I haven't minded the sex or nudity in Saga. To me, it is establishing the tone of the world (e.g. this is a world where people with TVs for heads have sex and try to make babies- I actually took that scene to be there to alienate and show how strange of a sci-fantasy setting it is, rather than to titillate or be sexy, just like I took the Stalk's bare breasts to actually make her scarier and more Medusa-like than sexy).
It may have been unnecessary, or maybe it isn't, personally I think it might be too soon to tell. It will depend on how important, say, those TV headed people end up being. For me, it is not any more extraneous or sophomoric than a scene of violence meant to establish that this is a violent setting, you know what I mean?
But I respect that your reaction may differ. I also think that sex scenes (perhaps more than violence scenes) are held to a higher standard of having to be vital to the story, because there is so much titillation and wank out there, that I think there is a wariness against it. But maybe because so many comics are about violent conflict resolution, scenes of violence- including completely unnecessary ones- end up just passing as atmosphere or a way to introduce a character.
(Again, though, I am not saying that is affecting your specific perspective. Just a general observation I've noticed.)
@WetRats If only this forum allowed a signature... this would surely be it "I know I was less bothered by the robot sex than I was by the spider-boobs." =D>
This book/concept is right up my sister's alley. not sure if I feel comfortable enough to have a sixteen year old read it, though. what do you guys think?
@JakeJarmel Honestly I think it is perfectly fine. It is about the same as stuff like Twilight and other similar popular young adult stuff currently. Unless she is a sheltered 16, I don't think this would be that crazy for her. Just MHO, maybe flip through issues 1&2 to decide for yourself though. I was reading and doing way worse by 16 personally (see Larry Clark comment above ;) )
After the reread, I think the robot humping was actually a pretty good scene, but I still think the spider-tits were silly (though certainly well-drawn... hands-down the nicest pair of spider tits I've ever seen.)
I think I would enjoy this book more if I hadn't read so much Heavy Metal in my teens and twenties. While the material is a fresh change from everything else on the market, it's nothing I haven't already seen Moebius or Angus McKie do better.
I am, however, impressed as hell by Fiona Staples, and look forward to seeing her career progress.
@WetRats, an open mind is more than I could ask so I appreciate the fair appraisal. I still think of the Stalk as a siren-type female character and that it required that odd mix of alluring/sexy/scary/creepy. And as you mentioned the way the breasts were drawn wasn't over-the-top or ridiculous, but actually fairly understated and real which is why I didn't find it to be Heavy Metal/pervish at all.
Fiona Staples is definitely learning as she goes, in fact a week or so ago she was asking some pretty basic questions on how to use Manga Studio on Twitter which just proves out my initial comments that she is learning and still really green. In issue #2 that Dragon/Bus panel was cringe-worthy and she does still have some clunkers but she also has some pretty work as well in there and it can only get better. That style of digital painting is more about tricks of the eye and hinting at what is there without drawing it and while there are a lot of artists that do it there are few that do it really well, I'd say she is in the middle of that spectrum but from what I see I think she will get better with every issue and hopefully she learns to ink better now that she is planning on doing it in Manga Studio instead of PS. No more dragon busses.
Fiona Staples is definitely learning as she goes, in fact a week or so ago she was asking some pretty basic questions on how to use Manga Studio on Twitter which just proves out my initial comments that she is learning and still really green. In issue #2 that Dragon/Bus panel was cringe-worthy and she does still have some clunkers but she also has some pretty work as well in there and it can only get better. That style of digital painting is more about tricks of the eye and hinting at what is there without drawing it and while there are a lot of artists that do it there are few that do it really well, I'd say she is in the middle of that spectrum but from what I see I think she will get better with every issue and hopefully she learns to ink better now that she is planning on doing it in Manga Studio instead of PS. No more dragon busses.
I'm reminded of the first couple issues of Mage. Matt Wagner was learning as he went, and it showed, but the incredible promise of what was to come was also there from the get-go.
After the reread, I think the robot humping was actually a pretty good scene, but I still think the spider-tits were silly (though certainly well-drawn... hands-down the nicest pair of spider tits I've ever seen.)
I think I would enjoy this book more if I hadn't read so much Heavy Metal in my teens and twenties. While the material is a fresh change from everything else on the market, it's nothing I haven't already seen Moebius or Angus McKie do better.
I am, however, impressed as hell by Fiona Staples, and look forward to seeing her career progress.
I think it is great that you gave it another read-- I mean, how often does someone actually take the time to do that and see what others are talking about, rather than just stand by their first impression?
Sorry to hear that it is still not grabbing you. For me, it is less the setting and Heavy Metal-esque space fantasy style (though I do like that, and haven't read as much of that as you have), but more that it emotionally grabbed me. The characters, the situation we met them in, what is at stake for them, and who is narrating the story. Now, I may just be primed for that kind of story these days, but it definitely had me wrapped around it's little finger by the end of that first issue. And if the characters and situation was not as compelling to you, I could see where that would leave the style and setting, which may feel like a lot of things you've already read.
