I get and agree bill finger hasn't "gotten his due" (In regards to batman and more). I also realize bob Kane was by all appearances an ego maniac, a jerk and to a degree a fraud. It's also seeming that bill finger didn't care about any if it. But is this honestly not at all still "warranted"? A little even? I'd agree it should be the character of batman more so than Kane himself, but yeesh I'm personally getting tired of this dinger praising Kane bashing bandwagon. Everyone knows the story. And there is no end to the number of far worse injustices throughout history.
I get and agree bill finger hasn't "gotten his due" (In regards to batman and more). I also realize bob Kane was by all appearances an ego maniac, a jerk and to a degree a fraud. It's also seeming that bill finger didn't care about any if it. But is this honestly not at all still "warranted"? A little even? I'd agree it should be the character of batman more so than Kane himself, but yeesh I'm personally getting tired of this dinger praising Kane bashing bandwagon. Everyone knows the story. And there is no end to the number of far worse injustices throughout history.
Not everyone knows the story. We know the story because we care about comics, but for the vast majority of people they don't even know who created Batman. If someone like that sees further validation of Bob Kane's sole authorship then they'll believe Bob Kane was the sole creator. I'll quote an article by Chris Sims for Comics Alliance:
“If I have to grit my teeth and give Kane even the slightest amount of credit, I will say that he was the one who wrote the word “BAT-MAN” down on a piece of paper and drew a character wearing a red suit with a domino mask, blonde hair and a pair of bat wings. All Finger really did was come up with the color scheme, the costume, the cape, the cowl, the idea that he shouldn’t have any superpowers, the origin story about his parents being shot in an alley, the idea that he’s a detective, the words “Batmobile” and “Gotham City,” Robin, the Joker, Catwoman, and a few other minor elements.”
As for whether or not there are worse injustices, of course there are in comics and in life. That doesn't mean we should enshrine and celebrate this one. As to whether or not Bill Finger cared, also irrelevant, because we don't celebrate creators for their ego but to express how much their creations mean to us. Does our adulation of Van Gogh matter less because he did not live to know about it?
I think fingers outlook on the matter should have some baring yes. I just personally think has become a much greater "cause" than its worthy of and Kane has been "vilified" perhaps more than he deserves. He wasnt guilty of anything more than countless others in entertainment are on a daily basis. Just seems like its become hip to bring this issue up.
On the other hand -- Kane might not be getting a star for his having created Batman, but for his ground-breaking animation TV series... like Cool McCool and Courageous Cat And Minute Mouse.
There clearly are two ways to look at Kane. The common one is stated above. The other way is that he was smart enough to have legal council and ensured his authorship (to whatever level) of Batman in a time when creators were getting shafted by the publishers left and right. One has to wonder if a lot of the consternation toward Kane by his fellow creators is that he was just smarter than they were in securing his rights. None of which forgives that he was just a crappy person and used ghost artists throughout his career. But how much of the grinding and gnashing of teeth is just jealousy that this hack was savvy in a time when others were selling their rights for $50 and a cup of coffee.
Someone should just start a Kickstarter campaign to get Bill Finger his star.
There clearly are two ways to look at Kane. The common one is stated above. The other way is that he was smart enough to have legal council and ensured his authorship (to whatever level) of Batman in a time when creators were getting shafted by the publishers left and right. One has to wonder if a lot of the consternation toward Kane by his fellow creators is that he was just smarter than they were in securing his rights. None of which forgives that he was just a crappy person and used ghost artists throughout his career. But how much of the grinding and gnashing of teeth is just jealousy that this hack was savvy in a time when others were selling their rights for $50 and a cup of coffee.
Someone should just start a Kickstarter campaign to get Bill Finger his star.
There's probably a number of people who would claim Batman's personality and characteristics are currently written the exact same way as you've described Kane!!
