw Hawkeye in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 have an issue with his outfit? Or the kid who first saw him in the Avengers Earth Mightest Heroes cartoon? Or the decades of people who first saw him a comic back in the day or hell earlier this decade. I don't know about that.

seb_pinter

Hey guys, good episode. I always enjoy Julian's appearances on the show and his ideas were very interesting, certainly food for thought...

White Phoenix isn't a new idea, or new title. I'm pretty sure it was Grant Morrison who coined it ("White Phoenix of the Crown")! I think that was in his last issue of New X-Men.

The set up of Morrisoncon sounds very cool, reminds me of the All Tomorrows Parties music festival. Every year they pick an artist to curate the festival and pick the bands. It's all indoors and very intimate and you're rubbing shoulders with the bands watching other bands or hanging out in the bar (well that's what the UK one is like any way)

warpangel

Morrisoncon did sound kinda cool, the 'hellfire club' of comic-cons. only the elite get to see it! :D
and yes, White Phoenix was around several years ago, Jean became White Phoenix in the mini series 'Phoenix: End Song'. To me the White costume represents 'control' of the Phoenix. I dont think Hope would have gone on a rampage, she was in perfect synch.

seb_pinter

warpangel said:

Morrisoncon did sound kinda cool, the White Phoenix was around several years ago, Jean became White Phoenix in the mini series 'Phoenix: End Song'.

It was before that... in Morrison's run at the end of Here Comes Tomorrow

Corwin

seb_pinter said:

White Phoenix isn't a new idea, or new title. I'm pretty sure it was Grant Morrison who coined it ("White Phoenix of the Crown")! I think that was in his last issue of New X-Men.

seb_pinter said:

warpangel said:

Morrisoncon did sound kinda cool, the White Phoenix was around several years ago, Jean became White Phoenix in the mini series 'Phoenix: End Song'.

It was before that... in Morrison's run at the end of Here Comes Tomorrow

Afraid it was around a lot longer than that...way back to the Claremont back ups in X-Men Classic.

Corwin

@julianlytle I had to really sit back and think about your theory. And in a lot of ways it makes sense. But we've really got to see how Marvel does this going forward.

I thought what the Phoenix Force did was reignite the mutant gene. So there should be new mutant births, powers kicking in at puberty and people who have had a deactivated x gene now being active. New Mutants will show up in Wolverine and the X-Men since they're probably brought into the Jean Grey school. I'm sure we'll see mutants popping up in the X-Men books.

As for the movies influencing the comics...it's got to be all about bringing in new readers and making it fresh for new eyes.

Corwin

As for the Infinity Gem the Illuminati came together and considered it was reasoned that using one uncontrollable cosmic power versus another wouldn't be a good thing...