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Bond

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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    shroud68 said:


    To each his own but to call Spy Who Loved Me unwatchable and Diamonds Are Forever fantastic is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. Where is the Diagree button when it is really important?

    Diamonds are Forever is one of the worst Bond movies, easily a bottom 5. Connery was too old and too bored for the role and the plot was hackeneyed to say the least. TSWLM was Moore's best outing, and while I'm not a huge fan of his era I think For Your Eyes Only is underrated, both are better than Diamonds. While we are at it I might as well say that I love Moonraker, Man with the Golden Gun and View to a Kill because they are all so ridiculous. Like loving Adam West Batman. Live and Let Die is on my bottom 5 list, as is Octopussy, which is on there for being completely unmemorable. I've seen it 2-3 times and the only scene I remember is the saw-blade yoyo.
    Barbara Bach's beautiful assets alone are worth a viewing of The Spy Who Loved Me. For Your Eyes Only lost me when the Bond girl was obviously not swimming underwater. Apparently the actress was afraid of it or couldn't swim. I forget.

    M
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457
    Matt said:

    shroud68 said:


    To each his own but to call Spy Who Loved Me unwatchable and Diamonds Are Forever fantastic is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. Where is the Diagree button when it is really important?

    Diamonds are Forever is one of the worst Bond movies, easily a bottom 5. Connery was too old and too bored for the role and the plot was hackeneyed to say the least. TSWLM was Moore's best outing, and while I'm not a huge fan of his era I think For Your Eyes Only is underrated, both are better than Diamonds. While we are at it I might as well say that I love Moonraker, Man with the Golden Gun and View to a Kill because they are all so ridiculous. Like loving Adam West Batman. Live and Let Die is on my bottom 5 list, as is Octopussy, which is on there for being completely unmemorable. I've seen it 2-3 times and the only scene I remember is the saw-blade yoyo.
    Barbara Bach's beautiful assets alone are worth a viewing of The Spy Who Loved Me. For Your Eyes Only lost me when the Bond girl was obviously not swimming underwater. Apparently the actress was afraid of it or couldn't swim. I forget.

    M
    I met Mrs. Starr in an elevator one night ( in a professional capacity, not Penthouse Forum way) and while it is a faux pas to engage the VIP in conversation I just had to tell her how much I loved her in Spy Who Loved Me. Her smile,though 25 years older, did not disappoint.
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    shroud68 said:


    Diamonds are Forever is one of the worst Bond movies, easily a bottom 5. Connery was too old and too bored for the role and the plot was hackeneyed to say the least. TSWLM was Moore's best outing, and while I'm not a huge fan of his era I think For Your Eyes Only is underrated, both are better than Diamonds. While we are at it I might as well say that I love Moonraker, Man with the Golden Gun and View to a Kill because they are all so ridiculous. Like loving Adam West Batman. Live and Let Die is on my bottom 5 list, as is Octopussy, which is on there for being completely unmemorable. I've seen it 2-3 times and the only scene I remember is the saw-blade yoyo.

    Live and Let Die, where Grandpa Bond and his old man "Karate" beat up someone dressed like Bruce Lee in "Game of Death" was the first of the Bond movies where it became a chore to watch. I'd rather watch an Uwe Boll movie. Moonraker was one I didn't even make it through, and View to a Kill may be the worst movie I paid money to watch.

    Too bad they can't truly adapt the Blofeld Trilogy from the books...Fleming was a sexist writer of potboilers, but those three books were a hell of a fun ride.

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    playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377
    edited October 2013

    shroud68 said:


    Diamonds are Forever is one of the worst Bond movies, easily a bottom 5. Connery was too old and too bored for the role and the plot was hackeneyed to say the least. TSWLM was Moore's best outing, and while I'm not a huge fan of his era I think For Your Eyes Only is underrated, both are better than Diamonds. While we are at it I might as well say that I love Moonraker, Man with the Golden Gun and View to a Kill because they are all so ridiculous. Like loving Adam West Batman. Live and Let Die is on my bottom 5 list, as is Octopussy, which is on there for being completely unmemorable. I've seen it 2-3 times and the only scene I remember is the saw-blade yoyo.

