I like Miller's take on the whole Batman/Joker rivalry at the end of Hunt the Dark Knight (Or DKR3 if you go by the full title).
That's how it ends, in my book. Batman pushed enough that he'll physically maim the Joker, but he will not let himself get pushed beyond the line.
"They'll kill you for this...and they'll never know that you never had the nerve."
Killing Joke I take literally. They're standing face to face in the bottom left, separated as Joker's lead away (headlight from car still active) to be arrested, and the last panel is the scene deserted as everyone has left. Gordon would have shot (or in this case ordered his men) to shoot Batman point blank if there were any other outcome.
So, after reading the Morrison explaination you didn't go back and read killing joke again and go,"oh yeah! How'd i miss that!?". actually there is another scene that makes the argument stronger i think. that moment in the jail when Bats and Joker are talking about the ultimate need for one to kill the other.
this is the thesis statement for the whole book, i think.
Nope. Probably if Moore would've said it I would've. I've never read any interview, synapsis, or anything to indicate Batman went out of character & no longer attempt to help Joker like he did earlier in the story.
I think more times then not, Morrison says & writes things more for the press then anything out.
If you can show me another point of reference then Morrison where the Bat-killer ending is noted as the actual ending, I'd consider it more valid. It would also fall off my Top Ten Batman stories.
Again, there's nothing to imply the last series of panels actually meant one killed the other. There is a pool of blood, but I don't recall seeing either with a blunt object, firearm, or something that'll puncture. There should be a weapon in hand or nearby or some sound effect. If "snap" or "crack" appeared, then I'd buy Batman snapped Joker's neck following that center panel.
I've always interpreted it as a self reflection based on Joker's advisement of their similarities.
Since I've never seen that hinted at or discussed until Morrison stated so, I can't be the only one who didn't read the final panels as Batman killing Joker.
Again, there's nothing to imply the last series of panels actually meant one killed the other. There is a pool of blood, but I don't recall seeing either with a blunt object, firearm, or something that'll puncture. There should be a weapon in hand or nearby or some sound effect. If "snap" or "crack" appeared, then I'd buy Batman snapped Joker's neck following that center panel.
I've always interpreted it as a self reflection based on Joker's advisement of their similarities.
Since I've never seen that hinted at or discussed until Morrison stated so, I can't be the only one who didn't read the final panels as Batman killing Joker.
M
Where's the pool of blood?
I see water on the pavement, and a little area of dirt and grass.
i think this is the original podcast where the Morrison discussion took place. although as i said i'm not a morrison fan and i've not actually listened to the podcast yet. i actually just thought that was how it ended. the punch line in my head was that,"oh yeah, there is no hope. one of us is not getting out of this alive". Think of it as the sort of thing the Comedian would find amusing. and then since it is hopeless and there is not hope for redemption might as well end it here.
It's open to interpretation. Probably not intentionally, but it is now. Personally I think the Morrison interpretation works better, storytelling wise and if you were to take this as a standalone work then, for me Batman absolutely kills the Joker at the end. But that's also the end of Batman. In a continuity sense he obviously did not. I like to think of it like quantum physics, both things happen until you observe one possible outcome, then only one event occurred. Personally, I'm not that big a Batman fan and prefer stand alone tales to the serialized everyday goings on of the Bat franchise. Its easy for me to read conflicting narratives because I don't need to reconcile them with years of past or future continuity.
It's open to interpretation. Probably not intentionally, but it is now. Personally I think the Morrison interpretation works better, storytelling wise and if you were to take this as a standalone work then, for me Batman absolutely kills the Joker at the end. But that's also the end of Batman. In a continuity sense he obviously did not. I like to think of it like quantum physics, both things happen until you observe one possible outcome, then only one event occurred. Personally, I'm not that big a Batman fan and prefer stand alone tales to the serialized everyday goings on of the Bat franchise. Its easy for me to read conflicting narratives because I don't need to reconcile them with years of past or future continuity.
1st panel on the bottom row. near the top by bats' boots.
I'm not sure what that is, doesn't especially look like blood to me.
okay. it did (and does) to me.
No blood in the script.
Just quibbling by the way, lack of blood does not mean no broken neck.
And ugly 80's coloring doesn't help, either.
Apparenly Brian Bolland was equally unimpressed with the coloring and when it was rereleased in 2008 colored it himself.
