As for there being the letters "WTF" on the covers, I don't think it is harmful (and is certainly less troubling, in my opinion, for a kid to see on a cover than some very violent covers that can easily be found). . . I just think it is lame. Lame in that 'some grown-ups in the marketing department are trying to talk like the kids these days' way that tends to always be embarassing and transparent. It is an attempt at cool that ends up just seeming (at least from this distance-- fair point that the content of the books cannot yet be judged) like something attempting to be what cool looks like.
And, more importantly, it is another time- like the zero issue month-- when an across the board editorial gimmick interrupts with the various creative teams on these books are doing by demanding they all do the same thing. It is a reminder of how top-down and editorially driven DC seems to be. Perhaps these days more than ever.
I couldn't agree with this any more. I recall being a teenager & rolling my eyes when adults tried to talk slang. My mom still uses the phrases "don't go there" & "talk to the hand" despite the 90s calling her for its catchphrases back. Currently, she'll throw out an "OMG", "TMI", or even a "WTF." It's embarassing!
I'm curious how many people will truly be turned off to this stunt and skip the issues or drop titles completely.
Nope, you're not alone. DC is doing way more right than wrong...
I'm not seeing any evidence of that.
It's subjective, sure, but I think the main reason you're not seeing any evidence of it is nobody's talking about the good aspects of the reboot. It's much easier to gripe about what they're doing in Batman or that Superman doesn't have underwear outside the suit anymore.
In the meantime, Wonder Woman's knocking it out of the park, Demon Knights continues to kick all kinds of ass despite a change in creative team, Aquaman is relevant again, All-Star Western is a book that demands to be read, Amethyst is back and her book is really good, Justice League Dark (despite sounding like a candy bar) is a solid read...heck, even the stumbles have had some merit. Resurrection Man was well done right up to the end (and we finally got closure to it), Blackhawks was awkward but God bless 'em for trying something. I've enjoyed the Teen Titans and Legion books as well, perhaps not to the level that I did earlier iterations, but that doesn't mean they're horrible. Even in the Bat camps you've got Batwoman, Batgirl, and Red Hood all delivering great stories. And while I'm biased toward Supergirl as a longtime fan...I *love* this version of her.
So yeah, the evidence is out there. We're just not willing to look for or at it. It's much easier to curse the darkness than light a candle, I suppose.
Nope, you're not alone. DC is doing way more right than wrong...
I'm not seeing any evidence of that.
It's subjective, sure, but I think the main reason you're not seeing any evidence of it is nobody's talking about the good aspects of the reboot. It's much easier to gripe about what they're doing in Batman or that Superman doesn't have underwear outside the suit anymore.
In the meantime, Wonder Woman's knocking it out of the park, Demon Knights continues to kick all kinds of ass despite a change in creative team, Aquaman is relevant again, All-Star Western is a book that demands to be read, Amethyst is back and her book is really good, Justice League Dark (despite sounding like a candy bar) is a solid read...heck, even the stumbles have had some merit. Resurrection Man was well done right up to the end (and we finally got closure to it), Blackhawks was awkward but God bless 'em for trying something. I've enjoyed the Teen Titans and Legion books as well, perhaps not to the level that I did earlier iterations, but that doesn't mean they're horrible. Even in the Bat camps you've got Batwoman, Batgirl, and Red Hood all delivering great stories. And while I'm biased toward Supergirl as a longtime fan...I *love* this version of her.
So yeah, the evidence is out there. We're just not willing to look for or at it. It's much easier to curse the darkness than light a candle, I suppose.
My problems with Superman go beyond the loss of his red trunks.
I found most of the Bat-books to be less than they could have been, or even what they once were, Batgirl being a possible exception, and Batwing being the more interesting.
Amethyst threw away the charm that made it appealing to its original audience (teenage girls) in order to become yet another D&D book (although I grant you that Christy Marx as writer still gives it enough magic to work). Aquaman and JLD are indeed winners, and I don't see much difference in All-Star Western from the previous Jonah Hex apart from setting. As for the rest, however highly you may regard them, they aren't all that impressive: they've either already withered and died on the vine, or are close to it. Most of the New52 are doing either mid-range or they're dying slow, agonizing deaths; that's not really a ringing endorsement of acceptance. Only the Justice League and the Batman books are doing exceptionally well, and I have major disagreements with the general fandom over the quality of the latter. Watch for Demon Knights to be among the next round of cancellations.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Demon Knights go in the next wave. In fact I'm all but expecting it. I don't equate that to a "loss" though. It was a wholly unique take on a few DC staple characters (and some new ones), and it tried something different. Again - "God bless 'em for trying."
