Excellent episode guys. This is also the era that I started getting the X-Men (starting with 227) so this brought back a lot of memories. Since you weren't 100% sure exactly when each X-Man left the team towards the end of this ear (246-250) here's how it went.
247- Rogue goes into the Siege Perilous in order to force the Master Mold in (which leads to the creation of Bastion later on).
248- Longshot leaves in order to find himself and Storm is "killed" fighting Nanny and Orphan Maker.
249 & 250- Havok, Dazzler, Colossus and Psylock go to rescue Lorna Dane from Zala Dane in the Savage Land. (Wolverine's solo series has started by this time and he is gone from most of these adventures.) At the end of 250 they are forcibly brought back by Gateway and we won't see what happens to them right away. At the beginning of 251 the only member left will be Wolverine when he returns from Madripore. I'm not counting Jubilee because none of the X-Men knew she was hiding out in their headquarters until she meets Wolverine in 251.
OMG! This is the X-Men Spotlight episode I’ve been waiting for and I just got it to download today. For some reason, it did not automatically download into my iPhone Podcast app like it’s supposed to. I’ll listen to it and post later. :)
Great episode. Always a good thing when Chris Eberle turns up.
One interesting thing to note: regarding Mr Sinister, apparently Claremont's original concept for the character was that he was the creation of a child - hence the stupid name.
Wow, great response on the forum to this episode! I read all or most of these issues, but don't remember them well. However, I was constantly being surprised by the moves that Claremont and other writers made. I must admit that Excalibur was a favorite of mine also. That Alan Davis art was awesome! /// I didn't notice if anybody answered this but the Genoshan population was obliterated by Professor X's sister's Sentinels during the Morrison-era, I think.
This was the era where I finally threw my hands up in surrender and walked away, cold turkey, from all of the X-Books. There were a number of reasons, but Inferno was the final straw that broke the camel's back. In spite of some good stories still cropping up, there were a number of things that had been bothering me about the X-books in general for some time, and they finally came to a head. First of all, the increasingly dark tone the books were taking (noted in your podcast) was becoming overbearing and pretty offputting; I wasn't enjoying it. Sure, an occasional dark story was fine, but this really felt unrelenting. Claremont was still pushing the 'dark persona' stories, as well as persisting in mixing in elements of a magical or supernatural nature, which, in my opinion, always struck a false note in his hands. There were also a lot of Claremont stereotypes that kept creeping into his writing, ranging from the Strong Female characters (which, of itself, wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it often felt like he was going out of his way to shoehorn one into his stories) to writing dialogue which generally had most nouns and pronouns chopped away.
The days of the X-Men being a small title that was generally ignored by the front office was over by this time and they were being expanded into a separate brand, if slowly at that time. They had already developed the New Mutants title, were doing a whole passel of mini-series, and expanded further with the X-Factor book. That created a new problem, in that plots and sub-plots were carried over and even passed from one title to another; if you wanted to follow them or see the picture in its entirety, you had to read all of the X-books.
I was becoming less enchanted with the art, for the most part. One of the few grievances I'd had with Bill Sienkiewicz on the New Mutants -- the only problem I had, actually -- was his depiction of the kids. The previous artists, Bob McLeod and Sal Buscema, had taken great pains to draw them as being kids, all of different distinctive ages and distinctive individual characteristics. Sienkiewicz, although he shook the book to its creative visual core, homogenized them, especially the girls who now all looked like nubile cheerleader pin-ups. Thankfully, Bret Blevins did his best to make them look like individuals again. But the same problem popped up in the X-Men when Marc Silvestri did the same thing, homogenizing the women into lingerie models. (I remember Rogue's first appearance, where she had a somewhat harsher, older appearance, looking as though she were modeled after actress/writer Fanny Flagg; now, she was only distinguishable by the streak in her hair.) And, again, it's not that Silvestri was a terrible artist -- it was just a thing that really bothered me.