    Live and Let Die, where Grandpa Bond and his old man "Karate" beat up someone dressed like Bruce Lee in "Game of Death" was the first of the Bond movies where it became a chore to watch. I'd rather watch an Uwe Boll movie. Moonraker was one I didn't even make it through, and View to a Kill may be the worst movie I paid money to watch.

    Too bad they can't truly adapt the Blofeld Trilogy from the books...Fleming was a sexist writer of potboilers, but those three books were a hell of a fun ride.

    I think you've got Live and Let Die confused with You Only Live Twice. LALD was Roger Moore's first and he fought a Voodoo Communist. Both are awful really (Yellow-face Sean Connery in You Only Live Twice HAD to be a series low point) but at least LALD had a great theme song and a gorgeous 21-year old Jane Seymour...

    And I will defend my love for the hilarity of A View to A Kill for the rest of my life. A 60 year old Roger Moore making sweet sweet love to Grace Jones is a whole other kind of low point.

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    kiwijasekiwijase Posts: 451
    Roger Moore was the Bond I grew up with, The Spy who loved me being the high point of his run, though I do have a soft spot for Octopussy and For your Eyes only. Sean Connery remains the seminal Bond, perhaps because he has the best track record. The first four films are very strong. OHMSS is a terrific film hampered by the the inexperience of it's leading man. I've seen George Lazenby in a couple of other films subsequent to the Bond film and he became much more assured as an actor. It would have been interesting to see him develop in the roll. Timothy Dalton was a top flight Bond who had the misfortune in appearing in two rather mediocre entries. Pierce Bronson is my personal favourite Bond. He had the physicality to convince as an action man, the acting chops to lend a little weight to the character, and the lightness of touch to bring out the comedy. I must say, I've never really bought Daniel Craig as Bond. He's too thugish in the roll and lacks humour.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    I always find it surprising that so many people dump on Tomorrow Never Dies because I really enjoyed that one. Cheesy, maybe, but it has it's moments and we get to see Michelle Yeoh kicking ass in an English-language film and that's always a good thing. GoldenEye was definitely Brosnan's best Bond movie (and one of my favorite Bonds), but TND was fun. Still not sure where I come down on Die Another Day, but The World is Not Enough was just godawful. I don't know if it's my least favorite Bond film, but it belongs in the conversation (Diamonds Are Forever is right down there, too, though I enjoy Mr. Wint and Mr. Kidd).

    As for OHMSS, traditionally that has always been my favorite Bond movie just because the stakes are so much different, and so much more personal than any other film in the series until Casino Royale (which was also fantastic, and probably it and Goldfinger are OHMSS's biggest contenders in my personal pantheon). As such, I think Lazenby is underrated in the role. He's the Bond who convincingly cried.

    As for Roger Moore, I'm not sure where I stand... I associate him with the cheesier aspects of the series, but for the first third or so of my life, he was Bond, and it was his movies that were always being shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie or whatever. And the man's damn charming, so he's convincing as the gentleman spy even if he isn't always as "James Bond" as he could be (I met a guy once who said Moore's biggest problem was that he never really stopped playing Simon Templar).
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457

    I always find it surprising that so many people dump on Tomorrow Never Dies because I really enjoyed that one. Cheesy, maybe, but it has it's moments and we get to see Michelle Yeoh kicking ass in an English-language film and that's always a good thing. GoldenEye was definitely Brosnan's best Bond movie (and one of my favorite Bonds), but TND was fun. Still not sure where I come down on Die Another Day, but The World is Not Enough was just godawful. I don't know if it's my least favorite Bond film, but it belongs in the conversation (Diamonds Are Forever is right down there, too, though I enjoy Mr. Wint and Mr. Kidd).

    As for OHMSS, traditionally that has always been my favorite Bond movie just because the stakes are so much different, and so much more personal than any other film in the series until Casino Royale (which was also fantastic, and probably it and Goldfinger are OHMSS's biggest contenders in my personal pantheon). As such, I think Lazenby is underrated in the role. He's the Bond who convincingly cried.

