As for where stylized art belongs, do you mean to tell me that Jack Kirby shouldn't have drawn any mainstream books? His work is every bit as stylized as Allred’s and Pulido’s.
As you're well aware, some people would argue that ONE way, and others the other.
As for where stylized art belongs, do you mean to tell me that Jack Kirby shouldn't have drawn any mainstream books? His work is every bit as stylized as Allred’s and Pulido’s.
As you're well aware, some people would argue that ONE way, and others the other.
Stylized art ≠ popular art.
Oh, I know. It’s funny how terms get thrown around and mean different things to different people. I could just have easily thrown in Bruce Timm or Darwyn Cooke, but I doubt anyone would have objected to either of them drawing She-Hulk. And I doubt anyone would have complained if Pulido had drawn the book in the same manner he drew the Black Cat miniseries.
With She-Hulk, he was trying something different and more design-oriented with a flatter, deader line, and it’s not what most superhero fans want to see. Especially when it comes to heroes of the female persuasion.
For what it's worth, I agree with you, although I was in the camp that was put off by Pulido's rendering of Shulkie. I actually would have liked to have seen Kirby's version, it would probably have been very similar in some ways.
Whoa! Looks like that one totally slipped under my radar... I'm going to have to hunt that down. ...and it will be nice the read the Black Cat as she is supposed to be, rather than the overly ambitious, "catty" crime lord, that the Spidey series are currently portraying her.
Oh, absolutely. Pulido is heavily influenced by Kirby—and I'm not talking surface details, but Kirby’s forms and compositions. Kirby became more and more design-oriented in his drawing throughout the ’60s and into the ’70s. As did Alex Toth, Carmine Infantino, and many other artists.
Whoa! Looks like that one totally slipped under my radar... I'm going to have to hunt that down. ...and it will be nice the read the Black Cat as she is supposed to be, rather than the overly ambitious, "catty" crime lord, that the Spidey series are currently portraying her.
It was a good heist story with some nice twists and turns. The official title is Amazing Spider-Man Presents: Black Cat. It came out in 2010, written by Jen Van Meter.
It was a good heist story with some nice twists and turns. The official title is Amazing Spider-Man Presents: Black Cat. It came out in 2010, written by Jen Van Meter.
Sold! I'll ask the guys at my LCS if they have it.
In other words, the book is working very hard (consciously or unconsciously, I don't know) to de-objectify her as a character.
Justin Gray and Jimmy Palmiotti accomplished this with Power Girl and Amanda Conner still drew Karen as being a very attractive woman. In fact, Amanda Conner really embraced the sexuality of the character and that run is probably the best Power Girl has ever been. And, more recently, David Lopez's interpretation of Carol Danvers is also pretty standard. Her costume isn't revealing anymore but she's still drawn as an attractive woman.
Charles Soule is just as good of a writer as Gray and Palmiotti and Kelly Sue DeConnick, so I think that having a more standard visual take on She-Hulk wouldn't have really distracted from the focus at all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way criticizing Pulido's artwork. I just don't think it's application on She-Hulk was necessary. What Michael Allred is doing on Silver Surfer fits that book much better and books of that nature are really where more stylized art belongs.
This is, of course, only my opinion. In the end, it's really all subjective, though, and that's the beautiful thing about art.
I enjoyed those first twelve issues of Power Girl as much as anyone. But with Power Girl—arguably the most sexualized character of the Big Two—avoiding the issue of her sexualization would be ignoring the elephant in the room. I think in her case, it was absolutely the best way to go, to attack the issue head-on and use it to the character's advantage.
Further, I think Amanda Conner would have been great on this She-Hulk series. I probably would have still picked it up if she had been drawing it rather than Pulido. But I don't think the book would have been any better because of it, though I grant that it might have sold better. I say might, because there are several other factors which I listed previously I think hurt sales.
