Episode 1285 Talkback: Off the Racks

Pants

Our Marvel choice for this month's off the rack was delayed so Jamie and Shane discuss Avengers vs. X-men #12 instead. We then talk about Sword of Sorcery #0 from DC and Stumptown Volume 2 from Oni Press and briefly go over some of the other DC zero issues. (1:06:10)

Listen here.

JaxUr

I'm looking forward to your zero issue discussion. I really enjoyed the Flash and Aquaman issues in particular. The art and characterization of Arthur Curry's young adulthood was first rate in every respect. I'm sorry to see this creative team move on but they've done a swell job in rehabing Aquaman's image.

Elsiebub

Marvel Now as "a year late and a dollar over" made me laugh out loud!

elkinscs

I gotta say, my opinion on the DC stuff is really starting to diverge with you guys. Justice League was marvelous. Yes, what Billy did with the whole accepting money thing was very unheroic, but that's because he is learning how to be a hero. I see some really cool potential in that. Green Lantern and Flash 0 were absolutely fabulous. Especially Flash. Then again, as someone who is not a lifelong DC guy, Barry Allen IS my Flash, so I cede that point to you. All of the bat-0's (with the exception of inc. as it's the only one I'm not reading) were fantastic and I didn't think Snyder missed a beat on his. The one 0 issue I hated? Wonder Woman. Cool art, neat and kitschy, but the story was incredibly boring and read like math homework.

Separately, AVX 12 was good, not great, but as someone who has soured on Marvel over the last year, I will say that it has me more interested in the NOW stuff. @Elsiebub, ditto.

luke52

I really like Sword of Sorcery. Amethyst was awesome. I can't wait for more of that. I think it will be set in both worlds which could be hit or miss. At the moment u want to see more of Gemworld. I was also a bit shocked by the rape scene, seemed a little out if place to me. But everything in Gemworld just popped. The story and art hooked me.

Beowulf was interesting as a back up too. The art was really cool. And I'm intrigued to see where the story goes.

The whole thing with Billy Batson and his new attitude I think is a good direction. I hated that whole 'gee wizz' attitude. Man that just annoyed me. They've made Billy more real. Him taking money and his attitude after the life he's had so far is justified. He's a pissed off kid not a hero. This is what hooks me most about Justice League and in particular SHAZAM right now. I want to see that evolution from pissed off kid, who's a bit of a dick, but clearly has a good heart into the hero he's obviously destined to become.

LibraryBoy

I still think DC's plan for the last decade has been to make Captain Marvel/Shazam as unpalatable as possible so that people stop comparing him favorably to Superman. And possibly because they *still* hold a grudge that he outsold Superman back in the 40s.

Everyone's entitled one cockamamie conspiracy theory. That one's mine!

Mr_Cosmic

I have to admit I was surprised Jamie didn't like AVX 12.

Matt

Although Jamie didn't directly tell me he disliked the last issue, I got that feeling based on his comments following Julian's theory on an earlier episode.

M

rebis

I get the feeling that the difference between those that like DCnU and those that don't is going to be a generational thing. I'm around Jamie's age. JLA #1 was one of the worst comics I've ever read and the new take on Captain Mar ... sorry ... Shazam, while beautifully drawn, just doesn't interest me. The JLA acting like dickish teens isn't interesting and Billy being a dickish teen even less so.
Btw, that new Shazam outfit is fugly. A hood and two layers of cape. Kirby dots in the lightening bolt. Lee lines all over the damn place.

Really?

and, AvX 12 was boring.

LibraryBoy

rebis said:

I get the feeling that the difference between those that like DCnU and those that don't is going to be a generational thing. I'm around Jamie's age. JLA #1 was one of the worst comics I've ever read and the new take on Captain Mar ... sorry ... Shazam, while beautifully drawn, just doesn't interest me. The JLA acting like dickish teens isn't interesting and Billy being a dickish teen even less so.
Btw, that new Shazam outfit is fugly. A hood and two layers of cape. Kirby dots in the lightening bolt. Lee lines all over the damn place.

What he said!

elkinscs

@LibraryBoy, I don't think they're intentionally tanking Shazam to make Supes look good, I think they're trying to distinguish the two. In the golden age they were really derivative of one another and DC has been trying to put some space between the two for a long time. Now they have been successful. I can't sing the praises of the new Shazam enough. I love it. Needs an ongoing.

Chuck_Melville

Yeah, I'm not feeling it for the new version of Captain Marvel either. I think that innocence really was at the heart of the character, both as Cap and as Billy, and this new, angry Batson is really pretty unappealing. I don't think making him 'edgy' makes him a better or more interesting character; I think being an innocent, and trying to maintain that basic innocence, in an edgy and dark world is far more daring and interesting.