    As for Roger Moore, I'm not sure where I stand... I associate him with the cheesier aspects of the series, but for the first third or so of my life, he was Bond, and it was his movies that were always being shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie or whatever. And the man's damn charming, so he's convincing as the gentleman spy even if he isn't always as "James Bond" as he could be (I met a guy once who said Moore's biggest problem was that he never really stopped playing Simon Templar).

    I think Tomorrow Never Dies suffers because it is a let down from Goldeneye. Goldeneye embraced the old Bond like huge set designs and ridiculous Bond girl names but introduced to newer elements; a self aware Bond, smarter Bond girls, emotional involvement. Then Never Dies happens and it sucks. I dislike Pyrce's scenery chewing and Yeoh was poorly used. Maybe over analysis on my part but I like keeping this thread going!
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Faves: Spy Who Loved Me, Casino Royale, Goldeneye, Goldfinger, Dr. No. (primarily because of Honey Rider and that bikini), Man With the Golden Gun (often overlooked I think), The Living Daylights and my favorite - On Her Majesty's Secret Service.
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    John_SteedJohn_Steed Posts: 2,087
    Honey Rider: made in Switzerland 3:-O
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    PlaneisPlaneis Posts: 980

    I always find it surprising that so many people dump on Tomorrow Never Dies because I really enjoyed that one. Cheesy, maybe, but it has it's moments and we get to see Michelle Yeoh kicking ass in an English-language film and that's always a good thing. GoldenEye was definitely Brosnan's best Bond movie (and one of my favorite Bonds), but TND was fun. Still not sure where I come down on Die Another Day, but The World is Not Enough was just godawful. I don't know if it's my least favorite Bond film, but it belongs in the conversation (Diamonds Are Forever is right down there, too, though I enjoy Mr. Wint and Mr. Kidd).

    As for OHMSS, traditionally that has always been my favorite Bond movie just because the stakes are so much different, and so much more personal than any other film in the series until Casino Royale (which was also fantastic, and probably it and Goldfinger are OHMSS's biggest contenders in my personal pantheon). As such, I think Lazenby is underrated in the role. He's the Bond who convincingly cried.

    As for Roger Moore, I'm not sure where I stand... I associate him with the cheesier aspects of the series, but for the first third or so of my life, he was Bond, and it was his movies that were always being shown on the ABC Sunday Night Movie or whatever. And the man's damn charming, so he's convincing as the gentleman spy even if he isn't always as "James Bond" as he could be (I met a guy once who said Moore's biggest problem was that he never really stopped playing Simon Templar).

    I think TND suffered from being A) rushed into production and B) it brought back the over the top cheese factor way too quick after Goldeneye.

    But I like it too. Much better than say, Octopussy
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    TND was the first Bond I ever saw in the theater. I was just a little too young for the Dalton movies and I don't know how but I just missed out on Goldeneye when it came out. I had seen a bunch before that, but nothing beats seeing the barrel shot followed by the opening gambit for the first time in the theater. Its not one of my favorites by a long shot, but it will always hold a special place in my heart. The only Bond movie I've missed since then was TWINE, which was no loss there.
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457

    TND was the first Bond I ever saw in the theater. I was just a little too young for the Dalton movies and I don't know how but I just missed out on Goldeneye when it came out. I had seen a bunch before that, but nothing beats seeing the barrel shot followed by the opening gambit for the first time in the theater. Its not one of my favorites by a long shot, but it will always hold a special place in my heart. The only Bond movie I've missed since then was TWINE, which was no loss there.

    You say that about TWINE like Denise Richards wasn't believable as a nuclear physicist!

    M
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    Matt said:

    TND was the first Bond I ever saw in the theater. I was just a little too young for the Dalton movies and I don't know how but I just missed out on Goldeneye when it came out. I had seen a bunch before that, but nothing beats seeing the barrel shot followed by the opening gambit for the first time in the theater. Its not one of my favorites by a long shot, but it will always hold a special place in my heart. The only Bond movie I've missed since then was TWINE, which was no loss there.

    You say that about TWINE like Denise Richards wasn't believable as a nuclear physicist!

