Episode 1420 Talkback: Spotlight on The X-Men in the Copper Age Part Two

Pants

Chris Eberle of Wild Pig Comics returns once more, bearing the torch of knowledge to light our way through the second half of the X-Men's Copper Age, perhaps the darkest period in Marvel mutant history. 'Inferno', 'The Fall of the Mutants,' and 'Mutant Massacre'. Longshot, Psylocke, and Jubilee. The Marauders, the Reavers, and the Freedom Force. Australia, Genosha, and the Siege Perilous. Death, disfigurement, and desperation. All of this and more awaited the X-Men in the late '80s, and now, it awaits YOU. Not for the faint-hearted! (1:44:58)

Listen here.

AdamChapman

Just as I finished episode 1419's focus on the Avengers in the Chromium Age Part One, I noticed that this episode had auto-downloaded. Very excited for this episode, starting it now!

rebis

It should be noted that Rick Leonardi did the pencils for X-Men 201. I think this was before his stint on Cloak & Dagger.

Thor_El

If memory serves, the Beast became human again as a result of Artie Maddick's father trying to find a cure for him. He used Hank as a test subject and the result turned him into his pre-furry form.

bralinator

What a great episode ~ for me anyways. During the copper-age period of the Uncanny X-Men, I had a subscription and never missed an issue. Some of the darkest, richest stories from the X-Men's history took place during this time period and Chris Eberle's mastery of this material is very much appreciated. These are the episodes that I look forward to the most.

Excellent production, pacing, and material as always. I also enjoy Pants' dovelike naivete in regards to this material along with his fact-filled insights (similar to a pop-up video comment here and there), reminds me of my own excitement when I first read these issues.

Speaking of Mark Silvestri, I remember admiring his artwork when he began on the X-Men and thinking that it was the quintessential super-hero comic art, unlike anyone else. It was angular instead of rounded and smooth like Terry Austin or John Byrne's (both of whom I really like). The characters' anatomy was also more svelte or slender and I very much preferred it over Romita Jr's thicker figures with minimal line-work. I was even convinced, albeit briefly, that Jim Lee was aping Silvestri's style when I first saw Lee's early X-Men work. Nonetheless, in my opinion, this was the beginning of a new era of great stories and art from my favorite band of outlaw mutants.

Thanks so much for another excellent Spotlight episode. I was pleasantly surprised to see it had auto-downloaded onto my iPhone last night after I was finished listening to the latest Avengers Spotlight. Quite a treat!

greyman24

Great episode! Wanted to mention that one of the two reporters that appear during the X-Men's "death" on TV is an actual radio personality--Neal Conan from NPR. He was the host of Talk of the Nation. Was a big fan of that show for awhile and didn't read these issues until Marvel packaged them on a DVD years later.

I was shocked to see an NPR personality cited in a comic book!

rebis

greyman24 said:

Great episode! Wanted to mention that one of the two reporters that appear during the X-Men's "death" on TV is an actual radio personality--Neal Conan from NPR. He was the host of Talk of the Nation. Was a big fan of that show for awhile and didn't read these issues until Marvel packaged them on a DVD years later.

I was shocked to see an NPR personality cited in a comic book!

Marvel has a great tradition of this and I think this is something that Claremont likes to throw into books.
Something I wanted to mention, and just didn't get around to after part 1 of X-Men in the Bronze Age, was the inclusion of David Brinkley and Chet Huntley in issue ... 98 or 99.

bralinator

Also, I really enjoyed the X-Factor run-down. I was hoping to hear some discussion on one of the dumbest premises in the history of X comics; that the 5 original X-Men would willingly contribute to the anti-mutant hysteria they've spent their whole careers fighting against. The premise began with a terrible retcon - Jean Grey never died and was never the Phoenix, which undermined an earlier classic, and continued with Cyclops abandoning his wife and infant son, then joining a new group with a ridiculous premise that was directly counter to the entire point of the X-Men series. You could tell it wasn't written by Chris Claremont (who obviously had other plans for Scott and Madelyn).