LibraryBoy

elkinscs said:

@LibraryBoy, I don't think they're intentionally tanking Shazam to make Supes look good, I think they're trying to distinguish the two. In the golden age they were really derivative of one another and DC has been trying to put some space between the two for a long time. Now they have been successful. I can't sing the praises of the new Shazam enough. I love it. Needs an ongoing.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but if you're digging it, that's great. I'm glad someone is... I wish it was me, of course, since Captain Marvel is my favorite superhero, but still. There's plenty of older material I haven't read that I can fall back on, so at least there's that.

Also I'd say that most of the Captain's similarities to Kal-El are superficial and the two digress pretty quickly once you start getting beneath the surface, but that's a rant for another day. :-B

LibraryBoy

Chuck_Melville said:

Yeah, I'm not feeling it for the new version of Captain Marvel either. I think that innocence really was at the heart of the character, both as Cap and as Billy, and this new, angry Batson is really pretty unappealing. I don't think making him 'edgy' makes him a better or more interesting character; I think being an innocent, and trying to maintain that basic innocence, in an edgy and dark world is far more daring and interesting.

Exactly. The idea of Billy Batson being capital-G Good, despite having such a crap life and dealing with so many terrible situations, is what makes him appealing on so many levels. That's why I loved the Superman/Shazam Showcase Presents animated short, because they managed to convey that without making him look like a goody two shoes (which, as much as I liked his appearances on Brave and the Bold, they totally played up). He's the kid who stands up for someone being bullied, who shares his food with a mouse, and who tells the local hooker she looks pretty. Of course he's worthy of the power of Shazam; he's a hero already. Making a character like that into the character we have now... well, that's a metaphor for my feelings about how and where DC has been headed for the last decade, underlined with a lightning bolt.

Chuck_Melville

You know who would be a good writer for Shazam!? Mark Waid. He handled the character briefly in a couple of team-ups in the Flash back when he was writing it, and in Underworld Unleashed. He had a good handle on the character, and I think he would do a superlative job on it today.

random73

Chuck_Melville said:

You know who would be a good writer for Shazam!? Mark Waid. He handled the character briefly in a couple of team-ups in the Flash back when he was writing it, and in Underworld Unleashed. He had a good handle on the character, and I think he would do a superlative job on it today.

well yeah. Mark Waid could just write ALL the comics and i'd be fine with that but i guess we have to give somebody else a chance. :D

poisonelf1

The problem for me is if shazam is a kid in a superhero body!
I for one think from day one when he was brought back after the 80's crisis he should have been in Teen Titans all along!
Wouldn't that make sense it's a team of kids learning to be heroes!

random73

I liked Freddy as the Captian in Trials of Shazam.

I am not a fan of the overly campy Big Red Cheese era of the Marvel Family.

The Gary Frank art is outstanding.

Billy in this issue makes the same statement to the wizard that I would make to some of you now. Nobody is capital G Good. We are all of us more than one thing dispite the face we may show in public. I am intrigued by the concept of potential and how that is playing out here. I like that these kids talk and behave like kids. at 12 or 13 my friends and i discussed sex adn religion and politics and philosophy and heros and villans and music and perhaps our thoughts on the subjects were niave but we still wrestled with ideas. probably not in terribly sophicticated ways but we were becoming aware of the more complex notions about morality. so i see this version of Billy as closer to what i remember reality being like as an adolescent. There is a lot of simultaneous pride and shame in growing up. as a parent i always found it challenging to not force my kids into a box and for my own peace of mind pretend they were not troubled by issues of drug abuse, racial tension, faith, violence and on and on ad infinitum but honestly they were almost certainly aware of the larger world far before i was prepared for them to be. I'd like to let Billy be a real boy for a while and see where this story is going.

CaptShazam

The new take on Shazam may be closer to reality for the attitude of a young boy, but we are talking about a kid getting powers based from mythical gods from an ancient wizard so what does reality have to do with this at all? There was room in the DC universe for a Capital G good Billy Batson / Shazam as a counterpoint for the gloom and doom everything is life or death of the rest of the entire dc universe.
As for the story, while I understand the wizard is running out of time, he took the risk to make another Black Adam by giving someone the power who only has the "the potiential" to be good. Not the wisest of wizards. He would have been safer not giving out the power and let the other super heros deal with Black Adam.
After saying all this, if they gave even this version of Shazam his own title, I would buy it. I am a sucker like that.

LibraryBoy

random73 said:

Nobody is capital G Good. We are all of us more than one thing dispite the face we may show in public. I am intrigued by the concept of potential and how that is playing out here. I like that these kids talk and behave like kids. at 12 or 13 my friends and i discussed sex adn religion and politics and philosophy and heros and villans and music and perhaps our thoughts on the subjects were niave but we still wrestled with ideas. probably not in terribly sophicticated ways but we were becoming aware of the more complex notions about morality. so i see this version of Billy as closer to what i remember reality being like as an adolescent. There is a lot of simultaneous pride and shame in growing up. as a parent i always found it challenging to not force my kids into a box and for my own peace of mind pretend they were not troubled by issues of drug abuse, racial tension, faith, violence and on and on ad infinitum but honestly they were almost certainly aware of the larger world far before i was prepared for them to be. I'd like to let Billy be a real boy for a while and see where this story is going.