    M
    Christmas Jones and the Submarine of Doom.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    Having finally watched first three outings in their entirety in the past few weeks, I have to say that The Spy Who Loved Me is my favorite of his era by far (I had already seen Moonraker and Octopussy in years past; I still have For Your Eyes Only and A View to a Kill to watch). As far as the Moore formula goes, SWLM seems to be where they finally get it right, with the proper mix of the campiness that Moore seems fond of (or at least is good at), the gadgetry that was at its height in this era (the Lotus Esprit submarine is damn cool; I wish I could find the toy of it I had as a kid), and the sort of cold, cruel detachment that typifies "Bond on the job" in a way that can appeal to more modern fans.

    Also, Barabara Bach, ermagerd. :x

    As for the first two, I think I liked Live and Let Die, though it seemed like more of a collection of "what the hell just happened?" moments than a real story (also, Jane Seymour, ermagerd :x ), and it really loses me with the weird third act descent into Dukes of Hazzard territory. And although I thought Christopher Lee was pretty decent as the villain in The Man with the Golden Gun, it was really slow. Also, Bond should never have to drive an AMC Hornet!
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457

    Having finally watched first three outings in their entirety in the past few weeks, I have to say that The Spy Who Loved Me is my favorite of his era by far (I had already seen Moonraker and Octopussy in years past; I still have For Your Eyes Only and A View to a Kill to watch). As far as the Moore formula goes, SWLM seems to be where they finally get it right, with the proper mix of the campiness that Moore seems fond of (or at least is good at), the gadgetry that was at its height in this era (the Lotus Esprit submarine is damn cool; I wish I could find the toy of it I had as a kid), and the sort of cold, cruel detachment that typifies "Bond on the job" in a way that can appeal to more modern fans.

    Also, Barabara Bach, ermagerd. :x

    As for the first two, I think I liked Live and Let Die, though it seemed like more of a collection of "what the hell just happened?" moments than a real story (also, Jane Seymour, ermagerd :x ), and it really loses me with the weird third act descent into Dukes of Hazzard territory. And although I thought Christopher Lee was pretty decent as the villain in The Man with the Golden Gun, it was really slow. Also, Bond should never have to drive an AMC Hornet!

    A View To A Kill will not impress you. Tanya Roberts is no Barbara Bach.
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    shroud68 said:

    Having finally watched first three outings in their entirety in the past few weeks, I have to say that The Spy Who Loved Me is my favorite of his era by far (I had already seen Moonraker and Octopussy in years past; I still have For Your Eyes Only and A View to a Kill to watch). As far as the Moore formula goes, SWLM seems to be where they finally get it right, with the proper mix of the campiness that Moore seems fond of (or at least is good at), the gadgetry that was at its height in this era (the Lotus Esprit submarine is damn cool; I wish I could find the toy of it I had as a kid), and the sort of cold, cruel detachment that typifies "Bond on the job" in a way that can appeal to more modern fans.

    Also, Barabara Bach, ermagerd. :x

    As for the first two, I think I liked Live and Let Die, though it seemed like more of a collection of "what the hell just happened?" moments than a real story (also, Jane Seymour, ermagerd :x ), and it really loses me with the weird third act descent into Dukes of Hazzard territory. And although I thought Christopher Lee was pretty decent as the villain in The Man with the Golden Gun, it was really slow. Also, Bond should never have to drive an AMC Hornet!

    A View To A Kill will not impress you. Tanya Roberts is no Barbara Bach.
    And Moore looks every day of his age.

    When I watched it in my Bond re-watch, I kept referring to him as Grampa Bond.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803

    shroud68 said:

    Having finally watched first three outings in their entirety in the past few weeks, I have to say that The Spy Who Loved Me is my favorite of his era by far (I had already seen Moonraker and Octopussy in years past; I still have For Your Eyes Only and A View to a Kill to watch). As far as the Moore formula goes, SWLM seems to be where they finally get it right, with the proper mix of the campiness that Moore seems fond of (or at least is good at), the gadgetry that was at its height in this era (the Lotus Esprit submarine is damn cool; I wish I could find the toy of it I had as a kid), and the sort of cold, cruel detachment that typifies "Bond on the job" in a way that can appeal to more modern fans.