The only redeeming value of the book was Simonson's art and some great new characters (Archangel, Boom-Boom, etc) along with the Mutant Massacre storyline.

Mr_Cosmic

One of my favorite miniseries of this time was Mephisto Vs.

#1 vs the Fantastic Four
#2 vs X-Factor
#3 vs the X-Men
#4 vs the Avengers

Good stuff.

sandman

Mr_Cosmic said:

One of my favorite miniseries of this time was Mephisto Vs.

#1 vs the Fantastic Four
#2 vs X-Factor
#3 vs the X-Men
#4 vs the Avengers

Good stuff.

Really good stuff. Its one of my favorites as well.

sandman

bralinator said:

Also, I really enjoyed the X-Factor run-down. I was hoping to hear some discussion on one of the dumbest premises in the history of X comics; that the 5 original X-Men would willingly contribute to the anti-mutant hysteria they've spent their whole careers fighting against. The premise began with a terrible retcon - Jean Grey never died and was never the Phoenix, which undermined an earlier classic, and continued with Cyclops abandoning his wife and infant son, then joining a new group with a ridiculous premise that was directly counter to the entire point of the X-Men series. You could tell it wasn't written by Chris Claremont (who obviously had other plans for Scott and Madelyn).

The only redeeming value of the book was Simonson's art and some great new characters (Archangel, Boom-Boom, etc) along with the Mutant Massacre storyline.

I don't think that X-Factor contributed to the anti-mutant hysteria or went counter to the point of the X-Men. X-Factor pretended to be some sort of mutant incarceration crew, but really they were helping mutants. And I don't think that they added to the mutant hysteria either. By being out I think that they helped people feel safer and helped to calm the hysteria.

sandman

Psylocke did go through the Siege Perilous. Its how she was transformed from the British Betsy Braddock, sister of Captain Britain, into the Mandarin assassin version of Psylocke.

While I know the current Psylocke is very popular, I never liked the change. The current Psylocke is a fine character in her own right, but why change an existing character into her and take that former character away. Why not just create a new character to be this new Psylocke, or the new character with a new name?

Brack

sandman said:

Psylocke did go through the Siege Perilous. Its how she was transformed from the British Betsy Braddock, sister of Captain Britain, into the Mandarin assassin version of Psylocke.

While I know the current Psylocke is very popular, I never liked the change. The current Psylocke is a fine character in her own right, but why change an existing character into her and take that former character away. Why not just create a new character to be this new Psylocke, or the new character with a new name?

Because the way Claremont told his story it managed to tick his boxes for his body transformation fetish, his ninja fetish, his mind control fetish AND his Asian fetish.

greyman24

bralinator said:

Also, I really enjoyed the X-Factor run-down. I was hoping to hear some discussion on one of the dumbest premises in the history of X comics; that the 5 original X-Men would willingly contribute to the anti-mutant hysteria they've spent their whole careers fighting against. The premise began with a terrible retcon - Jean Grey never died and was never the Phoenix, which undermined an earlier classic, and continued with Cyclops abandoning his wife and infant son, then joining a new group with a ridiculous premise that was directly counter to the entire point of the X-Men series. You could tell it wasn't written by Chris Claremont (who obviously had other plans for Scott and Madelyn).

The only redeeming value of the book was Simonson's art and some great new characters (Archangel, Boom-Boom, etc) along with the Mutant Massacre storyline.

Wasn't this concept repeated by Cyclops in a recent storyline? I read a couple of references to Cyke pretending to be a mutant hunter, but secretly recruiting those mutants in my sporadic reading of the many recent X-titles, and I was curious as to why no one in the books seemed to make the connection.

bralinator

sandman said:

I don't think that X-Factor contributed to the anti-mutant hysteria or went counter to the point of the X-Men. X-Factor pretended to be some sort of mutant incarceration crew, but really they were helping mutants. And I don't think that they added to the mutant hysteria either. By being out I think that they helped people feel safer and helped to calm the hysteria.