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
In the interest of fairness, I'm giving Marvel the same opportunity. It will be interesting to see what title of theirs I'm still actively reading in about 15 months.
As for there being the letters "WTF" on the covers, I don't think it is harmful (and is certainly less troubling, in my opinion, for a kid to see on a cover than some very violent covers that can easily be found). . . I just think it is lame. Lame in that 'some grown-ups in the marketing department are trying to talk like the kids these days' way that tends to always be embarassing and transparent. It is an attempt at cool that ends up just seeming (at least from this distance-- fair point that the content of the books cannot yet be judged) like something attempting to be what cool looks like.
And, more importantly, it is another time- like the zero issue month-- when an across the board editorial gimmick interrupts with the various creative teams on these books are doing by demanding they all do the same thing. It is a reminder of how top-down and editorially driven DC seems to be. Perhaps these days more than ever.
agreed. particularly the "some grown-ups in marketing departments are trying to talk like kids these days" bit. for an additional example of this phenomenon see Adam Ants new Cool Zombie video. I love Adam Ant but this joker is almost unwatachably terrible. it has somebody in a marketing department going "hey! Zombies and Pirates and hip these days lets shove them together with an old man doing a goofy James Brown meets Heathcliff Huxtable dance and make a video! This can't go wrong!" it went wrong.
Nope, you're not alone. DC is doing way more right than wrong...it's just more fun to gripe about the wrong stuff.
They earned extra points today for bringing back two old-time favorites of mine - Ambush Bug and Bethany Snow. Give yourself an extra no-prize if you know who BOTH those people are without resorting to any Google-Fu.
Where did Ambush Bug show up?
Speaking of old favorites.. Has anyone seen or heard of plastic man showing up or coming back in the new 52?
Why marked this poor guy as "Off Topic"? he is just following to flow of conversation. and the guy only has 5 posts. way to be friendly and welcoming.
No, Dangerbird, sorry, I myself havn't heard anything about Plas.
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
The point of mentioning the sales figures is that is the only real gauge of how successful a book is or isn't. If it can't sustain itself in the market, then it really hasn't captured the interest of its intended audience. Or else that audience isn't there in any significant number. You can argue that a book is creatively successful, but if it winds up getting cancelled then it doesn't matter -- it's still gone without making much of an impact. Apart from the initial interest over the relaunch, DC really hasn't caught the interest of most fans outside of a few titles.
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
The point of mentioning the sales figures is that is the only real gauge of how successful a book is or isn't. If it can't sustain itself in the market, then it really hasn't captured the interest of its intended audience. Or else that audience isn't there in any significant number. You can argue that a book is creatively successful, but if it winds up getting cancelled then it doesn't matter -- it's still gone without making much of an impact. Apart from the initial interest over the relaunch, DC really hasn't caught the interest of most fans outside of a few titles.
Is that necessarily true? I seem to recall another thread that talked about the New 52 doing precisely what it set out to do - bolster sales and renew interest - and deeming it a success on that front. Granted, it didn't do that with Demon Knights, but going to back to the original statement, I still feel they're doing more right than wrong with the reboot.
Nope, you're not alone. DC is doing way more right than wrong...it's just more fun to gripe about the wrong stuff.
They earned extra points today for bringing back two old-time favorites of mine - Ambush Bug and Bethany Snow. Give yourself an extra no-prize if you know who BOTH those people are without resorting to any Google-Fu.
Where did Ambush Bug show up?
Speaking of old favorites.. Has anyone seen or heard of plastic man showing up or coming back in the new 52?
Why marked this poor guy as "Off Topic"? he is just following to flow of conversation. and the guy only has 5 posts. way to be friendly and welcoming.
Probably the same one who marked my Metamorpho/crazy girl/ question as off-topic. Annoying, but that's how it is.
And speaking of Plastic Man, I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
Nope, you're not alone. DC is doing way more right than wrong...it's just more fun to gripe about the wrong stuff.