    Also, Barabara Bach, ermagerd. :x

    As for the first two, I think I liked Live and Let Die, though it seemed like more of a collection of "what the hell just happened?" moments than a real story (also, Jane Seymour, ermagerd :x ), and it really loses me with the weird third act descent into Dukes of Hazzard territory. And although I thought Christopher Lee was pretty decent as the villain in The Man with the Golden Gun, it was really slow. Also, Bond should never have to drive an AMC Hornet!

    A View To A Kill will not impress you. Tanya Roberts is no Barbara Bach.
    And Moore looks every day of his age.

    When I watched it in my Bond re-watch, I kept referring to him as Grampa Bond.
    I was surprised by how much he had aged between Live and Let Die and The Spy Who Loved Me!
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Live and Let Die - A good entry point for Moore as Bond. I liked it.
    Man with the Golden Gun - Good for the bad guys (Lee and Herve) and Leading Lady
    The Spy Who Loved Me - Best Moore-era Bond period.
    Moonraker - WTF?! (Painful to watch)
    For Your Eyes Only - A return to form...arguably Moore's last good one
    Octopussy - Good, but not great. Moore's showing his age.
    A View to a Kill - While I echo shroud68 that Tanya Roberts =/= Barbara Bach, TR was my crush as a lad, so I give it a pass, goofy though it is.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    Torchsong said:

    Live and Let Die - A good entry point for Moore as Bond. I liked it.
    Man with the Golden Gun - Good for the bad guys (Lee and Herve) and Leading Lady
    The Spy Who Loved Me - Best Moore-era Bond period.
    Moonraker - WTF?! (Painful to watch)
    For Your Eyes Only - A return to form...arguably Moore's last good one
    Octopussy - Good, but not great. Moore's showing his age.
    A View to a Kill - While I echo shroud68 that Tanya Roberts =/= Barbara Bach, TR was my crush as a lad, so I give it a pass, goofy though it is.

    Moonraker is goofy as hell, but the last time I saw it I was surprised how strangely watchable it was despite (because of?) that.

    I agree on Octopussy. Alright movie, but fairly by-the-numbers. I think it benefits from the fact that it's the one after Moonraker. :D WORST opening credits song of the entire series, though. Guh.

    I do dig the part where all the ladies are falling all over Q, though. Nice to see our Major Boothroyd get in on the action (or, you know, the action) once in a while. It seems to make him less cranky with 007.

    Still have For Your Eyes Only and A View to a Kill to watch. Looking forward to both, even if Bond looks close to retirement age in that last one.
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457
    Moore's era was so hit and miss and he stayed on far too long but the more I watch Daniel Craig the more I realize that I miss Moore.
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457
    I have noticed people will go back and say Connery was the best Bond despite never seeing one in the theater or even on TV as much. People will fawn over Daniel Craig and the excellent execution of Casino Royale & Skyfall.Even Brosnan has his devotees. But for whatever reason unless you are the age range that was able to see his really good ones (Spy & Eyes Only) in their original run, no teenager would ever see Octopussy & View and say "Hey that Moore guy plays a good Bond". He gets not enough love and history has not been kind to his era.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Moore was the Bond I grew up with and the first version of him I'd ever seen. I guess it's kind of like Batman or Dr. Who...everyone has "their" version of him and a good portion of the time it's the baby that brung you on board that clinches it.


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    kiwijasekiwijase Posts: 451
    shroud68 said:

    Moore's era was so hit and miss and he stayed on far too long but the more I watch Daniel Craig the more I realize that I miss Moore.

    Moore was funny. Craig isn't.
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    playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377
    edited February 2014
    shroud68 said:

    I have noticed people will go back and say Connery was the best Bond despite never seeing one in the theater or even on TV as much. People will fawn over Daniel Craig and the excellent execution of Casino Royale & Skyfall.Even Brosnan has his devotees. But for whatever reason unless you are the age range that was able to see his really good ones (Spy & Eyes Only) in their original run, no teenager would ever see Octopussy & View and say "Hey that Moore guy plays a good Bond". He gets not enough love and history has not been kind to his era.