As for where stylized art belongs, do you mean to tell me that Jack Kirby shouldn't have drawn any mainstream books? His work is every bit as stylized as Allred’s and Pulido’s.
I didn't say stylized art doesn't belong in mainstream books. I said that what Allred is doing on Silver Surfer, which is itself by definition a mainstream book, fits that book well. And I stand by that statement because Silver Surfer is a cosmic book and Allred's work actually augments the alien nature of the settings and characters. He literally has an entire universe to play with and that allows him room to express himself more than if he were working on Spider-Man or Daredevil, two characters who are slightly more grounded in reality.
Personally I can't and won't comment on Kirby's artwork because I simply haven't read enough comics that he's worked on to have a relevant opinion.
I do see the point you're trying to make in that stylized artists shouldn't be segregated from working on mainstream books but I can't accept that their art should also be accepted without question. Would you want to see Bill Sienkiewicz's interpretation of the Peanuts gang?
Would you want to see Bill Sienkiewicz's interpretation of the Peanuts gang?
I think phrasing the question that way actually gets to the heart of the difference here-- the difference between comic strip characters like the Peanuts, for whom there was for decades a single creator artist (aided by a studio of people hired to imitate his style as closely as possible, and licensed materials and animation adaptations that were meant to imitate Schultz as much as possible). That creates an expectation of how those characters "should" look. There ends up being a "right" way.
That's not true for Marvel Universe characters. The piecework, work-for-hire nature of the work, and the desire to almost immediately have the popular characters appear in more than one book, meant that there was almost immediately no single or "right" way for a character to look. Within the first few years of the Marvel Universe, you could see The Thing drawn by Kirby and The Thing drawn by Ditko. And both were valid. So that would be true for She Hulk, too. Especially given that the character has been around for decades.
A reader can prefer one style over another, but I don't think there is an objective to how a character SHOULD be. A stylized Allred Silver Surfer is no more right than a photo realistic Alex Ross one.
(That said... I would LOVE to see a Bill Sienkiewicz Sunday Peanuts strip.)
I didn't say stylized art doesn't belong in mainstream books. I said that what Allred is doing on Silver Surfer, which is itself by definition a mainstream book, fits that book well. And I stand by that statement because Silver Surfer is a cosmic book and Allred's work actually augments the alien nature of the settings and characters. He literally has an entire universe to play with and that allows him room to express himself more than if he were working on Spider-Man or Daredevil, two characters who are slightly more grounded in reality.
You're right, I shouldn’t have put it that way. But your line, “books of that nature are really where more stylized art belongs,” made me think you feel that stylized artwork only belongs in fringe titles—which Silver Surfer certainly is—and not in the core titles—which She-Hulk would not have been no matter who was drawing it.
I quite agree that Mike is a great fit for Silver Surfer, but I actually love his take on Spidey and DD as well.
I do see the point you're trying to make in that stylized artists shouldn't be segregated from working on mainstream books but I can't accept that their art should also be accepted without question. Would you want to see Bill Sienkiewicz's interpretation of the Peanuts gang?
And I'm not saying anyone’s art should be accepted without question, but likewise it shouldn’t be dismissed without question.
And here's the thing: all comic book art is stylized in some form or fashion. Photo-realism is a term used quite a bit these days—I use it myself. But even Alex Ross’ work is stylized. For me, it’s not about saying, “This style works for this, and that style works for that,” it’s about what each artist brings to the story.
For example, I love Joe Kubert’s war stories. But I love Harvey Kurtzman’s war stories just as much. Kubert is much more illustrative in his approach, while Kurtzman is more graphic, but each tell their war stories in a way that is powerful and profound. No one will ever convince me one way is better or worse than the other.
Kubert:
Kurtzman:
...oh, and I would be all over a week’s worth of Sienkiewicz-drawn Peanuts strips. His kite-eating tree would be one vicious bastard.