But Inferno was what finally killed the series for me. I thought the story was terrible (another story with supernatural elements in it, a real weakness in Claremont's writing, IMO), and I really resented the crossovers, which were packaged to make you believe that you needed to collect them all in order to get the full story, when the majority of them were nothing more than 'red sky' stories at best. All of these things together at that point of time convinced me that the glory days of the book were long past and that Claremont was just treading water, recycling himself and only occasionally hitting something brilliant. And I just wasn't enjoying it anymore; in fact, it felt like a chore to read each issue. I dropped out and walked away, and, except for the occasional crossover and a brief flirtation with the new X-Men book in the early 90's, didn't touch another X-book until Grant Morrison's run. And I felt cleaner for it.
I never read Excalibur during its initial run, except for the origin Special, but, years later, a friend gave me the bulk of the series. It was okay, but it wasn't my cup of tea either, though it had some very nice Alan Davis art for awhile, and that was worthwhile.
This was the era where I finally threw my hands up in surrender and walked away, cold turkey, from all of the X-Books. There were a number of reasons, but Inferno was the final straw that broke the camel's back. In spite of some good stories still cropping up, there were a number of things that had been bothering me about the X-books in general for some time, and they finally came to a head. First of all, the increasingly dark tone the books were taking (noted in your podcast) was becoming overbearing and pretty offputting; I wasn't enjoying it. Sure, an occasional dark story was fine, but this really felt unrelenting. Claremont was still pushing the 'dark persona' stories, as well as persisting in mixing in elements of a magical or supernatural nature, which, in my opinion, always struck a false note in his hands. There were also a lot of Claremont stereotypes that kept creeping into his writing, ranging from the Strong Female characters (which, of itself, wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it often felt like he was going out of his way to shoehorn one into his stories) to writing dialogue which generally had most nouns and pronouns chopped away.
The days of the X-Men being a small title that was generally ignored by the front office was over by this time and they were being expanded into a separate brand, if slowly at that time. They had already developed the New Mutants title, were doing a whole passel of mini-series, and expanded further with the X-Factor book. That created a new problem, in that plots and sub-plots were carried over and even passed from one title to another; if you wanted to follow them or see the picture in its entirety, you had to read all of the X-books.
I was becoming less enchanted with the art, for the most part. One of the few grievances I'd had with Bill Sienkiewicz on the New Mutants -- the only problem I had, actually -- was his depiction of the kids. The previous artists, Bob McLeod and Sal Buscema, had taken great pains to draw them as being kids, all of different distinctive ages and distinctive individual characteristics. Sienkiewicz, although he shook the book to its creative visual core, homogenized them, especially the girls who now all looked like nubile cheerleader pin-ups. Thankfully, Bret Blevins did his best to make them look like individuals again. But the same problem popped up in the X-Men when Marc Silvestri did the same thing, homogenizing the women into lingerie models. (I remember Rogue's first appearance, where she had a somewhat harsher, older appearance, looking as though she were modeled after actress/writer Fanny Flagg; now, she was only distinguishable by the streak in her hair.) And, again, it's not that Silvestri was a terrible artist -- it was just a thing that really bothered me.
But Inferno was what finally killed the series for me. I thought the story was terrible (another story with supernatural elements in it, a real weakness in Claremont's writing, IMO), and I really resented the crossovers, which were packaged to make you believe that you needed to collect them all in order to get the full story, when the majority of them were nothing more than 'red sky' stories at best. All of these things together at that point of time convinced me that the glory days of the book were long past and that Claremont was just treading water, recycling himself and only occasionally hitting something brilliant. And I just wasn't enjoying it anymore; in fact, it felt like a chore to read each issue. I dropped out and walked away, and, except for the occasional crossover and a brief flirtation with the new X-Men book in the early 90's, didn't touch another X-book until Grant Morrison's run. And I felt cleaner for it.
I never read Excalibur during its initial run, except for the origin Special, but, years later, a friend gave me the bulk of the series. It was okay, but it wasn't my cup of tea either, though it had some very nice Alan Davis art for awhile, and that was worthwhile.
Yeah Inferno got me to stop reading the X-men. I was still buying it up until Uncanny 300. But the only X-title I bought and read was Excalibur.
As usual, another great X-Men Spotlight episode. These episodes have become some of my all time favorite Comic Geek Speak podcasts. Chris Eberle, I think you are such a great guest addition to the already Fantastic Foursome of Pants, Adam, Shane, and Jamie D.