    His era was played for laughs. Now it seems like a joke. It doesn't help that he stayed on two movies too long. I mean, 58? really? You add in missteps like Moonraker and Octopussy, its hard to look kindly on his time as Bond. But he is still more recognizable as Bond than Lanzenby or even Dalton. I also think he's more closely associated with the role than any other actor, as while Connery's Bond is iconic and unmatched, Connery career outside of Bond contained a number of memorable performances that he will also be remembered for. Actually, I think that Brosnan comparable to Moore (both had successful TV shows that prevented them from taking on Bond earlier, both had movies that were absurd to the point of unwatchable, and both have had their post bond career overshadowed by their double-o status) and his time as Bond will be looked at pretty much the same way by the first generation too young to have watched them in the theater.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    It's a shame Moore didn't end around For Your Eyes Only. He still would have a few weaker films in his catalog, but he'd have just as many good ones, as well. And he would end on a high note, as well as a grittier film that would have made for a nice transition into the Dalton films.

    Unfortunately, Connery making Never Say Never Again meant producers were reluctant to let Moore go, so he was back in for Octopussy. Seeing as how his main competition for the role at the time was James Brolin, I suppose things could have been worse.
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    shroud68shroud68 Posts: 457
    chrisw said:

    It's a shame Moore didn't end around For Your Eyes Only. He still would have a few weaker films in his catalog, but he'd have just as many good ones, as well. And he would end on a high note, as well as a grittier film that would have made for a nice transition into the Dalton films.

    Unfortunately, Connery making Never Say Never Again meant producers were reluctant to let Moore go, so he was back in for Octopussy. Seeing as how his main competition for the role at the time was James Brolin, I suppose things could have been worse.

    I rarely if ever watch extras on DVDs. I hate process but James Brolin's screen test for Octopussy is God awful. Makes Moore's performance Oscar worthy.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    What's interesting is that so many people say they like the Daniel Craig ones now because they're grittier and more violent, but those were the same things that turned a lot of people off during Dalton's two films. Times and tastes change, I suppose... makes me wonder how well he'd be accepted as Bond if 1987 Timothy Dalton could take the role today.

    Funny thing about Moore, though... even though a lot of his era is looked down upon in some circles, when I started talking to people about reading the books and rewatching the movies (or watching for the first time, in some cases), a lot of my friends started talking to me about how much they loved Roger Moore. Probably because he was Bond when we were kids and his movies seemed to be on TV (like on ABC or TBS) a lot more often than any of the others' were, but whatever the reason, he's their Bond.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    My biggest problem with the Dalton films is in how cheap they look. They were skimping on the budget and it shows. When I watched Licence to Kill a few years ago, I felt like I was watching a low-budget made-for-tv movie. It looked that cheap. Even many of the actors felt a cut below film star level. I know people fixated on the grittiness and lack of humor at the time, but I think that was because they were so used to Moore, and couldn't get a handle on why they disliked these new films so much. All the humor in the world couldn't salvage what were shitty films.

    I'm one of those who grew up with Moore as Bond. For a time, the Connery films were rarities, something of a big deal when ABC ran one of them - I have a childhood memory of a family party in which half the men snuck off to another room to watch From Russia With Love, because it had been ages since they'd seen it. But the Moore films felt like they were on all the time. It took me a while to let go and realize that for the most part, his run wasn't that great. But, for a long time, to me, Moore was Bond. And since the only Connery film that seemed to run with as much frequency as Moore's was Diamonds Are Forever, the low point of his run, Connery didn't look like a much better option at the time.
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    LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    chrisw said:

    My biggest problem with the Dalton films is in how cheap they look. They were skimping on the budget and it shows. When I watched Licence to Kill a few years ago, I felt like I was watching a low-budget made-for-tv movie. It looked that cheap. Even many of the actors felt a cut below film star level. I know people fixated on the grittiness and lack of humor at the time, but I think that was because they were so used to Moore, and couldn't get a handle on why they disliked these new films so much. All the humor in the world couldn't salvage what were shitty films.

    You know, I've never managed to make it all the way through License to Kill. I saw The Living Daylights in the theater and enjoyed it, but every time I sit down to watch LtK I get maybe 30 minutes in and then get bored!
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