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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    I liked the idea when I heard it (the original is my favorite Marvel event). When I saw the beautiful image by Ross & read some of the details, I began to lose interest.

    M
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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    WetRats said:

    Oh joy.

    More heroes fighting heroes.

    Looks like the Marvel Universe is being turned into a Mortal Kombat-style video game.

    What an original idea.

    It's Hickman. He could write the alphabet on a piece of toilet paper and I'd buy it.

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    RickMRickM Posts: 407
    "We're going to fight a war. But in secret. It's imperative that you do not tell any members of the Fantastic Four."
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    mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,617
    I enjoy the old Sega Justice League fighting game, and I love Marvel/XMen vs. Capcom/Streetfighter.

    I'm in.
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    David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881
    edited October 2014
    WetRats said:

    Oh joy.

    More heroes fighting heroes.

    Looks like the Marvel Universe is being turned into a Mortal Kombat-style video game.

    What an original idea.

    Well, it has been what they have been doing since the very first time their heroes crossed over with each other. And it seems to be what the people want.

    Don't get me wrong, I like bad guys, and I have been wanting them to "Bring Back the Bad Guys" as an event for awhile. We at least got that in Infinity. And Axis is starting out that way.

    My hope-- and the fact that it is Hickman encourages this hope, even though this is clearly a big, merchandise-influenced, multi-platform plan-- is that this truly is the story that Hickman has been building to in Avengers/ New Avengers. And he is such a meticulous, concentric-circle-writing planner, that I actually believe that is possible. Sure, a lot of other departments are getting in on this and platforming it out. And I know that the "Secret Wars" name, to those of us that remember the first two, actually inspired suspicion rather than excitement.

    But here's why I think this might work out, at least the actual comic part of it--

    We are right now more than 60 issues into Hickman's Marvel Now! Avengers era, between Avengers and New (and, damn, when I did the math on that, I realized that double-shipping can fill a short box quick!) And the whole things- while having subplots and B storylines and such- has basically been one, big story. And at the moment, both books are starting to connect with each other more and build up to a conclusion.

    And while on the one hand, especially to those who might not be reading it, a 60 to 70 issue story might sound like the worst excesses of decompression, to me it hasn't been. What it has been is consistent, and consistently entertaining. Big. Cosmic. Sometimes trippy. Always high stakes. These have felt like capital-A Avengers books.

    And the overarcing story and threat, put most simply, is basically a multiversal crisis. An incursion threat that comes from a universe that suddenly doesn't have room for this many Earths anymore.

    One of the best stories has been the New Avengers facing off against a cool analogue of Squadron Supreme (there therefore, actually an analogue of the Justice League) from another Earth. And instead of this being just typical hero vs. hero stuff, Hickman really gets into the moral gray areas of it all. As the scale is world level, it is a fight between good and good when the choice seems to be letting your Earth survive or theirs.

    A new idea? Of course not. But the execution has been very strong so far. And if the big finish is an even larger, multiversal story filled with the characters of different Earths? Well, yes, that does sound like a video game.

    But when the comic has Hickman and Ribic at the wheel, I expect it is going to be more than that. Sure, from a marketing point of view, the real purpose will be "look at all these toys we can sell!!" But my hope is that, with the toys taking care of themselves, Hickman will use the comic to actually be the big finish of something he has been working on for years.

    That is a very different situation from what Shooter did. Where basically the tail wagged the dog (Here are toys-- MAKE A BIG COMIC TO SELL THESE TOYS!) and (if the stories are to be believed) he went about also trying to show everyone else on staff how it was done, and how the comics should be, like this was the style guide or something. And the result was a really terrible comic. Maybe, at least partly, because the writing was motivated by all the wrong reasons.

    My hope is that Hickman basically sold them on the story HE wanted to do. And now the idea is cool enough, and had the right opportunity, that they are going to make some toys and things from it. But that is the dog wagging the tail. You know what I mean?
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    David_D said:

    You know what I mean?

    I do know what you mean, and I hope you're right, but I'm having Civil War flashbacks.

    And I'm tired of exploring moral grey areas. I have to do that every day. I want more escapism and less "realism".

    Books like Rocket Raccoon and Silver Surfer are much more what I'm wanting from my superhero comics.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    edited October 2014
    "Escapism" might not even be the right word.

    "Optimism" is really what I'm looking for.

    I'm so tired of dark, darker, darkest.
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    TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    They saw Injustice: Gods Among Us and got all jelly. :)
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Torchsong said:

    They saw Injustice: Gods Among Us and got all jelly. :)

    That was my second reaction.
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    David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881
    WetRats said:

    "Escapism" might not even be the right word.

    "Optimism" is really what I'm looking for.

    I'm so tired of dark, darker, darkest.

    I do get that.

    And. . . I don't know that a big Hickman story, no matter how well-structured, will be for you. He doesn't tend to do hope.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    "Escapism" might not even be the right word.

    "Optimism" is really what I'm looking for.

    I'm so tired of dark, darker, darkest.

    I do get that.

