Episode 1318 Talkback: Off the Racks: ASM #700, Black Beetle #0, Whistling Skull #1

Pants

We discuss Amazing Spider-Man #700 from Marvel, Black Beetle #0 from Dark Horse and JSA Libery Files: The Whistling Skull #1 from DC in this episode plus Jamie gives his thoughts on the first two chapters of the Aquaman/Justice League crossover 'Throne of Atlantis'. (1:14:00)

Listen here.

sandman

I was a little let down by Peter dying at the end of ASM #700. If Peter could have regenerated Doc Ock's body that he's trapped in, or transferred himself into an Ock borg or something, then you could have Peter trapped in Ock's body having to scheme to trap Spider-Man so that he could try to switch themselves back. I think there could have been some good stories in that, and I'm kind of disappointed that were not going to get to see that.

sandman

Jaime, Dan Slott was the writer on ASM #600. I believe he's been the regular writer since #600, and that he's been planning on making this move ever since then.

sandman

I agree with Shane that I was a little put off by the part of Doc Ock seeing Peter's memories. Just because that stuff is important to Peter doesn't mean that its going to be important to Ock. Doc Ock has been a villain and has hurt people without caring. Just because Peter feels one way doesn't mean that Doc Ock would care now.

Greg

Can't listen until I get home.

I'm not buying it. We saw the devices that allowed Otto to map Pete's brain, but most of the work was done off panel. I think the groundwork for Pete's return is already in motion, we just haven't seen it. Mark my words, Peter Parker is not "dead."

Slott was the writter on #600 but I don't consider him to be the regular full time writer until #647. He wrote most of ASM since #546, there are gaps he didn't write, a few in double digit numbers.

abuddah

Agree with Shane 100%. Couldn't swallow the faux science or the tacked on ending or the schmaltzy trip to heaven. It's stunt storytelling and nothing as compelling as something Joss Whedon or Brian K Vaughan could accomplish. Jamie you're really that jazzed to see the adventures of Doc Ock as Spiderman? Well why don't we have Deadpool put on the Cap suit? Or Reed Richards get turned into the Hulk? These are flimsy headline grabbers as hackneyed as gender reversals of an established Superhero (see Ms. Dr. Fate). There are plenty of ways to tell a good Spiderman story without reverting to this claptrap.

abuddah

Jamie you keep saying "the balls" to enact "permanent change", yet Murd and many others have pointed out this is a 3-6 month stunt at best. This is the illusion of change, same as it ever was.

sandman

abuddah said:

Jamie you keep saying "the balls" to enact "permanent change", yet Murd and many others have pointed out this is a 3-6 month stunt at best. This is the illusion of change, same as it ever was.

I didn't really see this as being such a ballsy move ether since they already did this in Ultimate Spider-Man. I don't know why they thought they had to do the same thing in two comics.

Ozgipsy

This was the end of a long running series... I have no doubt that peter Parker's death is about to become a fixed point in the Marvel universe, just like the death of Gwen Stacey, or Cap's recovery from the ice.

I have ben waiting to hear you guys take on #700 and I was not disappointed. Thanks.

rebis

Very disappointed with Whistling Skull. Thought the first two Liberty Files stories were outstanding and was looking forward to revisiting this corner of the DCU. Hopefully, we get more of The Clock, The Owl, & perhaps The Cat. However, it was mentioned that The Cat went down for a 9th time. That might be all we see of that character.

Chuck_Melville

rebis said:

Very disappointed with Whistling Skull. Thought the first two Liberty Files stories were outstanding and was looking forward to revisiting this corner of the DCU. Hopefully, we get more of The Clock, The Owl, & perhaps The Cat. However, it was mentioned that The Cat went down for a 9th time. That might be all we see of that character.

I hadn't read -- or even knew about -- the first two series, so I've been a bit lost in the first issue of this series. I recognize these are alternate versions of the JSA, but I'm having a bit of trouble following along. Maybe it'll improve with the next couple of issues.