The storyline that just finished in issue #10 - Steve Rogers is accused in a wrongful death civil suit dating back to the 40s, with Jen representing Steve and Matt Murdock as the prosecutor's attorney - was outstanding, proving that court room action can be written just as compellingly as superheroic action. It also culminates in one of the best Captain America fight scenes I've ever seen (and remember, this is the current much-closer-to-his-actual-age Steve Rogers, here).
Also, Patsy gets to use her stealth suit. She looks good in black. Just sayin'.
The storyline that just finished in issue #10 - Steve Rogers is accused in a wrongful death civil suit dating back to the 40s, with Jen representing Steve and Matt Murdock as the prosecutor's attorney - was outstanding, proving that court room action can be written just as compellingly as superheroic action. It also culminates in one of the best Captain America fight scenes I've ever seen (and remember, this is the current much-closer-to-his-actual-age Steve Rogers, here).
Also, Patsy gets to use her stealth suit. She looks good in black. Just sayin'.
Comments
Stylized art ≠ popular art.
With She-Hulk, he was trying something different and more design-oriented with a flatter, deader line, and it’s not what most superhero fans want to see. Especially when it comes to heroes of the female persuasion.
...and it will be nice the read the Black Cat as she is supposed to be, rather than the overly ambitious, "catty" crime lord, that the Spidey series are currently portraying her.
I didn't say stylized art doesn't belong in mainstream books. I said that what Allred is doing on Silver Surfer, which is itself by definition a mainstream book, fits that book well. And I stand by that statement because Silver Surfer is a cosmic book and Allred's work actually augments the alien nature of the settings and characters. He literally has an entire universe to play with and that allows him room to express himself more than if he were working on Spider-Man or Daredevil, two characters who are slightly more grounded in reality.
Personally I can't and won't comment on Kirby's artwork because I simply haven't read enough comics that he's worked on to have a relevant opinion.
I do see the point you're trying to make in that stylized artists shouldn't be segregated from working on mainstream books but I can't accept that their art should also be accepted without question. Would you want to see Bill Sienkiewicz's interpretation of the Peanuts gang?
That's not true for Marvel Universe characters. The piecework, work-for-hire nature of the work, and the desire to almost immediately have the popular characters appear in more than one book, meant that there was almost immediately no single or "right" way for a character to look. Within the first few years of the Marvel Universe, you could see The Thing drawn by Kirby and The Thing drawn by Ditko. And both were valid. So that would be true for She Hulk, too. Especially given that the character has been around for decades.
A reader can prefer one style over another, but I don't think there is an objective to how a character SHOULD be. A stylized Allred Silver Surfer is no more right than a photo realistic Alex Ross one.
(That said... I would LOVE to see a Bill Sienkiewicz Sunday Peanuts strip.)
@-)
Grown-Up Charlie Brown
I quite agree that Mike is a great fit for Silver Surfer, but I actually love his take on Spidey and DD as well.
And I'm not saying anyone’s art should be accepted without question, but likewise it shouldn’t be dismissed without question.
And here's the thing: all comic book art is stylized in some form or fashion. Photo-realism is a term used quite a bit these days—I use it myself. But even Alex Ross’ work is stylized. For me, it’s not about saying, “This style works for this, and that style works for that,” it’s about what each artist brings to the story.
For example, I love Joe Kubert’s war stories. But I love Harvey Kurtzman’s war stories just as much. Kubert is much more illustrative in his approach, while Kurtzman is more graphic, but each tell their war stories in a way that is powerful and profound. No one will ever convince me one way is better or worse than the other.
Kubert:
Kurtzman:
...oh, and I would be all over a week’s worth of Sienkiewicz-drawn Peanuts strips. His kite-eating tree would be one vicious bastard.
It's not bad!
Also, Patsy gets to use her stealth suit. She looks good in black. Just sayin'.
Charles Soule has a great issue-by-issue breakdown of the series on his blog.
Well worth the read.
I'm going to be sad to see this one end. It has been a real treat.
e
L nny
I'm glad I did. It was a surprising delight.