    And. . . I don't know that a big Hickman story, no matter how well-structured, will be for you. He doesn't tend to do hope.
    I think this is one of the reasons I'm enjoying Dr. Who so much these days...


    Also, I realize I'm like Captain Kirk, I don't believe in no-win scenarios. :D
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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited October 2014
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    You know what I mean?

    I do know what you mean, and I hope you're right, but I'm having Civil War flashbacks.

    And I'm tired of exploring moral grey areas. I have to do that every day. I want more escapism and less "realism".

    Books like Rocket Raccoon and Silver Surfer are much more what I'm wanting from my superhero comics.
    Civil War was 616 heroes fighting over politics.

    The image that's been released for Secret Wars has about six different versions of all the Avengers members fighting. I see Avengers of the past, future, and alternate Earths. In the background there is an exploding world - something that's been a regular thing in The Avengers lately. The Multiverse is dying and heroes from other universes have been battling each other in order to save their own worlds. This looks like a perfect continuation of Hickman's epic, cosmic, multiverse shattering story...no realism to be found there...and not at all like Civil War...though a Captain America might die.
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    David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881
    Mr_Cosmic said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    You know what I mean?

    I do know what you mean, and I hope you're right, but I'm having Civil War flashbacks.

    And I'm tired of exploring moral grey areas. I have to do that every day. I want more escapism and less "realism".

    Books like Rocket Raccoon and Silver Surfer are much more what I'm wanting from my superhero comics.
    Civil War was 616 heroes fighting over politics.

    The image that's been released for Secret Wars has about six different versions of all the Avengers members fighting. I see Avengers of the past, future, and alternate Earths. In the background there is an exploding world - something that's been a regular thing in The Avengers lately. The Multiverse is dying and heroes from other universes have been battling each other in order to save their own worlds. This looks like a perfect continuation of Hickman's epic, cosmic, multiverse shattering story...not at all like Civil War...though a Captain America might die.
    I would counter, though, and this is not to argue, but just as a reminder about how personal and subjective the lens we look at stories tends to be, that Hickman's story so far has been just as political as Civil War. Only where Civil War was about the tension between civil liberties and security, the Hickman story has been about the tension that comes of people sharing diminishing resources. (And 'one Earth gets to live if the other Earth dies, or else both die' is just a speculative way to make that more urgent, and binary)

    But that might just be the way I see it. Certainly there is a difference that, as Hickman is not the provocateur that Millar is, he is going to probably be a little more subtle and smoother when it comes to the politics of his story. (If he sees it that way at all.)

    A reminder that all storytelling is political. (Even if it is not always Partisan.)
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Mr_Cosmic said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    You know what I mean?

    I do know what you mean, and I hope you're right, but I'm having Civil War flashbacks.

    And I'm tired of exploring moral grey areas. I have to do that every day. I want more escapism and less "realism".

    Books like Rocket Raccoon and Silver Surfer are much more what I'm wanting from my superhero comics.
    Civil War was 616 heroes fighting over politics.

    The image that's been released for Secret Wars has about six different versions of all the Avengers members fighting. I see Avengers of the past, future, and alternate Earths. In the background there is an exploding world - something that's been a regular thing in The Avengers lately. The Multiverse is dying and heroes from other universes have been battling each other in order to save their own worlds. This looks like a perfect continuation of Hickman's epic, cosmic, multiverse shattering story...no realism to be found there...and not at all like Civil War...though a Captain America might die.
    I get the differences, but to me, but stories are excuses to have heroes fight each other.

    Which, to me, makes them cease to be heroes.
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    RickM said:

    "We're going to fight a war. But in secret. It's imperative that you do not tell any members of the Fantastic Four."

    I think the X-Men aren't getting the memo either. Well, if he's back, Wolverine will...but apparently he's more an Avenger now.

    M
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    David_D said:

    A reminder that all storytelling is political. (Even if it is not always Partisan.)

    Nice.
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    MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    "Escapism" might not even be the right word.

    "Optimism" is really what I'm looking for.

    I'm so tired of dark, darker, darkest.

    I do get that.

    And. . . I don't know that a big Hickman story, no matter how well-structured, will be for you. He doesn't tend to do hope.
    Also, I realize I'm like Captain Kirk, I don't believe in no-win scenarios. :D
    I concur on this; no-scenarios only mean you haven't figured one out.
    WetRats said:

    "Escapism" might not even be the right word.

    "Optimism" is really what I'm looking for.

    I'm so tired of dark, darker, darkest.

    Within the last decade or so, there have been 2 occasions I've come to realize how jaded I've become. When I watched Spider-man for the first (of 10 theatre views) time & when I see the innocence of my daughter.

    I enjoy the dark & jadedness, but there are times I still like a reminder there's still innocence out there.

    M

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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited October 2014
    David_D said:

    Mr_Cosmic said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    You know what I mean?

    I do know what you mean, and I hope you're right, but I'm having Civil War flashbacks.

    And I'm tired of exploring moral grey areas. I have to do that every day. I want more escapism and less "realism".