There clearly are two ways to look at Kane. The common one is stated above. The other way is that he was smart enough to have legal council and ensured his authorship (to whatever level) of Batman in a time when creators were getting shafted by the publishers left and right. One has to wonder if a lot of the consternation toward Kane by his fellow creators is that he was just smarter than they were in securing his rights. None of which forgives that he was just a crappy person and used ghost artists throughout his career. But how much of the grinding and gnashing of teeth is just jealousy that this hack was savvy in a time when others were selling their rights for $50 and a cup of coffee.
Someone should just start a Kickstarter campaign to get Bill Finger his star.
Well said. We could all argue that Kane should have been a better person. He could have used his experience as a way to champion creator rights. Educating those in the industry and pushing for reforms decades before the small press revolution of the 80's. Unfortunately, that's not who Bob Kane was. Having said that, and acknowledging all of the man's flaws, I think the star is deserved.
but yeesh I'm personally getting tired of this dinger praising Kane bashing bandwagon. Everyone knows the story. And there is no end to the number of far worse injustices throughout history.
You know its a comic book forum and the bashing band wagon is our primary mode of transportation?
I looked into the worst injustices throughout history forum. There is only so much Secret Wars II, Millennium, and Countdown discussion I can take though.
I always hate this topic. I think Bill Finger should at LEAST get equal credit for creating the character(s). I cannot completely fault Kane, though. If I completely fault him, then I would have to fault anyone who had an opportunity to make a better business decision then the next person.
I would prefer Kane's star before his creations, not for specifically Batman.
Kane usually wasn't the smartest, though, just the biggest. He just happened to have a father in the publishing business (he was a printer), who knew the ins and outs of the business and who represented him in the negotiations and got him a beneficial contract. I think the smartest thing Kane ever did was recognize his limitations as an artist and hire people who could write and draw much better than he could. The rest was more the result of circumstances and luck than his own foresight.
Kane usually wasn't the smartest, though, just the biggest. He just happened to have a father in the publishing business (he was a printer), who knew the ins and outs of the business and who represented him in the negotiations and got him a beneficial contract. I think the smartest thing Kane ever did was recognize his limitations as an artist and hire people who could write and draw much better than he could. The rest was more the result of circumstances and luck than his own foresight.
What's the old cliche?
"A smart man surrounds himself by smarter people?"
Kane usually wasn't the smartest, though, just the biggest. He just happened to have a father in the publishing business (he was a printer), who knew the ins and outs of the business and who represented him in the negotiations and got him a beneficial contract. I think the smartest thing Kane ever did was recognize his limitations as an artist and hire people who could write and draw much better than he could. The rest was more the result of circumstances and luck than his own foresight.
What's the old cliche?
"A smart man surrounds himself by smarter people?"
M
I never said he was an idiot, but some people seem to think he was a genius for keeping a part of the copyright, when it was his father acting on the advice of a lawyer relative (uncle or cousin, I'm not sure) who negotiated the contract. Without them and their knowledge, he most likely would have ended up in the same place Siegel and Shuster did.
I never said he was an idiot, but some people seem to think he was a genius for keeping a part of the copyright, when it was his father acting on the advice of a lawyer relative (uncle or cousin, I'm not sure) who negotiated the contract. Without them and their knowledge, he most likely would have ended up in the same place Siegel and Shuster did.
You can discount having wiser people handle your business weakness, but I don't discount it. There are too many examples of people not listening to wiser influences that end badly.
I never said he was an idiot, but some people seem to think he was a genius for keeping a part of the copyright, when it was his father acting on the advice of a lawyer relative (uncle or cousin, I'm not sure) who negotiated the contract. Without them and their knowledge, he most likely would have ended up in the same place Siegel and Shuster did.
You can discount having wiser people handle your business weakness, but I don't discount it. There are too many examples of people not listening to wiser influences that end badly.