Mr_Cosmic

I think Jamie's point was that at the end of #700 Peter did not win and things did not go back to the status quo. He brought up past events because they were examples of stories that teased big changes but did not, in the end, deliver. Nobody doubts Peter will be back in his body again. In fact Jamie said that in the episode. What is ballsy is that they've taken their number one hero(the 616 one btw), killed him, replaced him with his greatest villain, and gave him his own book.

JamieD

Mr_Cosmic said:

I think Jamie's point was that at the end of #700 Peter did not win and things did not go back to the status quo. He brought up past events because they were examples of stories that teased big changes but did not, in the end, deliver. Nobody doubts Peter will be back in his body again. In fact Jamie said that in the episode. What is ballsy is that they've taken their number one hero(the 616 one btw), killed him, replaced him with his greatest villain, and gave him his own book.

Exactly

Greg

sandman said:

I agree with Shane that I was a little put off by the part of Doc Ock seeing Peter's memories. Just because that stuff is important to Peter doesn't mean that its going to be important to Ock. Doc Ock has been a villain and has hurt people without caring. Just because Peter feels one way doesn't mean that Doc Ock would care now.

Otto wasn't just seeing memories. As Peter was dying Otto experienced the full extent of Peter's life flashing before his eyes, not seeing years upon years of memories, he was experincing it, feeling what Peter felt. That much emotion crammed into your being in a very short amount of time is going to have a profound effect on you. If you have seen the episode The Inner Light of Star Trek: TNG, Otto went through pretty much the same thing as Picard.

Matt

I still have zero interest in reading ASM 700, but I'm curious how Ock was able to retain Peter's memories. If his brainwaves (or whatever) swapped with Peter's, then wouldn't it have erased his...or at the very least accompanied Peter when his brainwave went into Ock's?

Plus, if Ock is able to retain those memories & experiences, wouldn't that help drive him insane? Having 2 sets of memories & experiences (especially some from both sides if the same situation from whenever Spidey & Ock fought) become confusing & lead to an identity crisis? It sounds like there's a mental time bomb waiting to happen.

M

NKQ

Another great episode! Thank you CGS for all the great entertainment you've provided me in 2012. I look forward for more of the same in the year ahead. Now I have to check out ASM 700 for myself!

larry

I agree with @Rebis. The Whistling Skull book was very disappointing. I read it twice because I thought I must have been missing something. It seemed like there may have been pages missing. Definite pants.

I enjoyed ASM 700 a lot and was impressed with Slott's ability to shock me with an ending that I knew was coming.

Great episode guys. I enjoy these episodes a lot and look forward to playing at home next month!

clubofheroes

Great episode gang. I had ASM #700 spoiled for me weeks ago, but I still got a rush reading the issue. The bit where Doc Ock and Peter recite that quote from an older issue about Uncle Ben being "worse than a room full of alarm clocks" really got to me. I'm interested to see where this goes and hopefully it won't be undone too quickly. The back-up story by J.M. Dematties was a great read as well. I didn't get Whistling Skull or Black Beetle, but you may have sold me on the latter. Is this the same feller who did The Black Coat? His name sounded familiar.

Corwin

Greg said:

sandman said:

I agree with Shane that I was a little put off by the part of Doc Ock seeing Peter's memories. Just because that stuff is important to Peter doesn't mean that its going to be important to Ock. Doc Ock has been a villain and has hurt people without caring. Just because Peter feels one way doesn't mean that Doc Ock would care now.

Otto wasn't just seeing memories. As Peter was dying Otto experienced the full extent of Peter's life flashing before his eyes, not seeing years upon years of memories, he was experincing it, feeling what Peter felt. That much emotion crammed into your being in a very short amount of time is going to have a profound effect on you. If you have seen the episode The Inner Light of Star Trek: TNG, Otto went through pretty much the same thing as Picard.