They earned extra points today for bringing back two old-time favorites of mine - Ambush Bug and Bethany Snow. Give yourself an extra no-prize if you know who BOTH those people are without resorting to any Google-Fu.
Where did Ambush Bug show up?
Speaking of old favorites.. Has anyone seen or heard of plastic man showing up or coming back in the new 52?
Not as yet. There are a lot of DC stars who haven't as yet reemerged: Adam Strange, Metamorpho, Red Tornado, Doom Patrol, the Green Glob...
I thought Metamorpho was replaced by that.... crazy woman in Flashpoint.
She only existed within the Flashpoint continuity.
Huh. She was seen with The Justice League in the FCBD DC Comics - The New 52.
The New 52 bolstered sales and renewed interest initially. I was clearly on board and excited for some new adventures but a couple years in...my interest is now nil and i have dropped every DC title I was collecting. So really, after an initial boost (and again this is my own anecdotal experience) they dropped further that they were before. i don't think that qualifies as a long term win if the broader market reflects a similar trend. as for DC doing "more right than wrong". I respectfully disagree, basically for the reason above.
I seem to recall another thread that talked about the New 52 doing precisely what it set out to do - bolster sales and renew interest - and deeming it a success on that front.
That was a few months in.
I know my overall opinion has shifted since then.
Still loving a few gems (WW, Flash, ASW, DK) and enjoying others (LSH, Earth-2, World's Finest), but overall, I think the New DCU is a mess, and I believe sales have slumped.
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
The point of mentioning the sales figures is that is the only real gauge of how successful a book is or isn't. If it can't sustain itself in the market, then it really hasn't captured the interest of its intended audience. Or else that audience isn't there in any significant number. You can argue that a book is creatively successful, but if it winds up getting cancelled then it doesn't matter -- it's still gone without making much of an impact. Apart from the initial interest over the relaunch, DC really hasn't caught the interest of most fans outside of a few titles.
Is that necessarily true? I seem to recall another thread that talked about the New 52 doing precisely what it set out to do - bolster sales and renew interest - and deeming it a success on that front. Granted, it didn't do that with Demon Knights, but going to back to the original statement, I still feel they're doing more right than wrong with the reboot.
It only bolstered sales and interest for the first few months, and while it brought in some new readers, it lost a lot of the older readers. Sales have dropped dramatically throughout the line, with only a handful still up in the higher tiers. Consider how many titles from the original 52 have been axed, and that a few of the replacement titles are now also gone. That's hardly a grand success. At best, it's been a very short-term success.
So I wonder if a similar fate will befall the Marvel NOW titles?
Also, a quick answer to the "Off-topic" question - There's an "Element Girl" in Aquaman right now, but she's only in a couple panels. Didn't read Flashpoint so I don't know if that's the same girl we're talkinga bout.
The New 52 bolstered sales and renewed interest initially As for DC doing "more right than wrong". I respectfully disagree, basically for the reason above.
And, again, I'm not speaking in terms of dollars or market shares - not that that's an invalid argument. In my book, they got me back buying their funnybooks again, and I've found more to enjoy than disdain in doing so.
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
The point of mentioning the sales figures is that is the only real gauge of how successful a book is or isn't. If it can't sustain itself in the market, then it really hasn't captured the interest of its intended audience. Or else that audience isn't there in any significant number. You can argue that a book is creatively successful, but if it winds up getting cancelled then it doesn't matter -- it's still gone without making much of an impact. Apart from the initial interest over the relaunch, DC really hasn't caught the interest of most fans outside of a few titles.
Is that necessarily true? I seem to recall another thread that talked about the New 52 doing precisely what it set out to do - bolster sales and renew interest - and deeming it a success on that front. Granted, it didn't do that with Demon Knights, but going to back to the original statement, I still feel they're doing more right than wrong with the reboot.
It only bolstered sales and interest for the first few months, and while it brought in some new readers, it lost a lot of the older readers. Sales have dropped dramatically throughout the line, with only a handful still up in the higher tiers. Consider how many titles from the original 52 have been axed, and that a few of the replacement titles are now also gone. That's hardly a grand success. At best, it's been a very short-term success.
I haven't heard- and this may have been reported and I missed it, so I am legitimately asking- that the numbers have dropped back down to pre-New52 levels. Certainly the numbers have dropped from their initial spike. But have anyone that analyzes the numbers shown that overall DC market share in the direct market is now the same or worse than it was before New52? Has that been reported somewhere?