Actually the image that was shown here is just a bad scan. The red is way over-saturated. In my copy of the third printing, which came out just a few months after the original, there are yellows, oranges, and mauves in those panels, but no reds, except for the Joker’s lips.
And from a storytelling point of view, I think the original colors are better than Bolland’s recoloring. They reflect the mood and emotions of the scenes much more strongly than the more grounded palette Bolland used.
Possibly, but then it would be completely out of character. It'd go against everything he stood for. Killing Joker means he really is no better then those he fights against.
I've never thought Batman killed Joker in that final scene. I view Batman’s laughter as laughing at the futility of their struggle, because otherwise he would simply cry.
I've never thought Batman killed Joker in that final scene. I view Batman’s laughter as laughing at the futility of their struggle, because otherwise he would simply cry.
And Batman doesn’t cry unless a Robin dies. ;)
, , , Or he gets a letter from another Earth.
. . . Or another Robin dies.
. . . And that one time they played Marley and Me on the plane.
I've never thought Batman killed Joker in that final scene. I view Batman’s laughter as laughing at the futility of their struggle, because otherwise he would simply cry.
And Batman doesn’t cry unless a Robin dies. ;)
, , , Or he gets a letter from another Earth.
. . . Or another Robin dies.
. . . And that one time they played Marley and Me on the plane.
Possibly, but then it would be completely out of character. It'd go against everything he stood for. Killing Joker means he really is no better then those he fights against.
M
yup. Bats understands at that point that he too is in fact apeshit crazy, his arbitrary code makes no difference and he might as well end it here. it is oddly a moment of clarity.
Oh dear what arguement have I started haha. When I read killing joke I def didnt get thw impression his neck was snapped and like matt said wouldnt they habe puy in a crack or snap??? The copy I saw didnt look like blood thats why I never noticed anything. Also I tjought batman and joker dont want to kill each other as they live to fight each other?? Just finished death in family which I tjought was good I was really surprised to see superman in it haha is this a norm thing to happen
I never thought they killed one or the other either
I saw the "blood" as a shadow and in the second to last panel it's smaller because Joker is walking away and it's gone in the last panel because he's gone, completely alive but gone.
I think its some sort of shading or shadow butbein new to batman I dont feel like I got the right to say haha leave it to the people that resd/know batman stories
Comments
That's how it ends, in my book. Batman pushed enough that he'll physically maim the Joker, but he will not let himself get pushed beyond the line.
"They'll kill you for this...and they'll never know that you never had the nerve."
Killing Joke I take literally. They're standing face to face in the bottom left, separated as Joker's lead away (headlight from car still active) to be arrested, and the last panel is the scene deserted as everyone has left. Gordon would have shot (or in this case ordered his men) to shoot Batman point blank if there were any other outcome.
I think more times then not, Morrison says & writes things more for the press then anything out.
If you can show me another point of reference then Morrison where the Bat-killer ending is noted as the actual ending, I'd consider it more valid. It would also fall off my Top Ten Batman stories.
As of now, it's just the rambling a of one Joker.
M
I've always interpreted it as a self reflection based on Joker's advisement of their similarities.
Since I've never seen that hinted at or discussed until Morrison stated so, I can't be the only one who didn't read the final panels as Batman killing Joker.
M
I see water on the pavement, and a little area of dirt and grass.
http://smodcast.com/episodes/more-with-morrison/
Just quibbling by the way, lack of blood does not mean no broken neck.
And ugly 80's coloring doesn't help, either.
And from a storytelling point of view, I think the original colors are better than Bolland’s recoloring. They reflect the mood and emotions of the scenes much more strongly than the more grounded palette Bolland used.
M
And Batman doesn’t cry unless a Robin dies. ;)
. . . Or another Robin dies.
. . . And that one time they played Marley and Me on the plane.
;)
When I read killing joke I def didnt get thw impression his neck was snapped and like matt said wouldnt they habe puy in a crack or snap???
The copy I saw didnt look like blood thats why I never noticed anything.
Also I tjought batman and joker dont want to kill each other as they live to fight each other??
Just finished death in family which I tjought was good I was really surprised to see superman in it haha is this a norm thing to happen
I saw the "blood" as a shadow and in the second to last panel it's smaller because Joker is walking away and it's gone in the last panel because he's gone, completely alive but gone.