That's very true. I'm not saying he should get no credit whatsoever. He absolutely deserves a large portion of the credit. I'm just pointing out that he was also extremely fortunate. Had Siegel and Shuster had those wiser voices helping them, they likely would have lived much happier lives.
I never met Kane, but I've known many people who knew him pretty well, including a couple of his ghosts, but I try not to let their stories—some of the worst I can't repeat because they were told in confidentiality—influence my opinion of Kane’s actual importance in the industry. Sometimes it's very tough though. Despite that, I think I've been fair in what I've said here.
That's very true. I'm not saying he should get no credit whatsoever. He absolutely deserves a large portion of the credit. I'm just pointing out that he was also extremely fortunate. Had Siegel and Shuster had those wiser voices helping them, they likely would have lived much happier lives.
I never met Kane, but I've known many people who knew him pretty well, including a couple of his ghosts, but I try not to let their stories—some of the worst I can't repeat because they were told in confidentiality—influence my opinion of Kane’s actual importance in the industry. Sometimes it's very tough though. Despite that, I think I've been fair in what I've said here.
I think you've been very fair with your comments about Kane, and I'm not commenting on the man other than the single Batman deal. There are enough stories out in the public that show Kane's true character.
The benefit of this conversation is that it hopefully will direct people who don't know "the story" to do their own research into his career. There are plenty of sources and much of it is pretty good reading. I can't remember the name of the book, but there was a great history of the early creators and publishers that got printed around the time of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay.
The benefit of this conversation is that it hopefully will direct people who don't know "the story" to do their own research into his career. There are plenty of sources and much of it is pretty good reading. I can't remember the name of the book, but there was a great history of the early creators and publishers that got printed around the time of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay.
If were going to use baseball analogies, then I would say the people who don't want Bob Kane to have a Star are probably the same people who that think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. ;):))
If were going to use baseball analogies, then I would say the people who don't want Bob Kane to have a Star are probably the same people who that think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. ;):))
Still angers me that people want Rose in the Hall of fame. But don't want Shoeless Joe Jackson in. With Joe at least there isn't hardcore proof that he threw the World series. Rose IIRC admitted to his wrongdoings.
OT - Yeah…. I'm re-reading Eight Men Out. Once you understand what gambling nearly did to the game, you understand that it has to be strictly enforced. I grew up a Cincy fan and a huge Pete Rose fan. Now…. I can't stand him. His accomplishments are "in the Hall". You can go there and see his stuff. He however should never be in the Hall.
FWIW - I think Shoeless Joe and Buck Weaver did not partake in the conspiracy. But its now history and they are out.
First off, ANYONE can have a star on the walk of fame. You just need to pay the fee and have something they can claim as a credit. With this being Batman’s 75th, someone ponied up the money and he’ll get one. I think if fans want to pony up the money to get Finger one, or Kirby or Ditko or O.G. Whitney or any of the other great comics creators, let’s do it.
Second, for Kane himself, when it comes to discussions like this, I am always reminded of the dialogue in Cerebus back when the book was good when Cerebus asked a rich man about magic:
“Is it your magic?” “I paid for it, so it’s my magic.”
Kane paid people to do Batman for him. Legally and contractually, it’s his. Morally, he’s a snake.
Third, Why DOESN’T Jack Kirby have a star on the walk of fame?
First off, ANYONE can have a star on the walk of fame. You just need to pay the fee and have something they can claim as a credit. With this being Batman’s 75th, someone ponied up the money and he’ll get one. I think if fans want to pony up the money to get Finger one, or Kirby or Ditko or O.G. Whitney or any of the other great comics creators, let’s do it.
Second, for Kane himself, when it comes to discussions like this, I am always reminded of the dialogue in Cerebus back when the book was good when Cerebus asked a rich man about magic:
“Is it your magic?” “I paid for it, so it’s my magic.”
Kane paid people to do Batman for him. Legally and contractually, it’s his. Morally, he’s a snake.