Still, though, I think it's great you gave it another consideration. And if Staples gets you to stick with it, maybe it will make some moves coming up that will feel fresher.
Shrug, I am glad other people find a lot of joy in this book. I think it is good, but certainly not great. The art is really very basic in some places. The story is OK, but is certainly nothing ground breaking.
Shrug, I am glad other people find a lot of joy in this book. I think it is good, but certainly not great. The art is really very basic in some places. The story is OK, but is certainly nothing ground breaking.
For what it is worth, I wouldn't suggest that it breaks new ground.
Rather, it is just very compelling, feels personal, genre-bending (rather than playing it safe by being Exactly One Thing We've Seen Before) and is very, very good. (At least, to me.) So, not groundbreaking, but exciting, and refreshing. A book I am not sure what to expect next.
Like I say I think it is good, but for me it is not there in terms of doing anything different. I consider Chew to be an OK story with art work that really sends it over the edge. On the opposite track I think Morning Glory has an awesome story with just OK art.
I was very glad to have Saga back last week. And I liked that #7 may have done that somewhat conventional after-the-first-arc thing of peeking into the past of one of the main characters. . . but I love that they didn't spend a whole issue on it and, of course, they didn't use a fill-in artist to do it. Instead, we got a look into the past, but the present story moved forward, too.
I was very glad to have Saga back last week. And I liked that #7 may have done that somewhat conventional after-the-first-arc thing of peeking into the past of one of the main characters. . . but I love that they didn't spend a whole issue on it and, of course, they didn't use a fill-in artist to do it. Instead, we got a look into the past, but the present story moved forward, too.
There is no better book coming out right now.
All that, plus… full frontal ogre nudity.
I'm still having nightmares about that horrible horrible page.
The gross-out sexual content just seems sophomoric and unnecessary to me. It has completely put me off of a book I might otherwise have enjoyed.
Spider boobs and ogre schlongs just seem like a silly distraction from an otherwise serious story. I just don't get the point.
I think it's awesome and appropriately reflects the world that they are constructing. It's not an all ages book by any means and they established that early in the first issue.
Would a giant, bone-wielding ogre who seems to be the top of his planet's food chain necessarily have a sense of personal decorum?
This is by far the best book out there in my eyes (I may be wrong, but I can't afford to read every book). There's nothing else out that I look forward to more and likewise no other book that leaves me so satisfied after reading. The ogre that's causing a bit of debate just made cringe and then chuckle because it fits in perfectly with everything in the 'sagaverse'. Vaughn and Staples I tip my cap to you.
I agree. There is actually a lot of good stuff being published but Saga stands above them all. This is one of the most refreshing books that I've ever read. I hope this title lasts a very long time.
The gross-out sexual content just seems sophomoric and unnecessary to me. It has completely put me off of a book I might otherwise have enjoyed.
Spider boobs and ogre schlongs just seem like a silly distraction from an otherwise serious story. I just don't get the point.
I respect where you are coming from, but for me, I didn't find it unnecessary as I don't think the intent was sophomoric, or just to gross-out. Well, okay, I guess in the case of the ogre it was to gross-out, but I found it to be connected to the narrative. The big, scary, splashy entrance of the ogre was supposed to be threatening and disgusting. Because that is what ogres are. And, sure, there are a lot of different ways to go about making a character disgusting, but I found giant, terrible balls to be a valid choice, because it successfully made that moment both a moment of peril and disgust. It put me in the character's shoes.
For me, that The Stalk is topless just made her more of a classical monster. Like the Medusa of Greek myth. Or all those various topless monsters in the old Deities & Demigods book (bless that book- these were the things that used to fly off the radar back in the day!) That the Stalk is feminine and sexualized on top of being monstrous is a part of what makes her scary- and, again, it is in keeping with a long tradition.
It was the same with the brothel on that one planet the bounty hunter goes to. It was established that there was an enormous, excessive amount of sex going on so that when he meets the young girl who is enslaved there, you are in his shoes with that feeling of needing to get all Taxi Driver and rescue her, even if that is not his usual thing. I don't think Staples did those pages because she thought we would masturbate to them. I think they were going for a disgusting, over-the-top amount of sex so meeting that young girl offered to him for sex has more punch.
Again, if it isn't working for you, I get that. But it has worked for me. I feel like there is an intent there that makes these images- shocking out of context- serve the story.
BTW: I just watched Ragtime for the first time in years. There's a great scene in which the character's nudity is crucial to the story and character. Great movie, if you get a chance, give it a look.
BTW: I just watched Ragtime for the first time in years. There's a great scene in which the character's nudity is crucial to the story and character. Great movie, if you get a chance, give it a look.
Thanks. I've actually never seen Ragtime (though I have heard it is very good) but I think the crucial to story and character is a good test.