    Books like Rocket Raccoon and Silver Surfer are much more what I'm wanting from my superhero comics.
    Civil War was 616 heroes fighting over politics.

    The image that's been released for Secret Wars has about six different versions of all the Avengers members fighting. I see Avengers of the past, future, and alternate Earths. In the background there is an exploding world - something that's been a regular thing in The Avengers lately. The Multiverse is dying and heroes from other universes have been battling each other in order to save their own worlds. This looks like a perfect continuation of Hickman's epic, cosmic, multiverse shattering story...not at all like Civil War...though a Captain America might die.
    I would counter, though, and this is not to argue, but just as a reminder about how personal and subjective the lens we look at stories tends to be, that Hickman's story so far has been just as political as Civil War. Only where Civil War was about the tension between civil liberties and security, the Hickman story has been about the tension that comes of people sharing diminishing resources. (And 'one Earth gets to live if the other Earth dies, or else both die' is just a speculative way to make that more urgent, and binary)

    But that might just be the way I see it. Certainly there is a difference that, as Hickman is not the provocateur that Millar is, he is going to probably be a little more subtle and smoother when it comes to the politics of his story. (If he sees it that way at all.)

    A reminder that all storytelling is political. (Even if it is not always Partisan.)
    No, I agree...when I brought up politics I meant the politics we are familiar with...government regulations, Right vs Left, etc. There was no hiding the politics there while I think you have to search for it a bit more in other stories. Regardless, what Hickman is doing is a long way from the realism that Civil War was striving for, IMHO.

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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    Within the last decade or so, there have been 2 occasions I've come to realize how jaded I've become. When I watched Spider-man for the first (of 10 theatre views) time & when I see the innocence of my daughter.

    I enjoy the dark & jadedness, but there are times I still like a reminder there's still innocence out there.

    M

    :D

    Innocence is wonderful, but I also think there's room for hope, optimism and the will to make things better.
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    HexHex Posts: 944
    extremely sceptical.
    However, I did like the inclusion of what looks like Obnoxio the Clown in the upper right of the Ross poster image.
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    With Hickman writing, I have absolutely no interest... But if somebody uses this as an excuse to ressurect Exiles, I won't mind.
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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200

    With Hickman writing, I have absolutely no interest...

    image
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    random73random73 Posts: 2,318

    With Hickman writing, I have absolutely no interest... But if somebody uses this as an excuse to ressurect Exiles, I won't mind.

    I don't know that i'd go with you as far as to say I have NO interest in this. But I think I'm with you in being less of a Hickman fan than some, or even most. There is such a thing as too dense or too tightly constructed. I was initially excited to see New Universe White Event turn up in the 616 but the story just kept going and going and going. eventually I stopped caring. I think his talent might be better suited to a more long-form medium.
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    random73 said:

    With Hickman writing, I have absolutely no interest... But if somebody uses this as an excuse to ressurect Exiles, I won't mind.

    I don't know that i'd go with you as far as to say I have NO interest in this. But I think I'm with you in being less of a Hickman fan than some, or even most. There is such a thing as too dense or too tightly constructed. I was initially excited to see New Universe White Event turn up in the 616 but the story just kept going and going and going. eventually I stopped caring. I think his talent might be better suited to a more long-form medium.
    His story-telling comes off as cold and artificial. Like it's in love with its own machinations. It never seems like the characters are driving the plot, but rather the reverse. I was put off by it in Secret Warriors and completely over it when I finished his FF runs.

    And on a more personal note, I hated that his FF run basically backed a dump truck over everything DnA had done with the Kree and Inhumans.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    It would sure be nice to see a giant Alex Ross poster of dozens of parallel-world Tony Starks and Hank Pyms and Bruce Banners and Reed Richardses and Doctors Strange and Doctors Doom working together to solve the converging worlds problem rather than stupidly fighting each other.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Hey!

    Here's an idea.

    Unleash the power of dozens of parallel Franklin Richardses on the problem.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    And Dozens of Impossible Men!
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    DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586
    I love Multiverse stuff, so this is in my wheelhouse.
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    DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586



    And on a more personal note, I hated that his FF run basically backed a dump truck over everything DnA had done with the Kree and Inhumans.

    I like Hickman's run for the most part, but that did stick in my craw. I loved what DnA set up. And when I read FF.... "Well, I guess that's over with."
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    David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,881
    WetRats said:

    It would sure be nice to see a giant Alex Ross poster of dozens of parallel-world Tony Starks and Hank Pyms and Bruce Banners and Reed Richardses and Doctors Strange and Doctors Doom working together to solve the converging worlds problem rather than stupidly fighting each other.

    And, to be fair, the story may end up going that way. But, come on, it is the Marvel Universe! The beginning of every team up is a misunderstanding and a fight. It's been like that from the start.

    And a big brainstorming session, with a lot of lists of ideas on white boards, rolled up sleeves, cups of coffee. It doesn't make for the same Alex Ross poster. You know what I mean? ;)
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