I'm not trying to quibble, but a firm argument could be made that when Cameron Hodge, who was a former college roommate with Warren Worthington (Angel), convinced Angel to set up X-Factor, he eventually took the opportunity to increase anti-mutant hysteria through X-Factor's anti-mutant advertisements.

Furthermore, in issue #6 (the one with Apocalypse on the cover), Cyclops is beginning to worry that the group's X-Factor ads are fueling mutant paranoia among humans. I remember this quite clearly making me scratch my head as to why Scott and the rest would even continue that method.

Most of this can be read in the first year run of the book, but just to be sure I wasn't confused back then, a quick check of the wiki page at Marvel confirms most of what posted, even the part of Scott abandoning his wife & baby: http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Factor_(Earth-616)

Then from Wikipedia comes this gem: "The team would also go into action in costume, posing as mutant outlaws known as the "X-Terminators." Eventually, the team decided that the "mutant hunter" ruse did more harm than good by inflaming hatred. Not only was the concept rejected, but it was blamed on X-Factor's original business manager, Cameron Hodge, who was revealed as a mutant-hating mastermind." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Factor_(comics)

i_am_scifi

Further information on The Owl nearly being the man behind the curtain in X-Factor instead of Apocalypse can be found in my favorite source of "What If...?" and "what could have been," Comic Book Urban Legends Revealed #42:

You see, in issue #6, Louise Simonson took over the writing chores on X-Factor, and she preferred to have the mystery villain be a NEW villain to add to the mutant mythos, so Layton, on the way out, was asked to have it changed, and he, being a sporting soul, did so.

Imagine The Age of Owl!!! That would have been awesome!!

bralinator

Haha! I don't know about awesome, but I would like to have read it :)

gothamkid

Thor_El said:

If memory serves, the Beast became human again as a result of Artie Maddick's father trying to find a cure for him. He used Hank as a test subject and the result turned him into his pre-furry form.

Correct, Dr. Maddick's treatment returned Hank to his original state, then a disease from Pestilence of the Four Horseman made him increase his strength whenever he pushed it at the cost of his intelligence devolving, then he intercepted a kiss from Infectia meant for Bobby which counteracted both Dr. Maddick's treatment AND the disease from Pestilence returning him to the blue, furry Beast.

gothamkid

bralinator said:

sandman said:

I don't think that X-Factor contributed to the anti-mutant hysteria or went counter to the point of the X-Men. X-Factor pretended to be some sort of mutant incarceration crew, but really they were helping mutants. And I don't think that they added to the mutant hysteria either. By being out I think that they helped people feel safer and helped to calm the hysteria.

I'm not trying to quibble, but a firm argument could be made that when Cameron Hodge, who was a former college roommate with Warren Worthington (Angel), convinced Angel to set up X-Factor, he eventually took the opportunity to increase anti-mutant hysteria through X-Factor's anti-mutant advertisements.

Furthermore, in issue #6 (the one with Apocalypse on the cover), Cyclops is beginning to worry that the group's X-Factor ads are fueling mutant paranoia among humans. I remember this quite clearly making me scratch my head as to why Scott and the rest would even continue that method.

Most of this can be read in the first year run of the book, but just to be sure I wasn't confused back then, a quick check of the wiki page at Marvel confirms most of what posted, even the part of Scott abandoning his wife & baby: http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Factor_(Earth-616)

Then from Wikipedia comes this gem: "The team would also go into action in costume, posing as mutant outlaws known as the "X-Terminators." Eventually, the team decided that the "mutant hunter" ruse did more harm than good by inflaming hatred. Not only was the concept rejected, but it was blamed on X-Factor's original business manager, Cameron Hodge, who was revealed as a mutant-hating mastermind." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Factor_(comics)

As part of his vendetta against Warren (initially Cameron Hodge didn't hate mutants so much as hate Warren--the rub with the Right was that Hodge was embezzling from Worthington industires to pay for it--stealing his money to actively act against him), Hodge also had medical power of attorney over Warren and authorized the amputation of his wings.

gothamkid

sandman said:

Psylocke did go through the Siege Perilous. Its how she was transformed from the British Betsy Braddock, sister of Captain Britain, into the Mandarin assassin version of Psylocke.