And I would say not just for nudity or sexuality. I would say that is also just as important of a test for violence, though I would say whether violence is crucial to the story or character is much less considered when it comes to comics. Often the violence is considered matter of fact (and thought of simply as "action") and I think nudity, being the more rare thing, ends up getting more notice.
And, with that, I will now read the Wolverine Max #1 that I forgot I ordered. I don't want to prejudge, but. . .
Comments
It may have been unnecessary, or maybe it isn't, personally I think it might be too soon to tell. It will depend on how important, say, those TV headed people end up being. For me, it is not any more extraneous or sophomoric than a scene of violence meant to establish that this is a violent setting, you know what I mean?
But I respect that your reaction may differ. I also think that sex scenes (perhaps more than violence scenes) are held to a higher standard of having to be vital to the story, because there is so much titillation and wank out there, that I think there is a wariness against it. But maybe because so many comics are about violent conflict resolution, scenes of violence- including completely unnecessary ones- end up just passing as atmosphere or a way to introduce a character.
(Again, though, I am not saying that is affecting your specific perspective. Just a general observation I've noticed.)
Perhaps my reaction was biased by some of the above comments regarding the "do-ability" of The Stalk.
I know I was less bothered by the robot sex than I was by the spider-boobs.
After the reread, I think the robot humping was actually a pretty good scene, but I still think the spider-tits were silly (though certainly well-drawn... hands-down the nicest pair of spider tits I've ever seen.)
I think I would enjoy this book more if I hadn't read so much Heavy Metal in my teens and twenties. While the material is a fresh change from everything else on the market, it's nothing I haven't already seen Moebius or Angus McKie do better.
I am, however, impressed as hell by Fiona Staples, and look forward to seeing her career progress.
Fiona Staples is definitely learning as she goes, in fact a week or so ago she was asking some pretty basic questions on how to use Manga Studio on Twitter which just proves out my initial comments that she is learning and still really green. In issue #2 that Dragon/Bus panel was cringe-worthy and she does still have some clunkers but she also has some pretty work as well in there and it can only get better. That style of digital painting is more about tricks of the eye and hinting at what is there without drawing it and while there are a lot of artists that do it there are few that do it really well, I'd say she is in the middle of that spectrum but from what I see I think she will get better with every issue and hopefully she learns to ink better now that she is planning on doing it in Manga Studio instead of PS. No more dragon busses.
Sorry to hear that it is still not grabbing you. For me, it is less the setting and Heavy Metal-esque space fantasy style (though I do like that, and haven't read as much of that as you have), but more that it emotionally grabbed me. The characters, the situation we met them in, what is at stake for them, and who is narrating the story. Now, I may just be primed for that kind of story these days, but it definitely had me wrapped around it's little finger by the end of that first issue. And if the characters and situation was not as compelling to you, I could see where that would leave the style and setting, which may feel like a lot of things you've already read.
Still, though, I think it's great you gave it another consideration. And if Staples gets you to stick with it, maybe it will make some moves coming up that will feel fresher.
Rather, it is just very compelling, feels personal, genre-bending (rather than playing it safe by being Exactly One Thing We've Seen Before) and is very, very good. (At least, to me.) So, not groundbreaking, but exciting, and refreshing. A book I am not sure what to expect next.
And I need more books like that every month.
There is no better book coming out right now.
I'm still having nightmares about that horrible horrible page.
Spider boobs and ogre schlongs just seem like a silly distraction from an otherwise serious story. I just don't get the point.
Would a giant, bone-wielding ogre who seems to be the top of his planet's food chain necessarily have a sense of personal decorum?
For me, that The Stalk is topless just made her more of a classical monster. Like the Medusa of Greek myth. Or all those various topless monsters in the old Deities & Demigods book (bless that book- these were the things that used to fly off the radar back in the day!) That the Stalk is feminine and sexualized on top of being monstrous is a part of what makes her scary- and, again, it is in keeping with a long tradition.
It was the same with the brothel on that one planet the bounty hunter goes to. It was established that there was an enormous, excessive amount of sex going on so that when he meets the young girl who is enslaved there, you are in his shoes with that feeling of needing to get all Taxi Driver and rescue her, even if that is not his usual thing. I don't think Staples did those pages because she thought we would masturbate to them. I think they were going for a disgusting, over-the-top amount of sex so meeting that young girl offered to him for sex has more punch.
Again, if it isn't working for you, I get that. But it has worked for me. I feel like there is an intent there that makes these images- shocking out of context- serve the story.
BTW: I just watched Ragtime for the first time in years. There's a great scene in which the character's nudity is crucial to the story and character. Great movie, if you get a chance, give it a look.
And I would say not just for nudity or sexuality. I would say that is also just as important of a test for violence, though I would say whether violence is crucial to the story or character is much less considered when it comes to comics. Often the violence is considered matter of fact (and thought of simply as "action") and I think nudity, being the more rare thing, ends up getting more notice.
And, with that, I will now read the Wolverine Max #1 that I forgot I ordered. I don't want to prejudge, but. . .