You beat me to it...and I LOVE the shock when Doc Ock realizes that Peter would do everything the same even if it meant his (Peter) death. That shock plus actually "living" Peter's life and realizing how Peter has actually been holding back...great stuff or as @JamieD says, "Winning one for the fat people in the world!" LMMAO! I love it!

Matt said:

I still have zero interest in reading ASM 700, but I'm curious how Ock was able to retain Peter's memories. If his brainwaves (or whatever) swapped with Peter's, then wouldn't it have erased his...or at the very least accompanied Peter when his brainwave went into Ock's?

Plus, if Ock is able to retain those memories & experiences, wouldn't that help drive him insane? Having 2 sets of memories & experiences (especially some from both sides if the same situation from whenever Spidey & Ock fought) become confusing & lead to an identity crisis? It sounds like there's a mental time bomb waiting to happen.

M

SSSSSSSHHHHHHH you're spoiling Amazing Spider-Man #750...

LOL if you think about it, no actual physical brain matter was moved. One was just "copied" over the other...so naturally the original data is still there.

Everyone knows that you can never truly "destroy" all data on a hard drive right? The only way to truly destroy data on a hard drive?



Slott has a wonderful interview on the Word Balloon podcast...he's been seeding this since Amazing #600 and didn't even clue in anyone until the last year or two. Marvel almost didn't even let him do it, you have to listen to how hard he fought for it...it was truly a perfect storm.

LOL a lot of people missed a major part of the "grandpa Spider-Man story"...when he retired he had his named changed. It was Peter telling the story...

TheMarvelMan

Murd, Murd, Murd!

I cannot agree with you more! On what do we agree?!

1) Amazing Spider-Man #700 is a BUY!!
2) Doc Ock is Spidey's #1 villain!
3) Humberto Ramos is WAY over-rated!

Nuff said!

LibraryBoy

ASM 700 was a low buy/high borrow for me. I kinda called the outcome based on all of the pre-release hype for Superior Spider-Man, and it's an interesting-if-easily-reversible direction to go in, but I don't know if it's a direction *I'm* interested in following right now. I really enjoyed the back-ups, though, particularly the Jen Van Meter/Stephanie Buscema Black Cat story. I've been a fan of Stephanie's art for a few years now, and I met her at a con last year and she was super nice, so I'm glad to see her art show up in such a high-profile book as this.

Black Beetle #0 is also a buy. It might not tread new ground (yet?), but it does what it does really well. It's sharp, it's stylish, and the ending has me curious to check out more to see what's going on.

Didn't read Whistling Skull. Haven't read any of the other Liberty Files books, and Harris's recent anti-geek-girl ranting made me pretty much want to completely ignore his current and future work, so I'll be skipping this entirely.

sandman

Greg said:

sandman said:

I agree with Shane that I was a little put off by the part of Doc Ock seeing Peter's memories. Just because that stuff is important to Peter doesn't mean that its going to be important to Ock. Doc Ock has been a villain and has hurt people without caring. Just because Peter feels one way doesn't mean that Doc Ock would care now.

Otto wasn't just seeing memories. As Peter was dying Otto experienced the full extent of Peter's life flashing before his eyes, not seeing years upon years of memories, he was experincing it, feeling what Peter felt. That much emotion crammed into your being in a very short amount of time is going to have a profound effect on you. If you have seen the episode The Inner Light of Star Trek: TNG, Otto went through pretty much the same thing as Picard.

It could possibly have an effect on you. But that doesn't mean that it would have an effect on a villain who doesn't care about people. Or it could effect him in a different way than it effected Peter. Another person experiencing Peter's life could become callus, angry, hateful, revengeful, everything that's opposite of what Peter is.

sandman

Matt said:

I still have zero interest in reading ASM 700, but I'm curious how Ock was able to retain Peter's memories. If his brainwaves (or whatever) swapped with Peter's, then wouldn't it have erased his...or at the very least accompanied Peter when his brainwave went into Ock's?