(And, of course, this is all with the caveat that none of the reporters/number crunchers get to see what the digital numbers are. But a point could be made one way or the other by looking at the direct market numbers.)
As for there being the letters "WTF" on the covers, I don't think it is harmful (and is certainly less troubling, in my opinion, for a kid to see on a cover than some very violent covers that can easily be found). . . I just think it is lame. Lame in that 'some grown-ups in the marketing department are trying to talk like the kids these days' way that tends to always be embarassing and transparent. It is an attempt at cool that ends up just seeming (at least from this distance-- fair point that the content of the books cannot yet be judged) like something attempting to be what cool looks like.
And, more importantly, it is another time- like the zero issue month-- when an across the board editorial gimmick interrupts with the various creative teams on these books are doing by demanding they all do the same thing. It is a reminder of how top-down and editorially driven DC seems to be. Perhaps these days more than ever.
I couldn't agree with this any more. I recall being a teenager & rolling my eyes when adults tried to talk slang. My mom still uses the phrases "don't go there" & "talk to the hand" despite the 90s calling her for its catchphrases back. Currently, she'll throw out an "OMG", "TMI", or even a "WTF." It's embarassing!
I'm curious how many people will truly be turned off to this stunt and skip the issues or drop titles completely.
M
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this whole effort is being run by the real world equivalent of Gil, the perpetually failing salesman from The Simpsons. "See, ol' Gil's hip. He's with it. And not at all desperately lonely or the object of his kids' scorn, no sir!"
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
The point of mentioning the sales figures is that is the only real gauge of how successful a book is or isn't. If it can't sustain itself in the market, then it really hasn't captured the interest of its intended audience. Or else that audience isn't there in any significant number. You can argue that a book is creatively successful, but if it winds up getting cancelled then it doesn't matter -- it's still gone without making much of an impact. Apart from the initial interest over the relaunch, DC really hasn't caught the interest of most fans outside of a few titles.
Is that necessarily true? I seem to recall another thread that talked about the New 52 doing precisely what it set out to do - bolster sales and renew interest - and deeming it a success on that front. Granted, it didn't do that with Demon Knights, but going to back to the original statement, I still feel they're doing more right than wrong with the reboot.
It only bolstered sales and interest for the first few months, and while it brought in some new readers, it lost a lot of the older readers. Sales have dropped dramatically throughout the line, with only a handful still up in the higher tiers. Consider how many titles from the original 52 have been axed, and that a few of the replacement titles are now also gone. That's hardly a grand success. At best, it's been a very short-term success.
I haven't heard- and this may have been reported and I missed it, so I am legitimately asking- that the numbers have dropped back down to pre-New52 levels. Certainly the numbers have dropped from their initial spike. But have anyone that analyzes the numbers shown that overall DC market share in the direct market is now the same or worse than it was before New52? Has that been reported somewhere?
(And, of course, this is all with the caveat that none of the reporters/number crunchers get to see what the digital numbers are. But a point could be made one way or the other by looking at the direct market numbers.)
Little old, sept 2012, but here I think DC claims their sales and the sales for the industry are still up.
And, to be clear, just because the overall numbers for DC are currently still above where they were pre-New 52 does not mean that you, as a reader, feel that it was all worth doing. Everyone gets to make their own decision about that. But it does seem that, quantitatively, it has been more than a short-term gain (at least from a quantitative, sales point of view).
So I wonder if a similar fate will befall the Marvel NOW titles?
Also, a quick answer to the "Off-topic" question - There's an "Element Girl" in Aquaman right now, but she's only in a couple panels. Didn't read Flashpoint so I don't know if that's the same girl we're talkinga bout.
Thanks. I'm not reading that, but I could pick it up for her.
Diamond also reported that DC will not be including "WTF" branding on the front or inside covers of their April shipping titles. "WTF" is DC's April New 52-wide marketing event in which every gatefold-covered title that month has been purported to "leave readers in a state of shock." The branding caused some consternation among reader and bloggers over the crude standard meaning of the acronym.
I don't see why WTF is such a big deal. I a can however see people getting bent out of shape over it. People have become to freaking soft and do P.C. It sickens me at times.