This is the spotlight I’ve been waiting for. The 80s, between Wolfman/Perez’ New Teen Titans and Claremont’s post-Byrne (for the record, loved Byrne’s X-Men work)/pre-New X-Men period, was like a personal golden age of comics for me. I knew when my favorite books were being shipped and I would wake up with a smile on my face anticipating the trip to the comic store to pull my subscription. Remember, this was before the Internet and social media; before the spoiler age we’re in now. Granted, you had the occasional tidbit here and there from comic store/convention word of mouth and various comic periodicals but for the most part, you didn’t know jack until you read the issue and shocks were frequent.
I remember like it was yesterday picking up the first part of the Mutant Massacre and upon paying, asking my friends who worked at the comic shop if I could read it right there and then. Word had it that all kinds of dark stuff were going down in the story from jump and I couldn’t wait to get home to read it. Man, they weren’t kidding.
I LOVED Marc Silvestri’s work on the 80s X-Men. I couldn’t get enough of it and to this day I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Australia team and stories. To this day, when I see any iteration of the X-Men, just for the hell of it, I tend to mentally pick out the Australia members. You had the Claremont/Cockrum’s Storm, Wolverine, and Colossus, Claremont post-Byrne character Rogue, first generation representative Havok, and newbies Psylocke, Longshot, and the long overdue addition of Dazzler. I would’ve preferred if that team had lasted longer but I’m very appreciative of the great stories we did get. My only regret is that I really believe, to this day, that the whole invisible to everything but the naked eye thing these particular X-Men had should’ve stayed with them. It would be that special unique thing that made this particular great line-up stand out from all other X-Men and could’ve played well in so much of the future stories.
Chris, I have a question for you? You stated you were in your teens at the time of this Copper Age and I was in my 20s. I honestly never thought of how dark this era was until you mentioned it. Granted, now that I think about it, it was some dark stuff but at the time, I was just so into the stories and didn’t even think about it. Plus, the X-Men always seemed for the most part, dark and more serious than most comics. Did you realize at the time upon the original reading of these issues how dark these stories were?
Again guys, thank you so much for another episode that brings back some very fond and personal comic geek memories. Between DC’s unfortunate reboot and too many damn X-books, my comic reading of current stuff has lessened considerably. I greatly appreciate any opportunity to walk down comic geek memory lane.
Chris, I have a question for you? You stated you were in your teens at the time of this Copper Age and I was in my 20s. I honestly never thought of how dark this era was until you mentioned it. Granted, now that I think about it, it was some dark stuff but at the time, I was just so into the stories and didn’t even think about it. Plus, the X-Men always seemed for the most part, dark and more serious than most comics. Did you realize at the time upon the original reading of these issues how dark these stories were?
Speaking entirely for myself here, I was considerably older and I knew at the time that the stories were steadily getting darker. There was a noticeable difference from the earlier stories which had heavy themes but still managed to convey some hope. The newer stories were getting angsty and even a bit depressing, with the sense that things were just only going to get worse no matter what the team did. That was one of the reasons why I dropped the series at that point. (Interestingly, I was having the same problem with New Teen Titans around the same time, a few years into their run.)
Comments
247- Rogue goes into the Siege Perilous in order to force the Master Mold in (which leads to the creation of Bastion later on).
248- Longshot leaves in order to find himself and Storm is "killed" fighting Nanny and Orphan Maker.
249 & 250- Havok, Dazzler, Colossus and Psylock go to rescue Lorna Dane from Zala Dane in the Savage Land. (Wolverine's solo series has started by this time and he is gone from most of these adventures.) At the end of 250 they are forcibly brought back by Gateway and we won't see what happens to them right away. At the beginning of 251 the only member left will be Wolverine when he returns from Madripore. I'm not counting Jubilee because none of the X-Men knew she was hiding out in their headquarters until she meets Wolverine in 251.
One interesting thing to note: regarding Mr Sinister, apparently Claremont's original concept for the character was that he was the creation of a child - hence the stupid name.
More here:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/11/23/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-78/
The days of the X-Men being a small title that was generally ignored by the front office was over by this time and they were being expanded into a separate brand, if slowly at that time. They had already developed the New Mutants title, were doing a whole passel of mini-series, and expanded further with the X-Factor book. That created a new problem, in that plots and sub-plots were carried over and even passed from one title to another; if you wanted to follow them or see the picture in its entirety, you had to read all of the X-books.