Plus, if Ock is able to retain those memories & experiences, wouldn't that help drive him insane? Having 2 sets of memories & experiences (especially some from both sides if the same situation from whenever Spidey & Ock fought) become confusing & lead to an identity crisis? It sounds like there's a mental time bomb waiting to happen.

M

The mental time bomb could be a possibility. The way the characters talk/think gives the impression that they can choose to access the other set of memories like searching for a file on a hard drive, or flipping through chapters in a book.

seb_pinter

Greg said:

sandman said:

I agree with Shane that I was a little put off by the part of Doc Ock seeing Peter's memories. Just because that stuff is important to Peter doesn't mean that its going to be important to Ock. Doc Ock has been a villain and has hurt people without caring. Just because Peter feels one way doesn't mean that Doc Ock would care now.

Otto wasn't just seeing memories. As Peter was dying Otto experienced the full extent of Peter's life flashing before his eyes, not seeing years upon years of memories, he was experincing it, feeling what Peter felt. That much emotion crammed into your being in a very short amount of time is going to have a profound effect on you. If you have seen the episode The Inner Light of Star Trek: TNG, Otto went through pretty much the same thing as Picard.

Yeah, I'm surprised no-one realised what was going on. All through 699 and 700 Peter is behaving like Doctor Octopus and questioning why. It seemed pretty clear cut to me that Oc's memories and experiences were influencing him, and thus, the effect would be the same for Otto in Spidey's body.

Thought the issue was OK, but lacked any real emotional punch - we got the scene where Uncle Ben tells him he's not done yet, but when he is done, we don't get anything? Why? Because you can't have Peter happily re-united with Uncle Ben and Gwen et all in the afterlife only to yank him away from it in 18 months...

I see this whole story as being a similar thing to what Bendis did with Dark Avengers. It was temporary, we all knew it was, but it was a fun ride

Corwin

seb_pinter said:

Thought the issue was OK, but lacked any real emotional punch - we got the scene where Uncle Ben tells him he's not done yet, but when he is done, we don't get anything? Why? Because you can't have Peter happily re-united with Uncle Ben and Gwen et all in the afterlife only to yank him away from it in 18 months...

Yeah! Marvel wouldn't have the balls to do it...But Whedon* did!

BOOM!

(Yeah, it's a slow day at work and I'm bored...sorry.)

*Buffy

alienal

Didn't read Whistling Skull, Black Beetle, or JL/Aquaman crossover yet, but that Amazing-Spiderman #700! Awesome! I was just amazed that the brain reversal WASN'T switched back! Like Jamie said, that took balls to carry that over to a brand-new book with the villain as the lead character.

bralinator

So those that called the Peter Parker / Doc Ock switcheroo a 6 month change "at best" (I was in that camp myself) have been proven to be mistaken. We're now in month 9 and up to 20 issues in... Any thoughts or feelings about Superior Spider-Man and do you think it was an improvement over the previous incarnation of the web-head in recent years? I'm on-board.

Chuck_Melville

Still not reading it.

bralinator

So does that mean you had been reading it up to issue #700?

Chuck_Melville

No, I stopped 'way back after One More Day and haven't yet been persuaded to come back.

Peter

Then why comment? It was clearly asked for comments about either Superior Spider-Man or if it was an improvement over the previous incarnation. Since you can't speak to either, you're just being negative for negative sake.

I've said it in various places: Superior Spider-Man is THE example right now of "all-ages comics". I'm surprised I'm still reading it. It gives me the same feeling that I had when reading comics in the 80s. Not nostalgia driven. Just that - this is a superhero comic done for the enjoyment of continuity wonks, new readers, younger readers, etc. I'm not always on board with the art though. I prefer the "fill-in" artists over Stegman (I put fill-in in quotes because Stegman really hasn't done enough issues in a row to warrant that he is the main artist on the book). All in all - still reading with the anticipation of how it will all resolve at some point in the future.