I think this happened around Uncanny X-Men #255, so the Chromium Age will probably pick-up with this story-line (as it is the denoument to the Zaladane story and the Reavers attack that start in #251.

gothamkid

I almost feel like there needs to be a 1-2 episode spotlight to properly go through X-Factor and New Mutants during this period. Actually, I'd like to make something of a Spotlight request. I'd like you guys to revisit some of the early spotlights you rushed through when getting used to the format. I think you guys did very well with Aquaman and Hawkman in a one episode spotlight, but I feel like Fantastic Four, Flash, Green Lantern, Justice League, Thor, etc. all deserve multi-parters.

On Uncanny X-Men:
A lot was mentioned about the X-Men debating whether they should kill after the Mutant Massacre, but during it, Wolverine guts Scramble and after he witnesses him cut-down Kurt, Colossus breaks Riptide's neck.

On X-Factor
- During Mutant Massacre the team picks up Leech, Cyclops "kills" Prism, Thor kills Blockbuster and saves the Angel who suffers greivous damage to his wings from Harpoon.
- Fall of the Mutants is where the Four Horsemen first attack, Angel becomes Archangel after Apocalypse "saves" him from his suicide attempt, and the Beast gets the disease that increases strength while lowering his intellect.

On New Mutants
- During this period, Karma was taken over by the Shadow King.
- The New Mutants have a space adventure and interact with Prof. X, the Starjammers, and Binary (nee Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel)
- The New Mutant thread of Inferno was that Illyana was tricked into completely giving in to the 'Darkchylde' and cast the spell which Nastirh and Sym subverted allowing the demon invasion to take place. She later ended it by sacrificing herself, which resulted in her being reverted to the 7 year-old girl who first fell into Limbo.

On Power Pack
- Power Pack's ties to X-men and the mutant-verse go as far back as their first-year. When they destroy their dad's device, they our caught by his boss, Douglas Carmody, who recognizes them and becomes obsessed with revenge on the "mutant" Power kids. They fist crossed-over with Uncanny in #195 when the Morlocks kidnap them to replace a Morlock's dead children, and in the Lady Deathstrike issue that Chris Eberle talks about in this episode, its Katie Power who stumbles across a dying Wolverine and buys him the time he needs to heal and take the fight back to Lady Deathstrike. Because of their relationship (Walt and Lousie Simonson) Power Pack tied in to a lot of the more popular comics of the day including X-Factor and Walt's Thor run.

Corwin

Loving this episode!!! I can't express how much I love this coverage.

Magneto did take over Genosha but then it was destroyed by Cassandra Nova during Morrison's run.

Corwin

Zeb Wells will also bring back the Inferno babies as teens in New Mutants (2009) #15-19 Fall of New Mutants and #20-21 Rise of the New Mutants. Great stuff with Leonard Kirk on art.

LibraryBoy

I wasn't reading much of what was going on in Uncanny at this point (though this is now the point I've read up to in the Essentials and I love it), but I was a big fan of Excalibur for the first 2 years or so of its run. Kitty and Nightcrawler were two of my favorite X-characters, I was fascinated by some of Captain Britain's decidedly non-heroic characteristics (a novelty to me at the time), and the artwork by Alan Davis was amazing.

That first year was probably the best (the Warwolves, the Crazy Gang, the Inferno crossover, and the best Juggernaut fight that doesn't involve Spider-Man), and the Alan Davis artwork was probably the best I had ever seen to that point (and he's still a favorite), but I was soon done in by Claremont's propensity for padding out plot points and entire storylines well past their sell-by points. IIRC, it took FOREVER for Widget to even meet up with the team, much less kick off their pan-dimensional adventures. And that storyline, The Cross-Time Caper, just went on and on and on, lasting much longer than my interest in it did (I'd learn later on, of course, that such dimension hopping was a full-on trope of Captain Britain stories, but at that point, this book, a two-parter in Captain America, and those Marvel Team-Up issues were the only CB stories I had ever read). The whole Courtney Ross/Saturnyne swap seemed to go on forever, too. It was Davis that was keeping me on the book by the end, and when he left, so did I.