According again to a retailer in attendance, co-publisher Dan DiDio said that the "WTF" branding would not be used "because we don't need it." The retailer tells Newsarama that DiDio went on to say that the books have attracted attention from the marketplace already, and that retailers and readers are now aware of the significance of the gatefold covers.
So now what just a gol'darn minute...first off DC gets media attention by making Starfire into some sex-starved hussy for one issue and it's all over the interwebs...then they put up some book with Wonder Woman and Superman playing tonsil-hockey and it's all over the interwebs...and now he's got books that were gonna have a dirty word on them but then he says no they aren't after it's all over the interwebs...
It's almost like he was PLANNING for this stuff to happen... ;)
If this is all a gimmicky strategy by DC then its not going to be long before it backfires. This is a marketing equivalent of someone telling you something stupid and then saying "Only joking!"
Comments
I'm curious how many people will truly be turned off to this stunt and skip the issues or drop titles completely.
M
In the meantime, Wonder Woman's knocking it out of the park, Demon Knights continues to kick all kinds of ass despite a change in creative team, Aquaman is relevant again, All-Star Western is a book that demands to be read, Amethyst is back and her book is really good, Justice League Dark (despite sounding like a candy bar) is a solid read...heck, even the stumbles have had some merit. Resurrection Man was well done right up to the end (and we finally got closure to it), Blackhawks was awkward but God bless 'em for trying something. I've enjoyed the Teen Titans and Legion books as well, perhaps not to the level that I did earlier iterations, but that doesn't mean they're horrible. Even in the Bat camps you've got Batwoman, Batgirl, and Red Hood all delivering great stories. And while I'm biased toward Supergirl as a longtime fan...I *love* this version of her.
So yeah, the evidence is out there. We're just not willing to look for or at it. It's much easier to curse the darkness than light a candle, I suppose.
I found most of the Bat-books to be less than they could have been, or even what they once were, Batgirl being a possible exception, and Batwing being the more interesting.
Amethyst threw away the charm that made it appealing to its original audience (teenage girls) in order to become yet another D&D book (although I grant you that Christy Marx as writer still gives it enough magic to work). Aquaman and JLD are indeed winners, and I don't see much difference in All-Star Western from the previous Jonah Hex apart from setting. As for the rest, however highly you may regard them, they aren't all that impressive: they've either already withered and died on the vine, or are close to it. Most of the New52 are doing either mid-range or they're dying slow, agonizing deaths; that's not really a ringing endorsement of acceptance. Only the Justice League and the Batman books are doing exceptionally well, and I have major disagreements with the general fandom over the quality of the latter. Watch for Demon Knights to be among the next round of cancellations.
I think the difference is you're looking at this in terms of sales figures - which is valid - but it's not how I'm looking at it. I'm viewing it in terms of storytelling and making me want to read these books on a monthly basis again. About two to three years ago, I stopped buying single issues from DC altogether (I'd given up on Marvel about five years ago). There simply wasn't anything demanding my attention, and I had plenty of trades of older material to keep me happy. When I heard about the New 52 initiative, I vowed to give it a shot. Lo and behold, it worked. I'm reading their books again - monthly - and looking forward to the read.
In the interest of fairness, I'm giving Marvel the same opportunity. It will be interesting to see what title of theirs I'm still actively reading in about 15 months.
No, Dangerbird, sorry, I myself havn't heard anything about Plas.
And speaking of Plastic Man, I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
Huh. She was seen with The Justice League in the FCBD DC Comics - The New 52.
I know my overall opinion has shifted since then.
Still loving a few gems (WW, Flash, ASW, DK) and enjoying others (LSH, Earth-2, World's Finest), but overall, I think the New DCU is a mess, and I believe sales have slumped.
Also, a quick answer to the "Off-topic" question - There's an "Element Girl" in Aquaman right now, but she's only in a couple panels. Didn't read Flashpoint so I don't know if that's the same girl we're talkinga bout.
(And, of course, this is all with the caveat that none of the reporters/number crunchers get to see what the digital numbers are. But a point could be made one way or the other by looking at the direct market numbers.)
comics/dc-vps-talk-september-2012-new-52-sales.html
I a can however see people getting bent out of shape over it. People have become to freaking soft and do P.C. It sickens me at times.
It's almost like he was PLANNING for this stuff to happen... ;)