I was becoming less enchanted with the art, for the most part. One of the few grievances I'd had with Bill Sienkiewicz on the New Mutants -- the only problem I had, actually -- was his depiction of the kids. The previous artists, Bob McLeod and Sal Buscema, had taken great pains to draw them as being kids, all of different distinctive ages and distinctive individual characteristics. Sienkiewicz, although he shook the book to its creative visual core, homogenized them, especially the girls who now all looked like nubile cheerleader pin-ups. Thankfully, Bret Blevins did his best to make them look like individuals again. But the same problem popped up in the X-Men when Marc Silvestri did the same thing, homogenizing the women into lingerie models. (I remember Rogue's first appearance, where she had a somewhat harsher, older appearance, looking as though she were modeled after actress/writer Fanny Flagg; now, she was only distinguishable by the streak in her hair.) And, again, it's not that Silvestri was a terrible artist -- it was just a thing that really bothered me.
But Inferno was what finally killed the series for me. I thought the story was terrible (another story with supernatural elements in it, a real weakness in Claremont's writing, IMO), and I really resented the crossovers, which were packaged to make you believe that you needed to collect them all in order to get the full story, when the majority of them were nothing more than 'red sky' stories at best. All of these things together at that point of time convinced me that the glory days of the book were long past and that Claremont was just treading water, recycling himself and only occasionally hitting something brilliant. And I just wasn't enjoying it anymore; in fact, it felt like a chore to read each issue. I dropped out and walked away, and, except for the occasional crossover and a brief flirtation with the new X-Men book in the early 90's, didn't touch another X-book until Grant Morrison's run. And I felt cleaner for it.
I never read Excalibur during its initial run, except for the origin Special, but, years later, a friend gave me the bulk of the series. It was okay, but it wasn't my cup of tea either, though it had some very nice Alan Davis art for awhile, and that was worthwhile.
This is the spotlight I’ve been waiting for. The 80s, between Wolfman/Perez’ New Teen Titans and Claremont’s post-Byrne (for the record, loved Byrne’s X-Men work)/pre-New X-Men period, was like a personal golden age of comics for me. I knew when my favorite books were being shipped and I would wake up with a smile on my face anticipating the trip to the comic store to pull my subscription. Remember, this was before the Internet and social media; before the spoiler age we’re in now. Granted, you had the occasional tidbit here and there from comic store/convention word of mouth and various comic periodicals but for the most part, you didn’t know jack until you read the issue and shocks were frequent.
I remember like it was yesterday picking up the first part of the Mutant Massacre and upon paying, asking my friends who worked at the comic shop if I could read it right there and then. Word had it that all kinds of dark stuff were going down in the story from jump and I couldn’t wait to get home to read it. Man, they weren’t kidding.
I LOVED Marc Silvestri’s work on the 80s X-Men. I couldn’t get enough of it and to this day I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Australia team and stories. To this day, when I see any iteration of the X-Men, just for the hell of it, I tend to mentally pick out the Australia members. You had the Claremont/Cockrum’s Storm, Wolverine, and Colossus, Claremont post-Byrne character Rogue, first generation representative Havok, and newbies Psylocke, Longshot, and the long overdue addition of Dazzler. I would’ve preferred if that team had lasted longer but I’m very appreciative of the great stories we did get. My only regret is that I really believe, to this day, that the whole invisible to everything but the naked eye thing these particular X-Men had should’ve stayed with them. It would be that special unique thing that made this particular great line-up stand out from all other X-Men and could’ve played well in so much of the future stories.
Chris, I have a question for you? You stated you were in your teens at the time of this Copper Age and I was in my 20s. I honestly never thought of how dark this era was until you mentioned it. Granted, now that I think about it, it was some dark stuff but at the time, I was just so into the stories and didn’t even think about it. Plus, the X-Men always seemed for the most part, dark and more serious than most comics. Did you realize at the time upon the original reading of these issues how dark these stories were?
Again guys, thank you so much for another episode that brings back some very fond and personal comic geek memories. Between DC’s unfortunate reboot and too many damn X-books, my comic reading of current stuff has lessened considerably. I greatly appreciate any opportunity to walk down comic geek memory lane.