CageNarleigh

I know this is the POINT of these episodes...

But in this episode you mentioned Uncanny X-men #350. That is one of the only X-Men comics I OWN (let alone READ). I got it because I LOVE the holofoil cover and I'm a HUGE fan of Gambit and I had read online this was a huge issue for Gambit. But I NEVER knew what the background information was for his comic. When you guys get to it (and I again know this is the point of these episodes) could you supply this Gambit fan with some indepth backstory for this issue?

Not a big Marvel guy, but I LOVE listening to these episodes.

Corwin

CageNarleigh said:

I know this is the POINT of these episodes...

But in this episode you mentioned Uncanny X-men #350. That is one of the only X-Men comics I OWN (let alone READ). I got it because I LOVE the holofoil cover and I'm a HUGE fan of Gambit and I had read online this was a huge issue for Gambit. But I NEVER knew what the background information was for his comic. When you guys get to it (and I again know this is the point of these episodes) could you supply this Gambit fan with some indepth backstory for this issue?

Not a big Marvel guy, but I LOVE listening to these episodes.

It's pretty much what they said in the Episode. The Marauders went into the Morlock tunnels and slaughtered the Morlocks, women, children and all.

LibraryBoy

Have to second the love on those two X-Men/Asgard stories Chris mentioned at the end, the X-Men &. Alpha Flight mini-series and the X-Men Annual/New Mutants Special crossover. Fun stories that throw the characters into unfamiliar (to them) settings where they still manage to convincingly flourish, and the artwork on both is amazing - Paul Smith (who belongs on a list of The Great X-Men Artists but doesn't often come up in the conversations, sadly) on the mini-series and Art Adams on those annuals. I've read these in the course of reading the Essentials, and I have the singles for those two annuals, but one of these days I need to pick up that collection that reprints all of these in color. Great reading.

fredzilla

Speaking of quite possibly the darkest X-Men arc... Here's a one-day digital sale on X-Men's "Inferno" and "X-tinction Agenda" events.

Webhead

bralinator said:

Then from Wikipedia comes this gem: "The team would also go into action in costume, posing as mutant outlaws known as the "X-Terminators." Eventually, the team decided that the "mutant hunter" ruse did more harm than good by inflaming hatred. Not only was the concept rejected, but it was blamed on X-Factor's original business manager, Cameron Hodge, who was revealed as a mutant-hating mastermind." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Factor_(comics)

Great Episode guys

I have a question for group especially for the CGS guys since they have obviously done a ton of research on the X-Men and X-Factor.

When X-Factor first came out I was working in a comic shop and Marvel released a promotion video that was a live action commercial of the X-Factor print ad in the comic.

I've been trying for years to find a copy but nobody knows anything about this video. I've checked at conventions and spoke with numerous of dealers and searched the web but I cannot find any mention of this video. It is getting to the point that I'm questioning my memory.

Has anybody ever heard about his video?

shroud68

I wrapped up my X-Men after this era. The only writing worse than Chris Claremont's X-Men at the end of this era is anybody elses. When other writers took over X-Men moved from complicated to incomprehensible. The next few podcasts I am a blank slate.

bralinator

Webhead said:

When X-Factor first came out I was working in a comic shop and Marvel released a promotion video that was a live action commercial of the X-Factor print ad in the comic.

I've been trying for years to find a copy but nobody knows anything about this video. I've checked at conventions and spoke with numerous of dealers and searched the web but I cannot find any mention of this video. It is getting to the point that I'm questioning my memory.
Has anybody ever heard about his video?

Never heard of it, but would love to see it also.