Third, Why DOESN’T Jack Kirby have a star on the walk of fame?
The first paragraph made me laugh. Only because Kim Kardashian was denied a star because "famous for being famous" isn't (thankfully) recognized as star worthy.
First off, ANYONE can have a star on the walk of fame. You just need to pay the fee and have something they can claim as a credit. With this being Batman’s 75th, someone ponied up the money and he’ll get one. I think if fans want to pony up the money to get Finger one, or Kirby or Ditko or O.G. Whitney or any of the other great comics creators, let’s do it.
Second, for Kane himself, when it comes to discussions like this, I am always reminded of the dialogue in Cerebus back when the book was good when Cerebus asked a rich man about magic:
“Is it your magic?” “I paid for it, so it’s my magic.”
Kane paid people to do Batman for him. Legally and contractually, it’s his. Morally, he’s a snake.
Third, Why DOESN’T Jack Kirby have a star on the walk of fame?
The first paragraph made me laugh. Only because Kim Kardashian was denied a star because "famous for being famous" isn't (thankfully) recognized as star worthy.
M
Just a matter of time. I mean Absolut Vodka has a star. (I could get into how her fame and level cultural penetration (ha!) actually do warrant a star, but I'll leave that to Kanye, mostly because I don't care about Walk of Fame stars. Actually I don't care much about Bob Kane's star now that @SolitaireRose has put it in better perspective.)
Comments
I'd agree it should be the character of batman more so than Kane himself, but yeesh I'm personally getting tired of this dinger praising Kane bashing bandwagon. Everyone knows the story. And there is no end to the number of far worse injustices throughout history.
“If I have to grit my teeth and give Kane even the slightest amount of credit, I will say that he was the one who wrote the word “BAT-MAN” down on a piece of paper and drew a character wearing a red suit with a domino mask, blonde hair and a pair of bat wings. All Finger really did was come up with the color scheme, the costume, the cape, the cowl, the idea that he shouldn’t have any superpowers, the origin story about his parents being shot in an alley, the idea that he’s a detective, the words “Batmobile” and “Gotham City,” Robin, the Joker, Catwoman, and a few other minor elements.”
As for whether or not there are worse injustices, of course there are in comics and in life. That doesn't mean we should enshrine and celebrate this one. As to whether or not Bill Finger cared, also irrelevant, because we don't celebrate creators for their ego but to express how much their creations mean to us. Does our adulation of Van Gogh matter less because he did not live to know about it?
Someone should just start a Kickstarter campaign to get Bill Finger his star.
M
We could all argue that Kane should have been a better person. He could have used his experience as a way to champion creator rights. Educating those in the industry and pushing for reforms decades before the small press revolution of the 80's. Unfortunately, that's not who Bob Kane was.
Having said that, and acknowledging all of the man's flaws, I think the star is deserved.
I looked into the worst injustices throughout history forum. There is only so much Secret Wars II, Millennium, and Countdown discussion I can take though.
I would prefer Kane's star before his creations, not for specifically Batman.
M
"A smart man surrounds himself by smarter people?"
M
I never met Kane, but I've known many people who knew him pretty well, including a couple of his ghosts, but I try not to let their stories—some of the worst I can't repeat because they were told in confidentiality—influence my opinion of Kane’s actual importance in the industry. Sometimes it's very tough though. Despite that, I think I've been fair in what I've said here.
EDIT: Found the book… Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book
FWIW - I think Shoeless Joe and Buck Weaver did not partake in the conspiracy. But its now history and they are out.
Second, for Kane himself, when it comes to discussions like this, I am always reminded of the dialogue in Cerebus back when the book was good when Cerebus asked a rich man about magic:
“Is it your magic?”
“I paid for it, so it’s my magic.”
Kane paid people to do Batman for him. Legally and contractually, it’s his. Morally, he’s a snake.
Third, Why DOESN’T Jack Kirby have a star on the walk of fame?
M