What made the Marvel Family so interesting was that for so long they were completely free of the cynicism that affected the rest of the comic book world. Add that back in, and you lose a lot, maybe even most, of what made them unique. Maybe "real" kids aren't like that, but that's an awfully broad generalization to make, don't you think? And let's be completely honest here, too - these characters were not created with teenagers in mind.

rebis

Chuck_Melville said:

You know who would be a good writer for Shazam!?

Grant Morrison. His characterization of Billy in Superman Beyond was dead on.

CaptShazam

rebis said:

Chuck_Melville said:

You know who would be a good writer for Shazam!?

Grant Morrison. His characterization of Billy in Superman Beyond was dead on.

That is a great idea. If anybody could make Shazam fun, keep the original spirit of the character, and make is sell it would be Morrison.

Chuck_Melville

I'd still prefer Waid, but... yeah, I could see Morrison doing it.

Corwin

Wow Jamie...you think they've wiped things clean? Scarlet Witch still has that stigma, Cyclops now has a stigma and the Marvel U will fear and hate the mutants even more.

Honestly though, how much farther could Marvel push the Mutants? How much farther could they push the mutants? Where could they have gone? Enough people were complaining about Cyclops' direction for the X-Men so it felt like it was time for change. The Phoenix has jump started the X gene there won't be any threat of it corrupting mutants. It wouldn't be the first time it saved the mutant race.

(Don't worry Jamie...Marvel will pull you back in...I'll say March. Let's how you'll see in March.)

Corwin

Oh snap! Jamie I JUST finished the 10th Amber (Roger Zelanzy) book!
I really wish there was an ending to the series so I was kind of left hanging. Sucks that he died before finishing it...

MikeGallagher

The amber series is great!!!

I think there will be an event sometime soonish that will involve a mutant war. Maybe that's when they will bring back prof x. I am amazed jean isn't back yet.

Corwin

MikeGallagher said:

The amber series is great!!!

I think there will be an event sometime soonish that will involve a mutant war. Maybe that's when they will bring back prof x. I am amazed jean isn't back yet.

Never, never, never, never, Jean should NEVER COME BACK!

And I can live without Prof X. Even though Mike Carey made him interesting again Marvel wasn't doing jack with him. He's more important dead than alive.

Speaking of Amber, I heard there was a book that collected a bunch of short stories including one that was after the last book.

rebis

Corwin said:

MikeGallagher said:

The amber series is great!!!

I think there will be an event sometime soonish that will involve a mutant war. Maybe that's when they will bring back prof x. I am amazed jean isn't back yet.

And I can live without Prof X. Even though Mike Carey made him interesting again Marvel wasn't doing jack with him. He's more important dead than alive.

Yes! Just like Barry Allen.

um

random73

@corwin there are the John Gregory Bettancourt books written with authorization of the Zalazney estate from Rogers notes. They revolve around a young Oberon and his family. Obviously these are FAR Inferior to the original Zelazney stuff but...you know us Geeks and collectors...and as for the short stories. There are 6-8 that appeared in various fanzines and sci if mags over the years but I don't believe they have been collected in print. However! I had a buddy several years ago who scavenged them all from disparate sources and gave me a Kinkos soft cover spiral bound copy for maybe Christmas one year? If you can't find them I might could hook you up with a copy.

random73

And yes. Random comes from the books.

Corwin

random73 said:

@corwin there are the John Gregory Bettancourt books written with authorization of the Zalazney estate from Rogers notes. They revolve around a young Oberon and his family. Obviously these are FAR Inferior to the original Zelazney stuff but...you know us Geeks and collectors...and as for the short stories. There are 6-8 that appeared in various fanzines and sci if mags over the years but I don't believe they have been collected in print. However! I had a buddy several years ago who scavenged them all from disparate sources and gave me a Kinkos soft cover spiral bound copy for maybe Christmas one year? If you can't find them I might could hook you up with a copy.

@random73 Unless you give me the thumbs up I'll pass on the prequels. But let me know how much it would cost to get a copy of that other book and I will PayPal you. I really appreciate the offer. My wife got me the Great Book of Amber which is all ten books in one. I was sorely disappointed when I finished book 10 (last week) and realized that there wasn't any other books. And was it me or was there a homage to Lord of the Rings with Merle's spike (ring) and their being 8 others...

Corwin is actually my real name. I found out about Amber when I met Mike Carey a few years back.